Is agathis really that bad?

[markdavid]

Heard people say that Agathis is a lousy tonewood, my question is , a lot of lower end basses are made of agathis , is it really that bad a tonewood? would a bass with good pickups sound bad because of an agathis body?

[Lulu]

I own an agathis Squier VM (fretless) and it sounds the way I like.

[acidbass]

I'm not sure it would be as resonant or robust as a body made from say Alder or Ash, but if it sounds good to your ears - then it's a good tonewood!

[Kiwi]

I posted about this on Bassworld but that info doesn't seem available any longer on Google.

Agathis is the pseudo-latin name for Fijian kauri ([i]Agathis macro-phylla[/i]) which is often grown in large commercial plantations not only in Fiji but also around the Pacific in developing nations (such as Indonesia). Technically its a conifer although nothing like a pine or redwood. Its better known (and rarer) cousin is the NZ Kauri [i](Agathis australis) [/i]which grows about 40-60m tall in the north of the North Island.

Fijian kauri is cheap to buy and easy to work but it lacks as solid a fundamental compared to denser tonewoods. Ultimately whether its bad or not is a question of taste but you may find the sound less satisfying than other woods depending on the kind of music you play and what your expectations are.

[EdwardHimself]

i think it's dissed for 2 reasons:

1. it's a cheap wood so it's going to be used on cheap guitars. People might actually blame the wood for it sounding crap when it could actually be the pickups or their hearing (if they've not been playing for long/not played enough nice guitars)

2. i think the wood has certain tonal characteristics that aren't very nice on guitars so every1 who has a guitar made out of agathis will say that it sounds sh*t. However some frequencies that aren't very nice on the guitar can be actually quite good for the bass so i think that you shouldn't be discouraged from buying a bass with that wood.

[Sharkfinger]

Well, I have a korean Spector with basswood body (bubinga top) and it sounds amazing to my ears. I've heard that basswood can lack mid, so maybe it's the active EMG pups and BQC preamp that are compensating. It's in the "For Sale" section, BTW (shameless plug!).

Another reason they get put down maybe because they don't have a particularly "attractive" grain?

[Kiwi]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' post='51550' date='Aug 28 2007, 08:30 AM']1. it's a cheap wood so it's going to be used on cheap guitars. People might actually blame the wood for it sounding crap when it could actually be the pickups or their hearing (if they've not been playing for long/not played enough nice guitars)[/quote]

In my experience the wood is the predominant foundation for the tonal character of an instrument. Other elements tend to enhance or detract from that character depending on how they contribute to structural rigidity of the instrument or match in terms of frequency response (aka tonal character).

No.1 consideration in my view is a very rigid and dense neck, preferably mated to a softer body wood. However if you use a greater proportion of softer woods that are matched to one another in terms of their frequency responses (like old Fenders) the result can be equally pleasing and even more distinctive.

[The Burpster]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='51578' date='Aug 28 2007, 09:41 AM']No.1 consideration in my view is a very rigid and dense neck, preferably mated to a softer body wood.[/quote]

Thats me that is.....! Does that mean I'm made of quality wood?

[Kiwi]

[quote name='The Burpster' post='51599' date='Aug 28 2007, 10:36 AM']Thats me that is.....! Does that mean I'm made of quality wood?

[/quote]
Your rigid neck or your soft body?

[Wil]

One thing to consider of course is that nature has no concept of value or quality. Wood grows, we cut it down and use it, but whether the sound a certain type of wood gives is worth its cost is an entirely subjective matter. Its not like a cheap wood is cheap because the tree cut corners while it was growing! It may just be because the wood is plentiful.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Wil' post='51689' date='Aug 28 2007, 12:22 PM']One thing to consider of course is that nature has no concept of value or quality.[/quote]
apart from natural selection.

[Wil]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='51704' date='Aug 28 2007, 12:43 PM']apart from natural selection. [/quote]

True!

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Sharkfinger' post='51576' date='Aug 28 2007, 09:39 AM']Well, I have a korean Spector with basswood body (bubinga top) and it sounds amazing to my ears. I've heard that basswood can lack mid, so maybe it's the active EMG pups and BQC preamp that are compensating.[/quote]

Basswood (a type of lime, [i]Tilia spp.) [/i]to my ears has a fairly prominent midrange but lacks the upper range snap of maple or low end definition of ash. Its not a particularly dense wood.

