A word of warning and request for advice

[s_u_y_*]

[quote name='Muppet' post='36960' date='Jul 25 2007, 06:07 PM']FWIW I think the stance Chris has taken is excellent and truly representative of the BW community. He's not legally obliged to act in this way which makes it all the more laudable.[/quote]

Yeah... Chris is a great guy to deal with and I think it is fantastic and honest of him to do what he did. Just sorry that it left you out of pocket mate. Put it this way, the amp I sold you was a bargain for what it was if that's any consolidation.

[Freuds_Cat]

That whole scenario sucks Chris but as others have said, full credit to you for taking the financial (and moral) responsibility.

[MB1]

MB1.

Chris,sh*t long way to go,to kick his dog!man!....id like to say sas(sold as seen), man i know your genuine,this is sh*tty.Be carefull!
ALL THE BEST!
MB1.

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='Muppet' post='36960' date='Jul 25 2007, 06:07 PM']FWIW I think the stance Chris has taken is excellent and truly representative of the BW community. He's not legally obliged to act in this way which makes it all the more laudable.[/quote]
+1 to that! Chris is a great guy and IMHO, his attitude and behaviour over this issue is a perfect example of what makes the Basschat community what it is - almost without exception, a privelige and a pleasure to be part of.

Have to say Chris that I feel for you on this one mate! And I definitely would support these comments below by Bald Eagle:

[i]"If you're sure he's pulled a trick on you I'd name & shame the seller here 'Without prejudice' then on every other bass forum on the planet. Gauging by his defensive response I'd say he knew it was dodgy in the first place probably why it was bumped on the bay in the first place, what an A.Hole.

Just sleep tight on knowing what goes around comes around."[/i]

The key phrase there is 'Gauging by his defensive response'. Sums up the situation perfectly to me. Legally, financially, geographically, I think this situation is too dificult to pursue and will only take up valuable time and energy which I'm sure you could put to good use elsewhere. But getting the bass properly repaired would be a start point to making things a little better...

All the best and look forward to seeing you at the Bash on Aug 18th.

Nik

[Beedster]

Nice one folks, many thanks. I've just had a damn good laugh, especially at the post suggesting that my photo makes me look like a stand up guy . Seriously though, the sentiments expressed above are greatly appreciated, but as I said, it's not so bad really, the bass plays and sounds great, I just won't be able to sell it again knowing what I know. So, I've got a Flea Bass for life. Could be worse!!!!!!
I'm already planning getting the repair done professionally and then getting either a black or sunburst refin (I have to say that the blue sparkle finish lost its novelty value quite quickly). Not sure if the finish can be easily removed from the graphite headstock 'cos sunburst with blue sparkly headstock would look odd to say the least , but I'm sure something can be done
Cheers
Chris

[The Funk]

Just to clear up a couple of things it's not too late to make a claim against the US seller. That clause from the listing you quoted above could constitute a warranty that the bass is in good condition (and not in need of repair).

The trouble is, as other people have pointed out, it's a bloody complex process suing someone from another legal jurisdiction. Without doing any research on it, I think you could probably sue him here (as you're a consumer) but you'd need permission from a court to issue a claim against him in the first place, and then you'd have legal proceedings and then, if you win, you'd have the problem of enforcing a judgment against him. If he has no assets in this country (and why would he?), you'd have to go to America to enforce your judgment against him. And this would all take lots of time and cost more than the £250 repair job.

As for liability to the third buyer in the chain, there's no reason why he couldn't recover against the person you sold it to, while that person could then recover the same amount from you. No reason whatsoever.

And let me just add to all the other comments saying good for you for taking responsibility for this when noone else will.

[Beedster]

[quote name='The Funk' post='37184' date='Jul 26 2007, 09:49 AM']The trouble is, as other people have pointed out, it's a bloody complex process suing someone from another legal jurisdiction.[/quote]

Cheers The Funk, pretty much accepted that now. I think the dealer knows he did wrong but knows I can't get him. However, next time I'm in the USA I'm gonna go a little out of my way and pop in and see him
A`lesson learned.
Chris

[martthebass]

Beedster,
Don't know if this is any help but a few years ago I had a similar problem with a purchase out of the US with Computer equipment. Tho cosmetically adequate the hardware was none functional but it took a couple of weeks to ascertain this. The company involved also invoked a 'time limited' return policy which it hadn't stated when I was purchasing, in fact there was no way I could qualify as the delivery period was beyond the 'limitation'.
The company got abusive when I got 'testy' and entered silent mode. I was lucky enough to get a US solicitor who was employed in the US by the company I worked for at the time to get involved - it was amazing how quickly my funds were refunded. Is this something you might have access to?

