ACME v BFM

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='76223' date='Oct 18 2007, 10:08 PM']Certainly that's possible, you should open yours up and see. But even if that's the case there's only so much leeway with what's possible from a box of a certain size, irrespective of what's inside. Hoffman's Iron Law applies to everyone.[/quote]

Yes it does, including to the Omni 10 which sacrifices internal volume to fit the short horn therefore making it less capable of deep bass than a simple ported box of equal external dimensions. Unlike the usual marketing specsmanship the Acme specs do not play comical games with the laws of physics - the cabs are small, the bass response goes low but the sensitivity is also low. Hoffman's is not denied.

However, the box is optimised to do what it does best. I don't believe any other bass cab on the market or any DIY design can achieve the same deep bass response and accurate mids and highs from such a small enclosure. Yes it does take more power to reach a given SPL but I have seen time and time again that these cabs can handle the power and will thus go louder in the real world than the sensitivity plus thermal power handling would suggest.

That Omni 10 with BP102s is 3dB down by about 58Hz. No worse than many 2x10" cabs but nothing like what the Acmes achieve. It's also -6dB by about 50Hz - even further removed from the Acme response.

As I said before, apples and oranges, or more like horses for courses. You know perfectly well yourself that a speaker cabinet has to be optimised for whatever speakers are used it, so why you're claiming that you can throw some BP102s into an Omni 10 - which works far better with 2510s - and suddenly have a magic cab that beats an Acme hands down is baffling.

Alex

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='76306' date='Oct 19 2007, 02:41 AM']why you're claiming that you can throw some BP102s into an Omni 10 - which works far better with 2510s - and suddenly have a magic cab that beats an Acme hands down is baffling.[/quote]
That's not exactly what I said, and to remove any doubt I posted a measured response chart of a BP102 loaded O10, which does have lower extension than a 2510 loaded O10. Comparisons to Acme remain academic and speculative until and unless measured charts of Acme are made available.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='76583' date='Oct 19 2007, 04:05 PM']Comparisons to Acme remain academic and speculative until and unless measured charts of Acme are made available.[/quote]
Unless you get one of each, stick 'em next to each other and do an A/B comparison with the same amp and bass?

I think its all too easy to get caught up in the technical aspects and lose sight of the fact that at the end of the day, something maybe technically inferior but it still sounds good to a lot of people. I think others have attempted to make this point in the past. If this wasn't the case then p-basses would have been ditched the world over in favour of Alembics in the mid 70's. Technically an Alembic Series 1 or 2 is superior to a Fender Precision in terms of how its been engineered for efficiency and broad frequency response but not everyone's cup of tea tonally.

I think the point Alex was making is that its all a question of taste, at the end of the day.

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='76721' date='Oct 19 2007, 08:27 PM']I think the point Alex was making is that its all a question of taste, at the end of the day.[/quote]


I think he is defending his ownership and choice of said cabs more than anything. I respect than an Acme sounds smoother than most 2 way designs, but then hey, my own design 3 way cabs with a 1X12, 1X6 and a peerless horn tweeter that i have beeen gigging with since the mid 90s sounds smoother than most 2 way bass cabs too. But he claims they are 'flat' to his sharp ears, without measurement. I think that you'll find most 3 way cabs would sound flatter than your average 2 way cab with a tweeter and high distortion. Do the Acmes go deeper than any other design? Without comparative measurements it is a moot point.

What is probably not reflected in this argument of mine goes deeper than yours is that that tonal characteristics of electric bass guitar actually does not need to, nor for the most part want to go that deep and in most cases does not produce a flat response down to 40hz.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='76728' date='Oct 19 2007, 09:03 PM']What is probably not reflected in this argument of mine goes deeper than yours is that that tonal characteristics of electric bass guitar actually does not need to, nor for the most part want to go that deep and in most cases does not produce a flat response down to 40hz.[/quote]
Are you talking a 4 or 5 string electric bass? What stage acoustics are you assuming? What sounds smooth in one gigging environment may not sound smooth in another.

You may have a point for a 4 string bass being recorded through a mixing desk. But in my experience playing a 5 string bass live with frequencies shelved below 40Hz results in a very inadequate sound. Sometimes its necessary to boost that low just so that the onstage mix sounds fuller.

