Les Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 We have an Americana show/image, we advertise ourselves as "The North Wests only cowboy rock band". It's all cowboy boots, cowboy hats and "howdy y'all" we dress up and put a show on that's generally very well received and it's tongue in cheek. Did an Americana fest yesterday and set our little camp up selling our wares, chucked the photo's on facebook as you do and this one started a little debate about our flags. Started with an old school friend who now lives in Canada saying we'd be in trouble in North America with this, and I accept it's a big thing over there and has been for a while and carried on with a comment from our agent saying it's not our fault they're now seen as a symbol of white supremacy but it is and he advocated changing the flags. I have a fairly healthy grip on the terminally offended and cyber flounce brigade but we are in the entertainment business and we would be absolutely mortified if we actually caused offence with these. The reason we have them is that love it or loath it it's a really cool looking flag and instantly recognisable to most people even though they probably don't even know what exactly it is. We also have the Texas flags and they are quite nice but not instantly recognisable to our British audiences. Must add that we have NEVER had an adverse comment about them and there was no venom whatsoever in the facebook discussion so I'm not stinging over this but it has made me think. I really don't want to start a debate over the situation in America about these symbols, I'm just looking for some sage advice and opinions from my peers in the entertainment business. In fact it's just occurred to me that the admods on here may not think it appropriate and if that's the case I apologise and please pull the post. Is it time to lose the flag ? ta Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Maybe just go for a regular Stars and Stripes flag? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Apple Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 This is an interesting one, as there are all sorts of Confederate flags. For me they represent the Rock n' Roll Rebel type thing and Lynyrd Skynyrd. I'm not to up on the American Civil war, but I bet it's not as clear cut as slavery/white supremacy/North good, South bad type thing. You could either learn your history and use that to justify its use, or just replace it with Old Glory. Still Americana innit? Shame tho, it's such a cool flag and I'm uneasy about destroying elements of history to suit our agenda now. Isn't that what the Nazi's did? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Apple Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='Les' timestamp='1503312959' post='3357042'] In fact it's just occurred to me that the admods on here may not think it appropriate and if that's the case I apologise and please pull the post. [/quote] I think it's a worthwhile debate as long as we can keep it civil and not civil war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I loved them on the General Lee in Dukes of Hazard (not the crap remake) I'd never use them now. The world has changed and that flag is now being used not in a celebration of general redneck-ness, but back to it's original unpleasant use. It's far too easy to lose your fanbase. It just needs 1 person to spam facebook with "so and so is racist" and you are knackered. You'd probably get more fans by dumping the flag and publicly explaining why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Personally I wouldn't use them, especially given the current alt-right/Nazi resurgence. Your opinions may differ though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Bay Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 If I saw that with a band I have to be honest and say it would affect my opinion of them, and not in a positive way. Some of the 'cyber flounce brigade' as you term them are idiots but if you take the time to research the history of the flag and it's connections you will see that it isn't something many people would want to attach themselves to (well at least I hope not) and as mentioned above it has been reclaimed by the far right in America. Would it stop me going to see a band? Probably no but I would look into the context more before going, would it encourage me to see them? 100% No, Would I book them? Again 100% no as I wouldn't want other people to assume that it's something I would identify with. I am sure there will be loads of other views, but trying to look at it from a band view and a punter view I can't see a single positive in retaining it. There are loads of alternatives, some early incarnations of the Stars and Stripes for example that are just as recognisable but without the baggage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 (edited) [quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1503314783' post='3357056'] This is an interesting one, as there are all sorts of Confederate flags. For me they represent the Rock n' Roll Rebel type thing and Lynyrd Skynyrd. I'm not to up on the American Civil war, but[i][u][b] I bet it's not as clear cut as slavery/white supremacy/North good, South bad type thing[/b][/u][/i]. You could either learn your history and use that to justify its use, or just replace it with Old Glory. Still Americana innit? Shame tho, it's such a cool flag and I'm uneasy about destroying elements of history to suit our agenda now. Isn't that what the Nazi's did? [/quote] I think it is - the Americans are currently debating tearing down confederate leader statues - and some states have removed them already. They've been there for a hundred years and now a lot of people are unhappy about the actions of those leaders. Funnily enough - it's probably caused more Americans to be educated about the civil war, which pretty much did start over the issue of slavery. Still - no one needs to be associated with this sort of thing: Edited August 21, 2017 by fretmeister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fftc Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 (edited) To me the confederate flag represents slavery, repression, racism. That is what the people who fought under that banner were fighting for. If you fly that flag then you are either naive if you don't believe or understand that is what it represents, or are showing support for those values. A certain amount of naivety can be excused, but supporting those values can not. For the avoidance of doubt perhaps you should lose the flags. I certainly would not want to associate with it in any way. Edited August 21, 2017 by fftc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnyboy Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 ... blimey! