Giving the sound tech what they want - potential stupid question alert

[rOB]

Hi all,

I promise I have done a search of the site before asking this possibly stupid question. Looking for guidance please from the great and wise BC hive mind.

I mostly play multi-band gigs and the sound techs sometimes ask that I put a DI box in my signal chain before my amp. I believe that this keeps things simple and quick for them which is understandable. However, I use a 2 channel amp (GK MB500) for clean and dirty sounds so this doesn't really work for me.

I really don't want to cause the techs any difficulties so I suppose I have 2 options (unless anyone has other ideas), either:

1) move away from using the channels in my amp and use a preamp/drive pedal for my 2 main sounds.

2) give the sound engineer a signal after my amp into their DI box. The output options other than DI on the GK MB500 are Line Out, FX Loop Send and Tuner Out. Would any of these be suitable to go into a DI box geared up to accept instrument level signals (from the bass players in other bands)?

Any ideas or thoughts?

[scalpy]

Option 1. Going out of the DI on your amp is perfectly acceptable but if the sound guy has lots of bands to do that whole 'can I unplug some of your kit, leave it somewhere in the dark, and also, is your XLR long enough to get to here' conversation is not how to make friends and influence people!

[Guest bassman7755]

This is well worn discussion and opinions basically fall into 2 camps.

#1 sound men are god like beings and should not be questioned so just grit your teeth and accept that you FOH will be totally out of your control.

#2 asking for a before-amp DI is completely illogical (its not like they are going to insist a guitarist does this for example or that a keyboard player gives them a raw midi out put etc) and just laziness on their part so simply point at your amp informing them that it has a perfectly serviceable DI which they should use.

I fall into camp 2 - under no circumstances will I contemplate a before amp DI. OK one does have a responsibility to make sure your sound is FOH friendly so that usually means no expreme EQ settings especially no massive bass boost. Explain this to a sound guy - that you know what your doing will work with them to get a FOH friendly signal and you wont have a problem.

Edited June 18, 2017 by bassman7755

[Sean]

Tell the sound guy to use your DI out on the amp. You have a pre/post selector on the MB500 so put it to "post" and he'll get everything that is coming out of the cab.
That's what I've always done. Never even a discussion.
Oh, and a microphone on the cab too if available.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Sean

[ahpook]

Tell the sound engineer what you want and see what they say !

I've played almost all my gigs in multi-band set-ups/kit share and have been faced with this situation many times. Tell the person with the XLR in their hand that you use the amp's overdrive and you'd rather be post-amp. I they insist on pre-amp, then....well, argue if you wish but I've found it best to be no hassle.

I've ended up with a pedalboard that can give the PA a speaker-emulated signal from with all my FX included and use the on-stage amp as a monitor. The sound tech gets a good signal, I get a good FOH sound and I don't need to worry about what I play through.

Oh, and it's not a stupid question - it's a fine line you have to tread sometimes between not making too much work and getting a sound your happy with.

Edited June 18, 2017 by ahpook

[gjones]

On the back of your GK500, you have a DI out as well. You also have a little button marked post and pre (you'll see the button on the back). If you choose pre, the DI out acts just like a clean DI box and any fiddling with your EQ will not affect this signal. If you choose post, then all EQ adustments that you make will affect the signal. You need to choose post so that you can use both channels, boost effect etc and all changes, that you make to your on stage sound, will be sent to the desk.

[Byo]

Always have a chat with the sound engineer and see what is "cooking".
If your amp is an important part of your tone and you have the capability of using its DI, why should you not be able to use it live?

Engineers may be picky sometimes but being nice helps and lets face it, its just unplugging an XLR from a DI box and plugging it back to your amp, quick line/level check and good to go.

My setup is similar to ahpook's as I use my board to feed the FOH a good quality sound and use the backline amp as a stage monitor. This as proven to be the best option both in quality of FOH sound and hassle-free for the engineer (and me!).

Edited June 19, 2017 by Byo

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

If an engineer gives you a DI to be placed before the amp an alarm should go off. Either he doesn't care about duplicating your tone in the PA or he's technically ignorant. The guys who know what they're doing and care how you sound will DI post-preamp if they can, and will mic as well, the one for the lows, the other for the mids and highs. Imagine what would happen if they expected a guitar player to go to a DI in any way, shape or form.

[Lozz196]

Exactly as Bill says, right down to the angry red face.

[chris_b]

In a multi band environment, it's entirely reasonable for the sound guy to want to simplify things. The speed of change over will always be what he's judged on by his boss and probably the audience. He'll be used to working with some dubious characters who don't have a clue and just want to make noise. So of course he'll want to minimise any stupidness.

It's also right that you fight for, and achieve, your sound. IMO either of your options (pedal or post EQ) would work and I don't believe that either would cause the sound guy any issues. Can you try these options at rehearsals and see which one you prefer? The post EQ DI (the post DI button) requires no extra equipment so would be my preferred option but maybe a pedal(s) would be more flexible and a bonus would be the extra sounds that will become available.


Edit for spelling

Edited June 19, 2017 by chris_b

[Lozz196]

Yep, I always DI from my pedal rather than the amp, as much of the time I`m not using my amp/cab anyway. That way I know that FOH gets what I want the audience to hear, as different amps/cabs really do colour the sound a lot. Good point there Chris.