At the end of the day a flat response cab will give me more control in my set up, in that when I'm eq-ing for on stage monitoring I can be reasonably confident that what anomalies I hear are more likely due to the environment than colouring in my gear. However I've generally found flat response cabs are inadequate above certain stage volumes. With increased voumes, the stage acoustics and other instruments can overwhelm any benefits from the improvement in monitoring quality.

Given a rock gig using my Alembic, a 400w valve amp and a choice between my Acme B2's or a wheezy old 8x10, the Acmes would most likely be inadequate as a flat response cab. I can't comment on the BFM cabs in not having heard one yet.

If I was gigging in an environment where there were a lot of reflective surfaces and I needed to use a semi para eq to be more precise in what I cut/boost then the Acmes (and perhaps the BFM Omni's) as flat response cabs would do the job better than a 8x10.

The points I'm making here are:
1) It's all very well getting excited comparing and contrasting the technical aspects of these speakers but at the end of the day, its easy to forget the other influences that affect what you hear on stage. That is to say, just because the cabs are flat response doesn't necessarily mean your whole rig will sound better when used against guitars and drums on a hollow stage in a nightclub with concrete walls and hard seating.

2) In my experience, flat response cabs are a great idea but have limitations just like any other piece of kit. However its possible to compensate for most inadequacies in the spec of the other pieces of gear being used. That is to say, if someone likes their flat response cabs because they're light and portable (whatever design they happen to be) then it makes sense to choose other kit that gives more colouring when needed.

Of course the way to completely bypass all of this discussion is to invest in in-ear monitoring. Then stage acoustics get left out of the equation completely and it makes the process of eqing to personal taste a load easier.

[synaesthesia]

Been three done it bought the t shirt mate. For loud gigs I play though an electronically crossovered sub powered by an 800 watt power amp, and usually I run a -12dB filter at about 50hz generally without losing any satisfactory trouser flapping bottom, either in playing an Alembic, a Rick, a 7 string Conklin etc. In 12 years of commercial recording and mixing, I've filtered electric basses of at 60hz depending on tracks. In a mix particularly for pop or rock records, this is quite a common so that you have a tighter low end, and a punchier recording, particularly if the track will be compressed a little at mastering. Your generic 4X10 bass cab doesn't really go very low in the nether regions and many people claim 'deep' bottom end nirvana with one - your average punter playing through a cheapo wireless which starts to filter off at 70 to 90hz (your freeports, some samsons, som AKG) claim they hear all the way to 35hz of their B string. My point is searching for flatter response towards 40hz whilst perhaps necessary for PA and DJs reproducing synthesised frequencies isn't all that necessary for satisfactory electric bass guitar reproduction. The heritage of established and acceptable tonal character of bass guitar given its definition via its historcal development with generally poor audio reproduction equipment added to the fact that many players post Jaco choose to emphasize their bridge pickup sonic character supports my claim.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='76834' date='Oct 20 2007, 01:38 AM']Been three done it bought the t shirt mate. For loud gigs I play though an electronically crossovered sub powered by an 800 watt power amp, and usually I run a -12dB filter at about 50hz generally without losing any satisfactory trouser flapping bottom, either in playing an Alembic, a Rick, a 7 string Conklin etc.[/quote]
Regardless of which, my experience is that flat cabs don't work in all live situations. But they may work in some.

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='76834' date='Oct 20 2007, 01:38 AM']In 12 years of commercial recording and mixing, I've filtered electric basses of at 60hz depending on tracks. In a mix particularly for pop or rock records, this is quite a common so that you have a tighter low end, and a punchier recording, particularly if the track will be compressed a little at mastering. Your generic 4X10 bass cab doesn't really go very low in the nether regions and many people claim 'deep' bottom end nirvana with one - your average punter playing through a cheapo wireless which starts to filter off at 70 to 90hz (your freeports, some samsons, som AKG) claim they hear all the way to 35hz of their B string.[/quote]
All based on a recording context mate, which just supports the point I conceded to you earlier. I agree with you, as far as a recording situation goes. However you've not addressed the onstage situation and issue of [b]context[/b] that many players on this forum are likely to encounter. Does the average punter use a wireless? I couldn't tell you what the average punter uses in their signal chain.

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='76834' date='Oct 20 2007, 01:38 AM']My point is searching for flatter response towards 40hz whilst perhaps necessary for PA and DJs reproducing synthesised frequencies isn't all that necessary for satisfactory electric bass guitar reproduction.[/quote]
"Satisfactory" being a question of taste?