I tried Luke's Ibanez Gary Willis at the SE Bass Bash and it had a basswood body. Its not a bad bass at all, basswood was probably a good choice for a fretless although, as a matter of taste, I did find myself wishing it had more power in the lower frequencies. Basswood is also great for guitars (which picks up on Edwards earlier comments) because it sits in the sweetspot of frequencies that some guitarists seem to like.

[Dread Bass]

I started on a bass with an agathis body and it served me well. The tone was alright as a beginner but as i got better i wanted a more defined tone.

I think your sound is only as good as your weakest link wether that is you or equipment.

[krazy_olie]

My Ibanez is made of Agathis, I only realised how dead it sounded after I bought my G&L. It can sound "boxy".

[andy67]

you can have the best bass in the world and make it sound sh*te!! you can also own the lousiest bass in the world and make it sing...playing is in the person more so in the hands and hour technique..tone comes form our fingers and amplified through our instruments....My stunningly brilliant ex bass tutor had a zon bass but preferred gigging with his 70's satellite p bass...and good grief did he make it sing...(we all know the satellite bass I'm talking about?)

Edited August 29, 2007 by andy67

[Sharkfinger]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='51726' date='Aug 28 2007, 01:23 PM']Basswood (a type of lime, [i]Tilia spp.) [/i]to my ears has a fairly prominent midrange but lacks the upper range snap of maple or low end definition of ash. Its not a particularly dense wood.

I tried Luke's Ibanez Gary Willis at the SE Bass Bash and it had a basswood body. Its not a bad bass at all, basswood was probably a good choice for a fretless although, as a matter of taste, I did find myself wishing it had more power in the lower frequencies. Basswood is also great for guitars (which picks up on Edwards earlier comments) because it sits in the sweetspot of frequencies that some guitarists seem to like.[/quote]

This is probably over-simplified and my own opinion but I think Spectors are known to be "voiced" at that mid-range point? It certainly got the "growl" thing down to a tee.

Personally, I think Wil hit the nail on the head.

[Tait]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='51465' date='Aug 27 2007, 09:58 PM']I posted about this on Bassworld but that info doesn't seem available any longer on Google.

Agathis is the pseudo-latin name for Fijian kauri ([i]Agathis macro-phylla[/i]) which is often grown in large commercial plantations not only in Fiji but also around the Pacific in developing nations (such as Indonesia). Technically its a conifer although nothing like a pine or redwood. Its better known (and rarer) cousin is the NZ Kauri [i](Agathis australis) [/i]which grows about 40-60m tall in the north of the North Island.

Fijian kauri is cheap to buy and easy to work but it lacks as solid a fundamental compared to denser tonewoods. Ultimately whether its bad or not is a question of taste but you may find the sound less satisfying than other woods depending on the kind of music you play and what your expectations are.[/quote]


[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='51578' date='Aug 28 2007, 09:41 AM']In my experience the wood is the predominant foundation for the tonal character of an instrument. Other elements tend to enhance or detract from that character depending on how they contribute to structural rigidity of the instrument or match in terms of frequency response (aka tonal character).

No.1 consideration in my view is a very rigid and dense neck, preferably mated to a softer body wood. However if you use a greater proportion of softer woods that are matched to one another in terms of their frequency responses (like old Fenders) the result can be equally pleasing and even more distinctive.[/quote]


[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='51726' date='Aug 28 2007, 01:23 PM']Basswood (a type of lime, [i]Tilia spp.) [/i]to my ears has a fairly prominent midrange but lacks the upper range snap of maple or low end definition of ash. Its not a particularly dense wood.

I tried Luke's Ibanez Gary Willis at the SE Bass Bash and it had a basswood body. Its not a bad bass at all, basswood was probably a good choice for a fretless although, as a matter of taste, I did find myself wishing it had more power in the lower frequencies. Basswood is also great for guitars (which picks up on Edwards earlier comments) because it sits in the sweetspot of frequencies that some guitarists seem to like.[/quote]

You spend too much time with your wood

Edited August 30, 2007 by lwtait

[EdwardHimself]

^ oh you're just jeallous!