Alternatively how did you make the purchase (sorry I haven't read the whole thread and I'm in the middle of typing), Mastercard/Visa will normally intervene if you make a convincing case.

If a bass was represented to me as 9+/superb I would expect it to be BOTH functionally and cosmetically 9+ not just pretty paintwork - you are not in the wrong.

If none of the above works damning the B*****D on Talkbass etc might be worth considering - see if he is prepared to shell out on lawyers.

[Beedster]

[quote name='martthebass' post='40180' date='Aug 1 2007, 08:14 PM']Beedster,
Don't know if this is any help but a few years ago I had a similar problem with a purchase out of the US with Computer equipment. Tho cosmetically adequate the hardware was none functional but it took a couple of weeks to ascertain this. The company involved also invoked a 'time limited' return policy which it hadn't stated when I was purchasing, in fact there was no way I could qualify as the delivery period was beyond the 'limitation'.
The company got abusive when I got 'testy' and entered silent mode. I was lucky enough to get a US solicitor who was employed in the US by the company I worked for at the time to get involved - it was amazing how quickly my funds were refunded. Is this something you might have access to?

Alternatively how did you make the purchase (sorry I haven't read the whole thread and I'm in the middle of typing), Mastercard/Visa will normally intervene if you make a convincing case.

If a bass was represented to me as 9+/superb I would expect it to be BOTH functionally and cosmetically 9+ not just pretty paintwork - you are not in the wrong.

If none of the above works damning the B*****D on Talkbass etc might be worth considering - see if he is prepared to shell out on lawyers.[/quote]

Hi Mart
Many thanks. I've taken some advice and may well have a crack at a legal route, I may not win but as far as I'm concerned it's worth it if only to stop the guy doing it again to someone else. I'll keep you posted
Chris

[Beedster]

No luck in getting any reparation from the ebay seller. However, I've given the Flea Bass some usage and had no problems with the neck at all. Action and tuning stay perfect and sound wise it's everything a Flea is suposed to be. I've had a lengthy dialogue with Modulus, who recommended that I let Martin Simms have it for a while to make good the original repair. It shall return in about a month with an even more secure neck pocket, a black body/headstock and a tort pickguard. Can't wait.
It's gonna cost around £350 in toal but the bass will be good as new, and not sparkly anymore. Could have been worse.
Modulus Customer Support were extremely helpful by the way.
Chris

[jwbassman]

Hey Chris

Good to see you getting some closeure on this - hope the 'new' bass is great, looking forward to the piccys

John

[Hamster]

Are you at that stage where you are ready to name & shame?

Hamster

[Johngh]

Chris, I'm pleased that you are getting the Flea sorted, you are doing the right thing. I was going to suggest taking it to a decent luthier, but its the only option really.
I've just bought a Sei that needs a bit of TLC so its off to Shuker. Its always a risk buying anything secondhand, but I will never buy anything off Evilbay or from across the water because the risk just magnifies itself 1000 fold if anything goes wrong.
Your right though, folk on here on the whole are a gunuine bunch, and well done for getting the bass sorted even though you had no legal obligation to do so, speaks volumes of you mate !

[Stag]

Id love to see the (re)finished article - it will look absolutely gorgeous when done I imagine and therefore be worth playing by the mighty Beedster! Lookin forward to the pics. You deserve it to look the business, man.

The more i read on here the more I get worried about evilBay. Nobody is cute and fluffy anymore are they? Sob.

[Muppet]

£350 seems a pretty good deal! It's gonna be a corker when it's done!

S

[bass_ferret]

What no sparkle

[grosa]

Not that in my line of work id ever condone such behaviour....
but i still reckon you should send the yikey (american pikey) tw*t a box of varied turds and squirrels heads.