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='76834' date='Oct 20 2007, 01:38 AM']The heritage of established and acceptable tonal character of bass guitar given its definition via its historcal development with generally poor audio reproduction equipment added to the fact that many players post Jaco choose to emphasize their bridge pickup sonic character supports my claim.[/quote]
Eh?

[alexclaber]

I'll reply to those other posts later, but here's some more thoughts from Andy Lewis:

[url="http://www.acmebass.com/"]http://www.acmebass.com/[/url]

"1. Can you buy the special Acme woofer off-the-shelf?

We use a custom made Eminence woofer in our Low-B systems. We don't sell the woofers separately, and we demand the return of the blown ones when we ship replacements.

Some people have assumed that this is the woofer known as the Eminence Legend model# BP102, which looks a lot like the custom woofer we use.

When Eminence sent me their CD catalog last year, I was alarmed to see such a similar looking woofer being made available to the public. Not only was I assured by Eminence that this was not the case, but I have since had an opportunity to hold the BP102 in my hand, and examine it, at the NAMM show in Austin last summer.

I can assure you the BP102 has a different cone, a different magnet structure, and probably a different voice coil. I didn't take it apart. I have no doubt that the BP102 is a good woofer, but it's different.

Despite some outward physical similarities, the Acme woofer and the Eminence BP102 are very different woofers. Anyone saying otherwise is either ignorant or dishonest, or both.

Any response curve based on a BP102 will not be at all indicative of the performance of a genuine Acme Low-B unit.

Don't believe everything you see on the internet. If you want an Acme Low-B system, there's only one place to get it. And unfortunately, you can't buy the woofers to make it yourself."

Alex

[alexclaber]

And some more from Andy:

"Talkbass, basstalk- it doesn't matter. Also, it doesn't matter how many
potential customers see any of it. The truth has a way of surviving, and the
cream still rises to the top.

A "variant" of the BP102? What the hell is that supposed to mean? I saw a
"variant" of an honest webpage yesterday. I had an email exchange with a
"variant" of an honest man.

Just to clarify- I have never had anything against Bill Fitzmaurice. He
designs the type of stuff I was doing in high school. I liked it then, and I
like it now. I like the K-horns, the La Scalas,the A7's, Patricians, the JBL
Paragon, the Community Leviathan, and all that stuff. I like the AR3, the
Altec 311-90, the 515-B. In short I have a love of loudspeakers, old and
new. I like the stuff that's antique, and the stuff that's cutting edge. I
love the Heil AMT, the KLH 9, Yamaha NS1000, and everything Tannoy ever
made, going back over 50 years. I like ferrite, alnico, and neo.

That is the sense in which I am speaking when I say "I love that stuff Bill
makes." I really do. I think it's extremely cool. Obsolete, silly, over the
top, to be sure, but extremely cool. I have never had a desire to describe
it that way, and I don't particularly now, but since he has chosen to
misrepresent my stuff in an effort to promote his own, I think it's
appropriate to, for a moment, abandon my "live and let live-there's enough
room for everybody" stance.

Build some of that stuff. I certainly have. Have fun with it. I did.
Speakers can be a great hobby. But I guarantee you. After you've had your
fun, and it's time to reproduce sound in the real world, you will always
come back to the tried and true, and the designs which can be justified in
terms of physics, which those silly folded horns cannot. If they could, they
wouldn't be in the realm of the hobbiest only. They would be ubiquitous in
the hands of people who depend on their sound equipment to make a living, as
well. But these folded "bass" horns are conspicuous only in their absense.

And FYI, I designed the original B-2 using an Apple IIGS, Appleworks
software, and a handheld 10-band real time analyzer in 1992 and 1993. I
didn't have the capability of printing out a curve of any type then, and I
don't give a damn now. I have rave reviews, thousands of happy customers in
every corner of the globe who have other stuff to worry about, and I have
neither the time nor the desire to justify my efforts to every pinhead with
a website and an audio generator who chooses to tell lies about my work for
reasons of his own. I'm sort of doing other stuff.

That circuit board pattern that I sent you, and the component lists
associated with it, for example, represent a design period equivalent to
that which would be required to design about 6-7 folded horns. It exists in
a world so far over the head of BF as to be all but unimaginable to him."

