PaulWarning Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 on the subject of flattened notes, I know my theory is sadly lacking but the note that makes a chord a 7th is not in the major scale, something about dominant scale, it always strikes me as odd, but it sounds ok, almost like well it doesn't follow the rules so we'll make up a new one up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 (edited) [quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1500623804' post='3339115']...almost like well it doesn't follow the rules so we'll make up a new one up [/quote] But that's exactly what happened (and continues to happen...). It doesn't obey the original [i]classical [/i]rules, but once dominant scales and Major/Minor chords started to be 'allowed' (ie: used..!), the rules were updated to reflect this... [quote]...[color=#242729]Early on in common practice music the V7 chord construction was frequently encountered (note: the dominant seventh of the current key is meant...); over time,the name "dominant seventh" came to be applied to [/color][i]any[/i][color=#242729] major triad with a flattened seventh degree, even when one is not dealing with the dominant of the current tonality.[/color] C7 is, in the most literal sense, the dominant triad, with an added seventh, in the key of F major. One of the most common uses of the dominant, fifth (V), chord is in a perfect cadence, V->I. Although this is done with just triads, including the seventh of the dominant chord reinforces the finality of the cadence. Over time, the designation of these "dominant seventh" chords expanded to any (major) chord involving the flattened seventh degree...[/quote] The 7th chord with all diatonic notes (ie: a 'B' in the key of C...) would be a Maj7. There are other 7th chords, too. Edited July 21, 2017 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 (edited) In the key of 'C', the dominant G7 chord (scale) shares all the notes of the 'C' Major scale. EDIT: Sorry must have posted without seeing quoted post above. Edited July 21, 2017 by lowdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 Its all getting a bit too technical for yir average bassist. All we want to know is how to play it and does it sound good. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 [quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1500636732' post='3339251'] Its all getting a bit too technical for yir average bassist. All we want to know is how to play it and does it sound good. Dave [/quote]yep, if it sounds good it is good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 [quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1500638826' post='3339265'] yep, if it sounds good it is good [/quote] ... and the theory will adjust to explain why..! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdown Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 (edited) "If it sounds good, it is good", is really just one's opinion. I mean, as a parent, would you want to hurt a child's feelings ? It's not good for their confidence. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpJ6anurfuw[/media] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDZZEfrRbdw[/media] Edited July 21, 2017 by lowdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doonaboon Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1500638977' post='3339267'] ... and the theory will adjust to explain why..! [/quote] never a truer word said! there's a clue in the name 'theory' I think ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 (edited) [quote name='doonaboon' timestamp='1500644298' post='3339344'] never a truer word said! there's a clue in the name 'theory' I think ;-) [/quote] Indeed... [quote]Theory... Earlier in this sense was theorical (n.), late 15c. Sense of "principles or methods of a science or art" (rather than its practice) is first recorded 1610's (as in music theory, which is the science of musical composition, apart from practice or performance). Sense of "an intelligible explanation based on observation and reasoning" is from 1630's.[/quote] Edited July 21, 2017 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doonaboon Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 [quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1500651049' post='3339407'] Indeed... [/quote] Was being tongue in cheek with the 'theory' comment, just to be clear! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drTStingray Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 (edited) [quote name='doonaboon' timestamp='1500652665' post='3339424'] Was being tongue in cheek with the 'theory' comment, just to be clear! [/quote] It's pretty straightforward to be honest. E natural minor (aeolian mode) has a flat 3rd note (G), flat 6th note (C) and flat 7th note (D) E dominant 7th has the colourful notes G# (3rd) and D (flat 7th) as well as an E. The mode around this is called mixolydian (sometimes called blues scale) - it also appears a lot in jazz and funk. Jean Genie is in the first of these - probably!!! But the use of dominant 7ths often is possibly why the G# sounds reasonable to us as well - as stated by others theory is theory - useful to know in some situations but it is theory so not worth getting too hung up on!! Edited July 21, 2017 by drTStingray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 No matter how many times that gets explained to me it still boils down to what was said earlier If it sounds good, it is good. Simples Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gottastopbuyinggear Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 [quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1500660006' post='3339488'] The mode around this is called mixolydian (sometimes called blues scale) [/quote] In danger of showing myself up here as I have very little theory knowledge, but i can't see how mixolydian mode can be called the blues scale - mixolydian is major scale with flattened 7th, blues is minor pentatonic with flat 5th? Genuine question - not trolling! With regard to Jean Genie, I'm sticking to G on the way up, G# on the way down, and it's come as a huge disappointment to me to find out that almost everyone else has been playing it wrong for years. Okay, now I might be trolling 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricksterphil Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 I get to sing lead vocal on Jean Genie......I was stitched up by our singer. So I just flap my hands