A word of warning and request for advice

[Beedster]

Hi all
Four months ago I bought a Modulus Flea from a USA dealer. It played and sounded like a Flea should. However, my new gig is a Motown style setup and I needed some cash, I sold the Flea to a fellow BC'er, who subsequently sold it on also. To cut a long story short, the recent buyer had the bass checked out by a professional and, having taken off the neck, there was evidence of a significant repair to the pocket that, to be honest, I should have noticed when I bought it but didn't. I have arranged to refund the most recent buyer and seek compensation from the original USA dealer for the bass. He is a dealer in guitars who has over 5000 positive feedback and only a couple of negs.
The dealer's response was pretty much "f**k off" and "tough sh*t". I was a little surprised as, before buying the bass, I had engaged in a fairly lengthy dialogue with what seemed like a very friendly and knowledgeable musician, only to find a quite abusive and, I suspect, unethical businessman lurking below.
He has told me in writing that his listing stated a 10 day return policy, which it did not. He has also stated that ebay will not support me in a case against him, which is sadly probably true. He described the bass as being in "superb condition" and 9+/10. The listing states "[name withheld at this stage] represents and warrants that the merchandise is as described in the above listing. We will accept returns on the merchandise only if it fails to meet the description above. This warranty gives you specific legal rights and you may also have other legal rights that vary from state to state".
The bass is fully functional and the repair, although very poor aesthetically and possibly the work of an amateur, appears sound. However, the finish has been damaged and I imagine there is the possibility that the repair - the neck pocket has been cracked and filled with resin - might not hold in the long term without more work of a better quality. At the very least, even if the repair is good, the bass has little resale value to an honest seller. I am seeking from the USA dealer enough money to have the bass properly repaired and refinished, that is, put back to the condition the seller described it as being in. I imagine we're talking somewhere between £250 and £350, perhaps more.
Signs of the underlying damage are - somewhat sadly in terms of my expertise as a purveyor of basses - visible in the photos in the original listing. The dealer described this as a "small blemish in the finish". This I think is a problem for him but something that might help me immensely in pursuing a case against him. I'm not going to lose sleep over this, even with the problems the Flea is a great bass and I hope the repair will last as is. However, it would rather it were in the condition it should have been in when I bought it. Any help, experience or suggestions on how to proceed gratefully received
Chris

Edited July 25, 2007 by Beedster

[wazz]

I wonder if the MU would be able to advise, assuming you are a member?
It would be a long shot in any case.
Would the potential damages be worth any court action or should you just put it down to experience?

I think it would be best to persue it via Ebay and possibly the MU but drop it if it involves lawyers as winning on a principle would be costly.

Whatever the outcome, give the dealer some seriously bad feedback.

Wazz

[synaesthesia]

Caveat Emptor applies.

Too much time has passed for Paypal or Ebay to help, and however genuine the case, it is unlikely you will have legal recourse. Further, it would seem to me you have no duty of care to the most recent buyer seeing that you have actually sold the instrument on. All the buying and selling since your purchase pretty much puts you in a situation where you:

a. have no recourse to claim in your original purchase
b. really shouldn't have offered to compensate the most recent buyer.

The 3rd or 4th owner of a car really has no business with the 1st owner should a fault develop, same applies to a bass, musician's soup, genuine benevolence, camadarie and all that...

[Beedster]

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='36797' date='Jul 25 2007, 12:00 PM']Caveat Emptor applies.

Too much time has passed for Paypal or Ebay to help, and however genuine the case, it is unlikely you will have legal recourse. Further, it would seem to me you have no duty of care to the most recent buyer seeing that you have actually sold the instrument on. All the buying and selling since your purchase pretty much puts you in a situation where you:

a. have no recourse to claim in your original purchase
b. really shouldn't have offered to compensate the most recent buyer.

The 3rd or 4th owner of a car really has no business with the 1st owner should a fault develop, same applies to a bass, musician's soup, genuine benevolence, camadarie and all that...[/quote]

Thanks, I take the point. However, to not compensate a fellow BCer in this situation to me would have been to behave less ethically than the original dealer.
I'm aware that I really should have had the bass appraised myself sooner, we live and learn don't we. Does his statement in the listing cited above not have any legal impications?
Cheers
Chris

[guitarnbass]

Yeah, you did the right thing, you're obviously a decent guy. As for pursuing this guy, it just wouldn't be worth it for the amount of money you paid. You could try a solicitors letter, but I'd probably leave it there and accept your loss.