[Matte_black]

Good points. But you all should keep in mind that there aren't two wood pieces with the same "character". This is why instruments always tend to sound differently, even if you A/B two examples of the same model. The neck is the most important factor. Body wood affects tone far less than that.
But I can't justify factories using such a cheap stuff. I mean: there's for sure some resonant piece of Agathis out there... but decent wood isn't that expensive, I know it for sure. So they could use Alder or Mahogany without mortgaging their asses

[EdwardHimself]

^they're a business, when they were making the ford model T they wanted to make a car with the least amount of bolts possible. Even 1 bolt on each car being taken out was great. Why? because the bolt itself might cost 10 cents but if they make 100,000 cars that means that they would save $10,000 just on one bolt if you see what i mean. If you spend £5 extra on a decent bit of wood and you make 1000 guitars in a day then that's a loss of £5000 a day! and most ppl who buy cheap guitars have no idea what "tone" even is so why should they loose that much money if they know it's not gonna make much difference to sales? However some companies have decided that it's a good business strategy to get better bits of wood on cheap guitars like yamaha, the idea being that more ppl will buy a high quality cheap guitar so they make more money. It all depends on what will make the most money.

[markdavid]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' post='53330' date='Aug 31 2007, 01:17 PM']^they're a business, when they were making the ford model T they wanted to make a car with the least amount of bolts possible. Even 1 bolt on each car being taken out was great. Why? because the bolt itself might cost 10 cents but if they make 100,000 cars that means that they would save $10,000 just on one bolt if you see what i mean. If you spend £5 extra on a decent bit of wood and you make 1000 guitars in a day then that's a loss of £5000 a day! and most ppl who buy cheap guitars have no idea what "tone" even is so why should they loose that much money if they know it's not gonna make much difference to sales? However some companies have decided that it's a good business strategy to get better bits of wood on cheap guitars like yamaha, the idea being that more ppl will buy a high quality cheap guitar so they make more money. It all depends on what will make the most money.[/quote]

That makes sense , however what baffles me is that my Squier P Bass Special has an Agathis body , however the cheaper Squier Affinity models have Alder bodies , yet they are meant to be a cheaper poorer quality version of the standard Squiers which have Agathis bodies. This means in theory that if you were to buy a Squier with the intention of upgrading the pickups you would get a better result from upgrading the cheaper Affinity model , Confusing or what?

[Telebass]

In a great many ways, though this is far from 100%, if properly used, the actual wood makes less difference than might be supposed. Although not directly related to solid basses, think of Bob Taylor, he of acoustics fame, who decided it was his skill, more than the wood, that made a good guitar. So he made a top-flight acoustic out an old oak pallet from his factory dumpster. The whole guitar is made from this! And it sounded awesome.
Like most of these things, it matters less than you'd think. Further confirmation comes from the likes of Bob Benedetto, doyen of archtop builders, who has stated that close-grained spruce is almost always given the nod for tops, when, in actual fact, the closeness of the grain is of no practical importance. And if he don't know, who does?

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Telebass' post='54392' date='Sep 2 2007, 08:14 PM']In a great many ways, though this is far from 100%, if properly used, the actual wood makes less difference than might be supposed. Although not directly related to solid basses, think of Bob Taylor, he of acoustics fame, who decided it was his skill, more than the wood, that made a good guitar. So he made a top-flight acoustic out an old oak pallet from his factory dumpster. The whole guitar is made from this! And it sounded awesome.
Like most of these things, it matters less than you'd think. Further confirmation comes from the likes of Bob Benedetto, doyen of archtop builders, who has stated that close-grained spruce is almost always given the nod for tops, when, in actual fact, the closeness of the grain is of no practical importance. And if he don't know, who does?[/quote]
Rob Green says more or less the same thing in that there are some pieces of ash that will sound like some pieces of mahogany. But I think its important to recognise there's limits to the idea. Noone's gonna make a piece of balsa sound like a piece of ebony no matter how skilled they are.

[olegst90]

Wood does matter because the neck-body structure isn't ideally rigid, it has it's resonant frequencies, passes some vibrations and blocks other. It affects the sound as much as trampoline properties affect the way you jump on it, if you pardon this figurative comparison. Whether wood species is a decisive factor is a matter of some debate, as I have never seen an exhaustive and convincing experiment that would prove once and for all that wood matters or not, nor determine some general "tonal properties". Moreover, you can take the same piece and get different properties depending on the way you cut it. 

Wood is chosen based on a lot of considerations: price, stability, looks, easiness of processing, and of course customer's perception. Fenders are made of alder ==> alder is cool, cheap Corts of agathis ==> agathis is bad. 

First-hand experience:  Squier Affinity with alder body sounds worse than Vintage Modified series with agathis body. Why? The answer is pickups and build quality. The accuracy with which neck pocket and heel were worked and put together. Solid cast bridge vs crappy pressed one (even though this is questionable, too).