Alex

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='76842' date='Oct 20 2007, 04:58 AM']Regardless of which, my experience is that flat cabs don't work in all live situations. But they may work in some.
All based on a recording context mate, which just supports the point I conceded to you earlier. I agree with you, as far as a recording situation goes. However you've not addressed the onstage situation and issue of [b]context[/b] that many players on this forum are likely to encounter. Does the average punter use a wireless? I couldn't tell you what the average punter uses in their signal chain.
"Satisfactory" being a question of taste?
Eh? [/quote]

The tonal character of electric bass guitar as we know it is largely in the 60 hz - 6Khz region. It starts to drop off below that and above that, even your Alembic onboard bass preamps are designed to shelve off above 6 or 7 Khz. Most electric bass guitar cabs are direct radiator designs and are often reflex designs, most drop off at 60 hz, and many popular cabs drop off well above that. The bass guitar signal's harmonic overtones which make up its character is often higher up in the register, particularly if you choose to blend more bridge pickup tone. Consequently you are not sending a flat frequency signal to be reproduced, it is more often a spiked frequency signal, particularly if you want to hear note definition on stage.

Try this: Go get a variable low pass filter shelving off anything above 45hz, 50 hz or 60hz and feed your cabs nothing more than your electric basses. I vary my stage hi pass filter for different venues, stages. See how much you can hear/feel and how much of that interferes with what else needs to be picked up/ mic'ed/heard on stage. Then try the reverse and feed your amps with a high pass signal shelved at 45 hz -60hz. You'll get a much tighter bass sound, less stage low end mud, less interefence with other instruments, less sympatathetic resonance that you do not need to create in the first place, and you'll still know its a bass guitar that goes very very low, gives lots of slam, flaps your pants and can be heard.

I have chased the nether region mate for my bass rig and found it using a good sub in a 4 way system, and you know what? When you have it you may find that you did not really need it after all. I am not talking about taste, but the seeming 'need' for reproducing 35 - 40 hz for bass guitar, and the belief that is vital for bass guitar, or worse that it does not interfere with stage audio management. I think most of live low end gratification for bass guitar slam or bass drum thump is really in the 60 - 100hz region.

[MB1]

[quote name='The Funk' date='Oct 11 2007, 11:36 AM' post='72711']
I'm looking to invest in some new cabs and I'm trying to decide between a pair of ACME B2s and a BFM Omni15 Tallboy for my main gig rig. (For small gigs I'm looking to get a BFM Omni10.5 Crossfire.)

The criteria so far seem to be transportability, price, perceived loudness and evenness of response (including how low the low frequencies go).

Any advice on this one?

MB1.

I do know Coyotes had some issues with this Acme Gear!.................BEEP! BEEP!.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='76922' date='Oct 20 2007, 06:30 AM']And some more from Andy:
I designed the original B-2 using an Apple IIGS, Appleworks
software, and a handheld 10-band real time analyzer in 1992 and 1993."

Alex[/quote]
The one thing I'll credit Andy for is he's not lacking in the hubris department. I for one would not be bragging on the fact that I hadn't made any advances in my designs since 1993, or that the only measurements ever made of them had only one octave resolution. But at least we now know why Acme doesn't post SPL charts. As for the rest, it's not worth dignifying with a response, nor is it appropriate for this arena, and I apologize to Basschat for getting caught in the middle.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='76721' date='Oct 19 2007, 08:27 PM']I think the point Alex was making is that its all a question of taste, at the end of the day.[/quote]

Actually I was making the point that it's not so much taste as how you decide to balance your compromises - do you want bass extension, sensitivity or compactness. Gain on one, you lose on the other two, or vice versa.

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='76728' date='Oct 19 2007, 09:03 PM']I think he is defending his ownership and choice of said cabs more than anything. I respect than an Acme sounds smoother than most 2 way designs, but then hey, my own design 3 way cabs with a 1X12, 1X6 and a peerless horn tweeter that i have beeen gigging with since the mid 90s sounds smoother than most 2 way bass cabs too. But he claims they are 'flat' to his sharp ears, without measurement. I think that you'll find most 3 way cabs would sound flatter than your average 2 way cab with a tweeter and high distortion.[/quote]

I don't base my judgements solely on how bass sounds through them - in fact I don't believe playing an instrument through a speaker is very enlightening as its too easy for you to intuitively change your technique to adjust for any deficiencies. I have played quite a lot of recorded music through the Acmes and they have proved outstandingly transparent, better than most hi-fi speakers and many studio monitors. You hear all sorts of things which would normally be hidden. The midrange driver and its associated crossover circuitry gives amazingly detailed response and the bass response is deep and tight.