[Bassman7]

[quote name='Beedster' post='36928' date='Jul 25 2007, 04:20 PM']Hi synaesthesia
Thanks for your advice above. As I think you've implied, sometimes the harsh facts, unpleasant as they may be, are worth pointing out.

Just to make clear, I have dealt with the first buyer on a number of occasions and, the way I see it, had I not taken responsibility for this I would have dropped him in it badly. I would also guess that logically had this happened, he would then have sought reparation from me anyway. Also, with one exception, every deal I've done through Bassworld or Basschat has been a very pleasant and affirming experience, that is, I have not been ripped off, overcharged, p*ssed about or similar by anyone, and have met some bloody good guys (when I say affirming I mean that BW/BC people have acted the way I'd hope they would act). There are a couple of bad'uns on here but they tend to stand out from the crowd in the same way one of those modified Precisions that German guy on ebay keeps trying to sell stand out from the real thing, so I keep clear of them.

The general consensus above seems to be that I have little chance of compensation and as such I've learned a bloody good lesson, namely that I will never buy a bass again without playing it first, and I will probably even then have any such bass checked by a professional within days of the deal. The Flea bass in question is, despite the problems, still bloody awesome, so I'm not making any sort of grand charitable gesture here. I would certainly rather not spend the money on a bass that I wasn't really using but things could be a lot worse, if I spend a further few hundred I'm still gonna have a great bass, and you never know, I might get a Chilis covers gig

Thanks for the suggestions above. I'm resigned to not getting any money back from the dealer, but if anyone has any good ideas re. expressing my feelings towards the guy, let me know
Chris[/quote]

Chris

Why not let Ian at SMART know about this as he's been working with Modulus since 1998 and as this affects his UK market I'm sure he'd be interested in reporting such bad dealer behaviour direct to Modulus themselves? I've had the best service and pricing from SMART over the years and they really care about this sort of thing. Might be worthwhile...certainly won't do any harm.

[Beedster]

[quote name='Bassman7' post='72161' date='Oct 10 2007, 01:55 PM']Chris

Why not let Ian at SMART know about this as he's been working with Modulus since 1998 and as this affects his UK market I'm sure he'd be interested in reporting such bad dealer behaviour direct to Modulus themselves? I've had the best service and pricing from SMART over the years and they really care about this sort of thing. Might be worthwhile...certainly won't do any harm.[/quote]

Hi Bassman
Thanks for the reply. Yes, I have spoken to Modulus. Had the bass been sold as 'new' they would have acted. It was however sold as 'used but 10/10'. Yes, SMART are very good, although I still find it amazing, given how many of these basses can be bought off the shelf in the USA, that it's a 6 month wait here with 50% of the cost up front? There is a also a guy who uses this forum - whose name I won't mention lest he gets accused of forum abuse by the curtain tuggers - who every now and again gets new Flea Basses from the USA and sells them via abay. Seems SMART, despite being very polite and friendly, could up their game a little re stock? Would have saved me a whole load of trouble!
Worth it though!
Chris

[LukeFRC]

kudos to you beedster.
im sure your good actions will impress kylie if nout else

[OldGit]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='72178' date='Oct 10 2007, 02:26 PM']kudos to you beedster.
im sure your good actions will impress kylie if nout else[/quote]

The other Kylie was filming Dr Who about 50 yards from my front door last week ... My wife and kid chatted to Dave T and got a picture but left before Saint Kylie of Undertogs arrived ... Shame

[SMART]

[quote name='Beedster' post='72174' date='Oct 10 2007, 02:18 PM']Hi Bassman
Thanks for the reply. Yes, I have spoken to Modulus. Had the bass been sold as 'new' they would have acted. It was however sold as 'used but 10/10'. Yes, SMART are very good, although I still find it amazing, given how many of these basses can be bought off the shelf in the USA, that it's a 6 month wait here with 50% of the cost up front? There is a also a guy who uses this forum - whose name I won't mention lest he gets accused of forum abuse by the curtain tuggers - who every now and again gets new Flea Basses from the USA and sells them via abay. Seems SMART, despite being very polite and friendly, could up their game a little re stock? Would have saved me a whole load of trouble!
Worth it though!
Chris[/quote]

Chris

We'd all love to be able to buy our dream instruments as soon as we would like and I for one would perhaps feel the same way if the bass I dreamt of was only available on a long lead-time.