[PaulWarning]

Don't play many multiband bills but when I do they sometimes want everybody to use the same amp for this reason I use an Zoom B1on pedal to get 'my sound' saves an awful lot of hassle, it can always go before any DI box that's being used

[chris_b]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1497862066' post='3320859']
. . . . but maybe a pedal(s) would be more flexible and a bonus would be the extra sounds that will become available.[/quote]

Carrying a pedal would make you independent of the amp for your sounds. You could then change amps without affecting how you sound.



Edit. . . . I see we're all thinking along the same lines here.

Edited June 19, 2017 by chris_b

[damo]

A pre Di is fine and sometimes will give you more bottom end, but he (sound guy) should always give you the option of a mic to catch the actual sound of your amp/cab. if you let him know in advance i.e at least a day before it shouldn't be a problem.

[Phil Starr]

As someone who ran sound for years before learning to play I'd say try to see it from both sides.

Multi band setups are a real pain for the sound guy. You usually don't know what you are getting and often are told one thing by the promoter only to be faced with extra band members or additional instruments at the last minute. Half the band members won't tell you what they want and others won't stop telling you for long enough for you to actually go about giving it to them. No chance to sound check usually and you want to turn the bands round quickly so the audience get a good show. Add into that the adrenaline/nerves fueled short fuses a lot of the performers are running on and the sound becomes the art of the possible.

Then there's a difference in perspective. My priority is the [b]band[/b] sounds good, not just one individual band member. If I've got twenty mins to turn the band around then just getting everyone on stage with a feed to the desk, checking everyone is making a sound despite half the band turning up with dodgy leads and intermittently working gear can sometimes be a job in itself. I want to give the band everything they want and I personally love the rush and the problem solving but there's a limit to how much is possible. Forgive me if sometimes I seem a bit harassed.

If you as a band are organised you'll get more of what you want. Appoint a spokesperson for the whole band so I only need to have one conversation, tell me what you want, keep it simple, preferably have a short list and try and talk to me well before the change over, preferably when I'm less busy. Be prepared to compromise, multi band, one off gigs are never going to be perfect.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Phil Starr

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1497820683' post='3320743']

#2 asking for a before-amp DI is completely illogical ([b]its not like they are going to insist a guitarist does this[/b] for example or that a keyboard player gives them a raw midi out put etc)
[/quote]

Well...never say never, and all that - I've recently been offered a slot on a gig where we've been told expressly not not to bring any amps at all, due to the venue's licence ([i]apparently[/i]). So both bass and lead guitar would have to be DIed...needless to say I'm leaning towards declining this one...

[xgsjx]

I'd love to see a soundy in my situation. I have a valve amp with no DI & have no DI pedals, so the only option is to mic me up.

Saying this, I play in a church too & I go directly into a DI box & use IEM & no amp. My plan is to get either a DI box to go after the amp or get a pre amp pedal with DI.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1497872428' post='3320957']
I've recently been offered a slot on a gig where we've been told expressly not not to bring any amps at all
[/quote]That's OK if there's a house backline, and the gear isn't junk. I'd certainly want to know before booking it. They should have a printed handout of what's there.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[mcnach]

[quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1497872428' post='3320957']
Well...never say never, and all that - I've recently been offered a slot on a gig where we've been told expressly not not to bring any amps at all, due to the venue's licence ([i]apparently[/i]). So both bass and lead guitar would have to be DIed...needless to say I'm leaning towards declining this one...
[/quote]

One of our guitarists uses a Zoom box DI'd, he stopped bringing amps ages ago. It sounds good enough and he always gets a decent mix on his monitor. If I was guaranteed a monitor that could handle bass, I would probably do the same.

[EliasMooseblaster]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1497874341' post='3320978']
That's OK if there's a house backline, and the gear isn't junk. I'd certainly want to know before booking it. They should have a printed handout of what's there.
[/quote]

Oh, we've done plenty of gigs with house backline - some definitely better than others! But this time they've actually specified "due to restrictions, guitars are all DIed, no amplifiers."

[chris_b]

I was told I had to DI on one gig. When I got there I discovered it was to keep the neighbours happy as the gig didn't have a music licence!

[Lozz196]

Good point there Phil, it certainly helps all if the band are prepared for what they specifically want from each instrument, rather than just giving a vague clue/idea. That`s why I use my preamp pedal, it doesn`t matter what amp or cab I`m using, I don`t have any eq or volume to adjust for the sound-person, they can just mix me in irrespective of what I do with the amp on stage.

To assist with this we also give the sound-person a mic-chart detailing line-up, how many vocal mics needed, and what vocals/instruments each of us would like in our individual monitors. Just makes things that little bit easier.

[gillento]

[quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1497824616' post='3320769']
....

I've ended up with a pedalboard that can give the PA a speaker-emulated signal from with all my FX included and use the on-stage amp as a monitor. The sound tech gets a good signal, I get a good FOH sound and I don't need to worry about what I play through.

....
[/quote]

That's my take as well. This way I can even skip bringing an amp/cab depending on the venue.

[ahpook]

[quote name='gillento' timestamp='1497879939' post='3321054']
That's my take as well. This way I can even skip bringing an amp/cab depending on the venue.
[/quote]

Very much - useful at practices too if you're using the place's amps.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1497874581' post='3320988']
they've actually specified "due to restrictions, guitars are all DIed, no amplifiers."
[/quote]They should spin some CDs with a couple of blokes playing air guitar.