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='Beedster' post='36801' date='Jul 25 2007, 12:06 PM']Thanks, I take the point. However, to not compensate a fellow BCer in this situation to me would have been to behave less ethically than the original dealer.
I'm aware that I really should have had the bass appraised myself sooner, we live and learn don't we. Does his statement in the listing cited above not have any legal impications?
Cheers
Chris[/quote]

It would have little weight really. All they need to say is that they sold you a perfectly good bass and something happened after they sold it to you. It becomes a my word against yours situation that cannot be proved.

FWIW, caveat emptor applies to all buyers, including the ones whom you sold it to. A dealer has recourse to the manufacturer if the instrument is new, none if the instrument is not. You presumably have no recourse to forms of compensation other that your own pocket. Without sounding cynical, did your in between buyer (then seller) have anything to do with the damage, does he/she feel the same remorse?

In a legal sale, the last buyer really should accept his /her losses, and you may feel some ethical need to act but there is not reason why you should more than to express genuine explanation and empathy, unless you have deeps pockets or a genuine propensity towards philanthropy.

You know between musos there are different ways to compensate, a couple of CDs, some accessories, a paid dep gig or two thrown someone's way.....

[misrule]

I'm sorry to hear about your problem.

I'd say you had a case originally but it's too late now. A solicitor's letter won't help -- it will just act as confirmation to him that he's away free, otherwise you'd have used your stamp to send him the court papers. In any case, he's in the States and knows how expensive and drawn-out action against him would be.

If I were you, I'd just name the guy in your original post. That puts the ball in his court and acts as a warning to others. He's unlikely to sue you for defamation due to the huge cost, further bad publicity and your defence that what you posted was true.

I'm not a lawyer, by the way. I'm sure one of m'learned friends is lurking here somewhere.

Cheers

Mark

[guitarnbass]

[quote]In a legal sale, the last buyer really should accept his /her losses, and you may feel some ethical need to act but there is not reason why you should more than to express genuine explanation and empathy, unless you have deeps pockets or a genuine propensity towards philanthropy.[/quote]

I wonder what you'd be saying if you were the 3rd owner of the bass in question..

Really think people should remember this when buying instruments on eBay. Remember, that if there's a problem not as described, you will get refunded by paypal, infact, you could put your foot through the neck upon receipt and still claim your money back without any difficulty, but you only have 45 days to do so.

Edited July 25, 2007 by guitarnbass

[thedontcarebear]

Even if you had noticed right away I doubt ebay would have helped atall, I've had issues in the past and they've done sweet fa to help, which is the main reason why I no longer touch ebay or paypal.

[Machines]

Tough call. Personally i'd say it down to each buyer to review the instrument for faults as best they can before buying.. although not always possible on things like this.

If I were the 2nd owner i'd wouldn't be expecting anything from you.

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='guitarnbass' post='36837' date='Jul 25 2007, 12:50 PM']I wonder what you'd be saying if you were the 3rd owner of the bass in question..[/quote]

I'd claim against the person I bought it off, not previous owners. They don't owe me a duty of care and I know I cannot pursue it legally.

[Kiwi]

I was caught out like this with my Modulus Q5 fretless which had a neck like a banana but to some players who like high action it wouldn't have been a problem. I had to take the hit basically, then I paid Rob Green to skim the fingerboard which cost £75 + shipping and sold the bass on. Luckily I managed to break even on the deal.

I've bought two other Modulus basses and a Pedulla MVP5 from private sellers in the US and the transactions were fine. However I will never buy through ebay from a private seller outside the UK again. Its not worth the risk, you're screwed even if they offer a refund because they can ask for the bass to be returned and you'll have to cover the cost of shipping.

[guitarnbass]

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='36847' date='Jul 25 2007, 01:04 PM']I'd claim against the person I bought it off, not previous owners. They don't owe me a duty of care and I know I cannot pursue it legally.[/quote]

I see what you are saying, but when it's a tightly knit community like this, it's a different situation.

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='guitarnbass' post='36856' date='Jul 25 2007, 01:13 PM']I see what you are saying, but when it's a tightly knit community like this, it's a different situation.[/quote]

I beg to disagree. There would be no end to claim and I see no reason why I or anyone else should be my fellow bass chatter's keeper. I certainly don't expect it from anyone, and there are various other communities of shared pursuit, or for that matter the larger world out there where it would be silly for this to happen.