Perhaps some real context to the availability of Modulus instruments in the UK would be helpful for everyone after reading the above and related thread I have looked at over the past few days.

We've been working exclusively with Modulus now for nearly 10 years (our 10 years anniversary with them and the Turner workshop in 2008). Some years ago now, Modulus took a decision to shed its production of Genesis guitars and concentrate fully on bass guitar manufacture. As a result of a lot of inventory tying up a large sum of cash flow Modulus decided to reduce inventory to nil and only make to custom order. They have purposely kept the company to a relatively small size in instrument manufacturing terms in order to control costs better for the bean counters but more importantly to be able to maintain their passion for the highest quality instruments that can be produced for bass players which invariably suffers when companies grow too fast or just plain grow. A smaller size company meant that quality control at every level to the highest standards could be maintained. We never have any issues with the quality of any instrument that comes over as a direct consequence of this passion for excellence in every detail.

As you can imagine, working closely with our friends at the SimS Custom Shop over the years we have seen and experienced practically every high-end instrument there is and I have to say that the quality of Modulus basses is second to none, every instrument that we receive we just google over. The quality and finish of the neck is just astounding; the guy that specialises in the frets at Modulus has been doing the same job for over 14 years and it shows!

So you'd like more stock in the UK to get rid of those current long lead-times (currently running at 6 months for standard finishes and 12 for the flake finishes on the Flea Bass - the longest lead-times we've experienced from Modulus for at least the last 7-8 years due to a surge of demand in the US market; BTW the same lead-times also apply to US dealers and if any of them say different they are just saying that to get an order or they simply have stock soon to arrive that has already been on order for several months, there is no fast track dealer in the USA!)? Firstly, Modulus make strictly to custom order which as I have explained naturally restricts stock availability (think Aston Martins or Morgan cars....or the wonderful WAL basses from Pete the Fish Stevens). Secondly, whenever in recent times we do actually have some free stock that has been ordered specifically to try and bridge the gap it usually is swept up by a dead keen bass player and so then back to square one!! Note that the Flake finishes are only run about twice a year and fill up really quickly. It's the contamination and cleanup time that restricts these finishes - usually at least a day to clean up a constantly in use spray shop at Modulus (they don't sub out work!!) and so the longer lead-times for the flake runs.

With a high-end bass and custom ordered instrument it is not unusual to ask for a commitment from the buyer for something he or she has specifically ordered in some monetary terms, thus the commitment that we ask for to sort out any time wasters or customers who will not honour their order when ready, is to ask for a perfectly reasonable 50 per cent pre-payment with the balance due just prior to final shipping. It's an equitable arrangement for all involved in ordering custom built instruments. The whole process is as smooth as possible for us, Modulus and especially the customer who'll have a hassle-free experience in sourcing one of the best bass guitars available today.

To boot, if there are any movements in the Dollar/Pound exchange rate in the period from order to delivery we will always try and reflect that in the final total price which includes a Modulus hard case and 24 hour UK mainland delivery. In most cases our final prices (that may possibly be less than our website prices due to currency movements) will be less than if you sourced a new instrument heavily discounted by a US dealer say from Bass Alone in San Diego as we absorb the freight, import duty and VAT that will invariable add 25-30% to any US dealer discounted price.

I'd strongly encourage anyone who is thinking of ordering a new Modulus to talk to us as well and not leave us out of the equation. We're here as the official Modulus importer and reseller and have one of the best workshops in the world behind us for any set-ups, repairs, etc - the SimS Custom Shop. We're equally as passionate about these superb instruments as Modulus are themselves and will always strive to do our very best to support old and new customers - we like to aim for the same service, support and attitude that we'd look for ourselves if we were customers.

Ian Morton
S.M.A.R.T Distribution

Edited October 10, 2007 by SMART

[Beedster]

[quote name='SMART' post='72256' date='Oct 10 2007, 04:22 PM']Chris

We'd all love to be able to buy our dream instruments as soon as we would like and I for one would perhaps feel the same way if the bass I dreamt of was only available on a long lead-time.