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted August 21, 2017 Author Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1503314783' post='3357056'] This is an interesting one, as there are all sorts of Confederate flags. For me they represent the Rock n' Roll Rebel type thing and Lynyrd Skynyrd. I'm not to up on the American Civil war, but I bet it's not as clear cut as slavery/white supremacy/North good, South bad type thing. You could either learn your history and use that to justify its use, or just replace it with Old Glory. Still Americana innit? Shame tho, it's such a cool flag and I'm uneasy about destroying elements of history to suit our agenda now. Isn't that what the Nazi's did? [/quote] To be honest Billy this pretty much sums up my opinion on the flag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Browning Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I guess times move on. I, as a kid, used to find 'Til death us do part very funny. I didn't equate it with any form of racism (indeed, the writers have stated that the target was Alf Garnett's ignorance) but there's a reason it's not shown now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 And as for any comments about destroying history.. You don't keep statues of dictators. You don't keep flying flags of their regimes. That would be celebrating them. But of course you keep the knowledge of what they did, and they take their place in history records - destroying history would only occur if their existence was removed from non-celebratory texts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojo Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Unfortunately the flag is now being used for more modern purposes and it might be time for sensible people to move on from it Sadly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 It's not a modern purpose - it's the original purpose, after it has been sanitised by recent pop culture. Put it another way - if there was a modern band playing traditional Cambodian music, would I attend if they flew the Khmer Rouge flag? Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leftybassman392 Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='fftc' timestamp='1503315529' post='3357067'] To me the confederate flag represents slavery, repression, racism. [/quote] Not to mention declaring war on their own government in support of these values. Wanting to keep it because you think it looks cool is frankly a bit naive. Given the febrile atmosphere over the pond in relation to this issue, how long do you think it will take for people to start taking sides over here? Hard not to see it as a headache you don't need TBH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Just a thought though.. I don't know where you are, but if you are in a strong UKIP area you might get more punters by keeping the flags. You could then take advantage and really rip them off on the ticket prices. Would serve them right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 (edited) [quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1503314783' post='3357056'] This is an interesting one, as there are all sorts of Confederate flags. For me they represent the Rock n' Roll Rebel type thing and Lynyrd Skynyrd. I'm not to up on the American Civil war, but I bet it's not as clear cut as slavery/white supremacy/North good, South bad type thing. You could either learn your history and use that to justify its use, or just replace it with Old Glory. Still Americana innit? Shame tho, it's such a cool flag and I'm uneasy about destroying elements of history to suit our agenda now. Isn't that what the Nazi's did? [/quote] Let's not beat around the bush... the civil war was about slavery and the confederate flag is the flag of the pro-slavery side. Design-wise, it's cool... but I wouldn't touch it with a barge poll. Not ever. Edited August 21, 2017 by dlloyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricksterphil Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I think by asking the question, you've given yourself the answer.....which would be to lose the flag! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 (edited) [quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503315529' post='3357066'] I think it is - the Americans are currently debating tearing down confederate leader statues - and some states have removed them already. They've been there for a hundred years and now a lot of people are unhappy about the actions of those leaders. [/quote] Most were actually erected in the early 20th century, the 1920s and 1930s. The days of the Jim Crow laws and terrible oppression, they are a sign of that. Edited August 21, 2017 by ambient Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='Les' timestamp='1503312959' post='3357042'] I have a fairly healthy grip on the terminally offended and cyber flounce brigade but we are in the entertainment business and we would be absolutely mortified if we actually caused offence with these. The reason we have them is that love it or loath it it's a really cool looking flag and instantly recognisable to most people even though they probably don't even know what exactly it is.[/quote] I'm not offended by it, but I would assume that anyone using it was either racist or ignorant of the history of that flag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Apple Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1503315529' post='3357066'] I think it is [/quote] I'm not saying that war was not about the above, just that (I should imagine) there is more than meets the eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Apple Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1503317052' post='3357089'] Let's not beat around the bush... the civil war was about slavery and the confederate flag is the flag of the pro-slavery side. [/quote] Can you recommend a book on the subject? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 [quote name='ambient' timestamp='1503317247' post='3357092'] Most were actually erected in the early 20 century, the 20s and 30s. The days of the Jim Crow laws and terrible oppression, they are a sign of that. [/quote] So about a hundred years then! (I still can't cope with people born in the 1990s being allowed to drive!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Cheesy and obvious. Oh, and offensive to some people, too. Lose 'em. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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