As I have suggested there are many other ways to express goodwill or 'compensation' if you feel the guilty need to.

[guitarnbass]

It takes a stand up guy I guess..

[slaphappygarry]

Thats aweful.

As kiwi says, sometimes you just gotta put it down to experience, take the hit and walk way hopefully making even...

Good luck

Garry

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='guitarnbass' post='36863' date='Jul 25 2007, 01:37 PM']It takes a stand up guy I guess..[/quote]

Yes I must be less than that that for pointing out the legal standing and my beliefs.

[artisan]

[quote name='guitarnbass' post='36863' date='Jul 25 2007, 01:37 PM']It takes a stand up guy I guess..[/quote]

+1 agreed

[Beedster]

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='36847' date='Jul 25 2007, 01:04 PM']I'd claim against the person I bought it off, not previous owners. They don't owe me a duty of care and I know I cannot pursue it legally.[/quote]

Hi synaesthesia
Thanks for your advice above. As I think you've implied, sometimes the harsh facts, unpleasant as they may be, are worth pointing out.

Just to make clear, I have dealt with the first buyer on a number of occasions and, the way I see it, had I not taken responsibility for this I would have dropped him in it badly. I would also guess that logically had this happened, he would then have sought reparation from me anyway. Also, with one exception, every deal I've done through Bassworld or Basschat has been a very pleasant and affirming experience, that is, I have not been ripped off, overcharged, p*ssed about or similar by anyone, and have met some bloody good guys (when I say affirming I mean that BW/BC people have acted the way I'd hope they would act). There are a couple of bad'uns on here but they tend to stand out from the crowd in the same way one of those modified Precisions that German guy on ebay keeps trying to sell stand out from the real thing, so I keep clear of them.

The general consensus above seems to be that I have little chance of compensation and as such I've learned a bloody good lesson, namely that I will never buy a bass again without playing it first, and I will probably even then have any such bass checked by a professional within days of the deal. The Flea bass in question is, despite the problems, still bloody awesome, so I'm not making any sort of grand charitable gesture here. I would certainly rather not spend the money on a bass that I wasn't really using but things could be a lot worse, if I spend a further few hundred I'm still gonna have a great bass, and you never know, I might get a Chilis covers gig

Thanks for the suggestions above. I'm resigned to not getting any money back from the dealer, but if anyone has any good ideas re. expressing my feelings towards the guy, let me know
Chris

[bass_ferret]

This sums up the problems with buying unseen from ebay - but OTOH you might pick up a 1960 Jazz for f*** all! Its always gonna be a gamble and really knowing what you are doing just minimises the odds.

[Muppet]

I'm sure someone had a very similar situation with a US ebay dealer recently (over a refinish of a vintage Jazz I believe) - remember there were a couple of protest ebay auctions as a result. I wonder if it could the same dealer?

FWIW I think the stance Chris has taken is excellent and truly representative of the BW community. He's not legally obliged to act in this way which makes it all the more laudable.

[Sean]

M****F*****! Really feel for you on that one, Chris, it leaves a really hollow feeling, I know.

[GreeneKing]

As several have said, sometimes we have to accept that we've lost out and move on. If it were me I'd probably get a good quality repair done and keep the beast.

You are obviously beyond reproach and that's a credit to you as so many aren't nowadays.

[Mr Cougar]

I guess on the other hand if you buy from someone with plenty of good feedback it could be that they didn't notice either. I mean, if you had sold something you genuinely believed to have nothing more than a minor cosmetic fault on it and then some guy across the pond said after having had it for months and sold it through 2 other people that it had a significant structural fault you'd think; "this limey b*gger is trying to take me for a ride, he's broken it and thinks I'm some kind of colonial mug, we didn't fight the war of independence for this. I'm so anoyed about this varmint, I'm gonna have to chew some to'baccy, beat ma' wife and go fire my assult rifle in the garden, sorry yard"

Just being devils advocate though, you only have to look at Beedsters picci to know he's a stand up guy, mind you my mother always told me never to trust men with beards (to quote Baldrick)

[Guest Bald Eagle]

If you're sure he's pulled a trick on you I'd name & shame the seller here 'Without prejudice' then on every other bass forum on the planet. Gauging by his defensive response I'd say he knew it was dodgy in the first place probably why it was bumped on the bay in the first place, what an A.Hole.

Just sleep tight on knowing what goes around comes around.