Perhaps some real context to the availability of Modulus instruments in the UK would be helpful for everyone after reading the above and related thread I have looked at over the past few days.

We've been working exclusively with Modulus now for nearly 10 years (our 10 years anniversary with them and the Turner workshop in 2008).Some years ago now, Modulus took a decisive decision to shed its production of Genesis guitars and concentrate fully on bass guitar manufacture. As a result of a lot of inventory tying up a large sum of cash flow Modulus decided to reduce inventory to nil and only make to custom order. They have purposely kept the company to a relatively small size in instrument manufacturing terms in order to control costs better for the bean counters but more importantly to be able to maintain their passion for the highest quality instruments that can be produced for bass players which invariably suffers when companies grow too fast or just plain grow. A smaller size company meant that quality control at every level to the highest standards could be maintained. We never have any issues with the quality of any instrument that comes over as a direct consequence of this passion for excellence in every detail.

As you can imagine, working closely with our friends at the SimS Custom Shop over the years we have seen and experienced practically every high-end instrument there is and I have to say that the quality of Modulus basses is second to none, every instrument that we receive we just google over. The quality and finish of the neck is just astounding; the guy that specialises in the frets at Modulus has been doing the same job for over 14 years and it shows!

So you'd like more stock in the UK to get rid of those current long lead-times (currently running at 6 months for standard finishes and 12 for the flake finishes on the Flea Bass - the longest lead-times we've experienced from Modulus for at least the last 7-8 years due to a surge of demand in the US market; BTW the same lead-times also apply to US dealers and if any of them say different they are just saying that to get an order or they simply have stock soon to arrive that has already been on order for several months, there is no fast track dealer in the USA!)? Firstly, Modulus make strictly to custom order which as I have explained naturally restricts stock availability (think Aston Martins or Morgan cars....or the wonderful WAL basses from Pete the Fish Stevens). Secondly, whenever in recent times we do actually have some free stock that has been ordered specifically to try and bridge the gap it usually is swept up by a dead keen bass player and so then back to square one!! Note that the Flake finishes are only run about twice a year and fill up really quickly. It's the contamination and cleanup time that restricts these finishes - usually at least a day to clean up a constantly in use the spray shop at Modulus (they don't sub out work!!) and so the longer lead-times for the flake runs.

With a high-end bass and custom ordered instrument it is not unusual to ask for a commitment from the buyer for something he or she has specifically ordered in some monetary terms, thus the commitment that we ask for to sort out any time wasters or customers who will not honour their order when ready, is to ask for a perfectly reasonable 50 per cent pre-payment with the balance due just prior to final shipping. It's an equitable arrangement for all involved in ordering custom built instruments. The whole process is as smooth as possible for us, Modulus and especially the customer who'll have a hassle-free experience in sourcing one of the best bass guitars available today.

To boot, if there are any movements in the Dollar/Pound exchange rate in the period from order to delivery we will always try and reflect that in the final total price which includes a Modulus hard case and 24 hour UK mainland delivery. In most cases our final prices (that may possibly be less than our website prices due to currency movements) will be less than if you sourced a new instrument heavily discounted by a US dealer say from Bass Alone in San Diego as we absorb the freight, import duty and VAT that will invariable add 25-30% to any US dealer discounted price.

I'd strongly encourage anyone who is thinking of ordering a new Modulus to talk to us as well and not leave us out of the equation. We're here as the official Modulus importer and reseller and have one of the best workshops in the world behind us for any set-ups, repairs, etc - the SimS Custom Shop. We're equally as passionate about these superb instruments as Modulus are themselves and will always strive to do our very best to support old and new customers - we like to aim for the same service, support and attitude that we'd look for ourselves if we were customers.