and hope no-one notices the bum notes. We decided to play G A G in our version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 [quote name='ricksterphil' timestamp='1500717315' post='3339749'] I get to sing lead vocal on Jean Genie......I was stitched up by our singer. So I just flap my hands and hope no-one notices the bum notes. We decided to play G A G in our version. [/quote] Best reply yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricksterphil Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 [quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1500727957' post='3339835'] Best reply yet [/quote] Thanks dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casapete Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 11 hours ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said: For the past six months I've been alternating which way I play it. No one has noticed and there are a couple in the band who I though might have. Just one of those songs that doesn't seem to make much difference either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 On 1/3/2018 at 13:04, hiram.k.hackenbacker said: For the past six months I've been alternating which way I play it. No one has noticed and there are a couple in the band who I though might have. Just one of those songs that doesn't seem to make much difference either way. Or nobody watches the bass player. Sorry i'll collect my coat on the way out. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 (edited) Maybe you're just that good at hiding mistakes maybe the band didn't want to embarrass you I'm getting a bit carried away now but its odd that the band never noticed. If anyone they should have. Give them a row for not paying attention to what the band are playing. That'll teach em Does this confirm how important bass is in a band ? Edited January 4, 2018 by dmccombe7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I remember you saying you were gonna trial that but had completely forgotten all about it. To be honest its been that long since i played Jean Genie i can't remember how i played it. I'll need to go back thru this thread now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missis sumner Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 (edited) I've possibly got this next on my list, now that I've escaped my tyrant band leader (escaped with the singer and rhythm guitarist - tyrant leader effectively thrown out of his own band 😙) So, from the top, is it: |----------|-9-9-9-7-7-7-6-6-6-------|----------0--0--|---------0---0-|| |----------|-------------------9-7-6-|-----------7----|-----------7---|| |----------|-------------------------|-7--7-7-7-------|-7--7--7-------|| |----------|-------------------------|----------------|---------------|| ? Edited January 14, 2020 by missis sumner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missis sumner Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 Have I got too many Es in the second bar? 😆 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, missis sumner said: Have I got too many Es in the second bar? 😆 Yep. Its not as shown above with the open G and Ab on 7. Its simply open G and A. There's a vid clip of Trevor Bolder explaining how he played the song and the G & A were played on the G string. In the first bar the last 3 notes i play are B, Bb, A (9, 8, 7) but not sure if i'm doing it right. Edited January 14, 2020 by dmccombe7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 (edited) I love that this is running on all this time, six pages and still going Just listening to the song he doesn't play the same thing all the way through and I doubt he plays it the same way every time. The only other Bowie song I play is Rebel Rebel and that has variation on a basically repetitive bass line all the way through too. I think that's just the way he plays. There's an interview kicking around somewhere where he said he doesn't know what he played on the recording so I guess that would be definitive. My take is that on the first verse coming out of the intro he definitely plays the G# and then repeats for that verse, later in the song he does play G and sometimes just E and A. Playing loose sounds fine in this song and as we have all found out no-one notices. That little 9-7-6 triplet on the intro I find tricky if I haven't played it for a while and I naturally keep that shape in the first verse, I guess he did the same. After that I just tend to keep the groove going and my fingers wander into paying the G and that gives it a bluesy feel. I don't think music theory informed the playing when it was recorded Just seen the above, there might be more than one clip doing the rounds Edited January 14, 2020 by Phil Starr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 1 minute ago, Phil Starr said: I love that this is running on all this time, sig pages and still going Just listening to the song he doesn't play the same thing all the way through and I doubt he plays it the same way every time. The only other Bowie song I play is Rebel Rebel and that has variation on a basically repetitive bass line all the way through too. I think that's just the way he plays. There's an interview kicking around somewhere where he said he doesn't know what he played on the recording so I guess that would be definitive. My take is that on the first verse coming out of the intro he definitely plays the G# and then repeats for that verse, later in the song he does play G and sometimes just E and A. Playing loose sounds fine in this song and as we have all found out no-one notices. That little 9-7-6 triplet on the intro I find tricky if I haven't played it for a while and I naturally keep that shape in the first verse, I guess he did the same. After that I just tend to keep the groove going and my fingers wander into paying the G and that gives it a bluesy feel. I don't think music theory informed the playing when it was recorded The VID clip i posted earlier in this thread of Trevor explaining how he played it has since been blocked for copyright but your explanation above would explain why we all have different versions in our heads. One other small note is that Rebel Rebel was Herbie Flowers on bass and i watched him play it with a local band he knows and he also changed the riff regularly throughout the song but still retaining the rhythm. Incredible bassist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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