Ian Morton
S.M.A.R.T Distribution[/quote]

Hi Ian
Thanks for the above. I didn't mean to tread on your toes and apologis of I appeared to. As I said, you and Modulus are great guys and were/are both very helpful. However, it was frustrating dealing with you both 6 months ago to be told of such long lead times (12 months for the flake finish) when US dealers at that time had over 20 on their shelves (Beaver Fenton being one who had several at the same time). OK, I was stupid/unlucky and learned my lesson the hard way, but although I think the Flea Bass is an awesome instrument, I doubt they're so difficult to make that Modulus couldn't bash out a few more so that dealers could hold stock and idiots like me don't get impatient and buy bad'uns? In fact, I'm sure SMART would be happier to have stock. We all know that emotional/impulse buying can happen very suddently, and for a number of reasons that might disappear dramatically when the words '6 months' are mentioned!
Cheers Ian
Chris

[SMART]

[quote name='Beedster' post='72267' date='Oct 10 2007, 04:52 PM']Hi Ian
Thanks for the above. I didn't mean to tread on your toes and apologis of I appeared to. As I said, you and Modulus are great guys and were/are both very helpful. However, it was frustrating dealing with you both 6 months ago to be told of such long lead times (12 months for the flake finish) when US dealers at that time had over 20 on their shelves (Beaver Fenton being one who had several at the same time). OK, I was stupid/unlucky and learned my lesson the hard way, but although I think the Flea Bass is an awesome instrument, I doubt they're so difficult to make that Modulus couldn't bash out a few more so that dealers could hold stock and idiots like me don't get impatient and buy bad'uns? In fact, I'm sure SMART would be happier to have stock. We all know that emotional/impulse buying can happen very suddently, and for a number of reasons that might disappear dramatically when the words '6 months' are mentioned!
Cheers Ian
Chris[/quote]

Chris

Me toes are OK and so no toes stepped on, we just want to be as open as possible about the supply situation and Modulus always give us a realistic and true lead-time and not one that always seems to move as with some custom shop bass specialists.

We certainly would be happier to be able to get hold of new stock quicker but please remember that Modulus is not a big company and they intend to keep it that way to maintain the spirit and quality that makes these superb instruments such a joy to own and play.

They only run the flake finishes a couple of times a year simply because the paint shop spray booths get so contaminated with flake it takes at least a full day to clean it up absolutely thoroughly otherwise those nice gloss white finishes would have the occasional flake shining out when the light catches it! So it's not a matter of the Flea bass being any more difficult to produce it's simply if you want a flake finish the demand this year has simply outstripped the available number in each flake production slot. I'm sure this is down in no mean way to all the activity and touring that the Chilis' have been involved in the last 18 months and Flea sounding absolutely awesome with his signature bass (did you catch the Chilis' on 'Live from Abbey Road'? Flea's bass sounded brill!).

The other thing to remember is that the USA is the largest single market for Modulus and dealers there may or may not have a bass that suits at any one particular time. The UK in turn is a very, very small market for these basses and we are constantly having to balance supply and demand which is difficult when the vast majority of people spending out for a high-end bass want something special (and quite rightly too!) and want to custom order their instrument. And...when we do get any stock instruments in they go very quickly and so back to square one!

The same lead-times apply to the US dealers (and if any say different to get an order just call Modulus!), no one gets preferential treatment. The only bass that Modulus had in stock recently was a Q6 when I asked just on the off-chance that something might have fallen through with an order for a Q5 for a customer busting for one. That Q6 was only available due to an artist deal falling through but there was nothing else in the cupboard.

So really Modulus are now more like a custom shop operation, only making to order.

We have several basses in the pipeline including a silver and blue flake with matching headstocks, one exactly the same burst finish as the bass Flea is currently using. So, first in the queue gets them when they arrive!

Martin Sims will create a unique instrument for you; I'll probably nip over to the workshop for a peak!!

Enough of the rant, we just love these basses and would like it if more of you out there gave us a call and we can bash out a deal!

Yours Modulusly

Ian Morton
S.M.A.R.T Distribution

www.smart-distribution.co.uk

[Beedster]

All agreed Ian. Modulus probably have the right idea all things considered, and perhaps that is why they are have the reputatin they do (there's not many people on this site have a bad word to say about Flea Basses). As I said, they were great to deal with: Chris in Customer Support especially couldn't have been more helpful. In fact, he seemed to be doing all he could to stop me spending money on this repair, and that meant suggesting and contacting a specific UK tech as opposed to a custom repair at Modulus. You don't get that sort of contact with EBMM or Fender. I couldn't believe my luck when I reaslised that the tech in question is based 20 miles from where I live!
I'm also sure Martin wil do a great job, I'll keep you posted with updates.
Cheers
Chris