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='76728' date='Oct 19 2007, 09:03 PM']Do the Acmes go deeper than any other design? Without comparative measurements it is a moot point.[/quote]

That's something I hope to rectify in the future, once I have both suitable equipment and a space to take accurate measurements.

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='76728' date='Oct 19 2007, 09:03 PM']What is probably not reflected in this argument of mine goes deeper than yours is that that tonal characteristics of electric bass guitar actually does not need to, nor for the most part want to go that deep and in most cases does not produce a flat response down to 40hz.[/quote]

Apart from the 'mine goes deeper than yours' thing, it's also the 'mine has more output that yours where it counts'. Just as you say a lot of electric bass sound is in the 60-100Hz region so the Acmes produce more output in that region than most bass cabs when given enough power. The Omni 15 certainly performs very well in that area but the Omni 10 does not do anywhere near as well. In my experience having deeper bass extension is rarely a bad thing as it allows you to have a fuller bigger bass sound without obscuring the kick drum (which tends to sit a little higher around the 80Hz mark) and is unlikely to cause boom as that usually lives higher up (~150Hz). The killer is trying to get too much low bass from speakers that cannot handle it, causing hugely increased distortion and therefore creating extra unwanted output in that nasty boomy region higher up.

Alex

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='77004' date='Oct 20 2007, 03:47 PM']The one thing I'll credit Andy for is he's not lacking in the hubris department. I for one would not be bragging on the fact that I hadn't made any advances in my designs since 1993, or that the only measurements ever made of them had only one octave resolution.[/quote]

The designs have evolved subtly over the years but the woofer has remained unchanged. But so has Hoffmann's law so I wonder why you're suggesting the woofer should have changed?

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='77004' date='Oct 20 2007, 03:47 PM']As for the rest, it's not worth dignifying with a response, nor is it appropriate for this arena, and I apologize to Basschat for getting caught in the middle.[/quote]

Would you be being caught in the middle if you hadn't posted such speculative plots without any solid evidence? Hubris indeed...

Alex

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='77119' date='Oct 20 2007, 02:42 PM']The designs have evolved subtly over the years but the woofer has remained unchanged. But so has Hoffmann's law so I wonder why you're suggesting the woofer should have changed?
Would you be being caught in the middle if you hadn't posted such speculative plots without any solid evidence? Hubris indeed...

Alex[/quote]
Alex, I expected better of you. In the course of this thread you've gone from [i]"Those plots tell quite an interesting story which is certainly not that far from reality. The plot in the Acme manual shows the Low-B4 at 96dB @ 100Hz dropping to 93dB @ 41Hz and 90dB @ 31Hz, so slightly greater bass extension than your plot. "[/i] to the above comment. You as much as anyone are perfectly aware of what those charts represent, which is a reasonable representation of what is possible from a bass reflex cabinet of similar size as those made by Acme, and that any claims made by Acme or anyone else of using drivers with unduplicatable specs are just so much tommyrot. You also are well aware that Andy's admission that the only testing he did on the cabs was done with a 10 band RTA means that he himself has no idea of the actual response of his own product. He obviously has no problem with that as [i]"I didn't have the capability of printing out a curve of any type then, and I don't give a damn now."[/i]
Why you don't have a problem with that is most curious. Let me refresh your memory:

"[i]My question is, unless they are flat out lying, there must be some aspect of truth to the "published specs" of the major cab makers. Does anyone know how they can legally get away with these specs?"[/i]-Kramer-

[b]
[i]"...they are flat out lying... "[/i]

This is indeed the case.
Alex[/b]
__________________

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=371215"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=371215[/url]

How incongruous.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='77145' date='Oct 20 2007, 10:02 PM']Let me refresh your memory:

"[i]My question is, unless they are flat out lying, there must be some aspect of truth to the "published specs" of the major cab makers. Does anyone know how they can legally get away with these specs?"[/i]-Kramer-

[b]
[i]"...they are flat out lying... "[/i]

This is indeed the case.
Alex[/b]
__________________

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=371215"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=371215[/url]

How incongruous.[/quote]

That statement of mine was with reference to the vast majority of cab makers, not Acme. I didn't reply at greater length because I've stated my view so many times. If you care to search for any of my other posts on talkbass on this subject then you'll see my view is consistent.

I have heard anecdotal evidence from trustworthy bassists that have run accurate analysis on Acme cabs that supports the response claims. To put this matter to bed I will carry out some analysis of my own cabs once I have the facilities sorted. Until then I will enjoy that they are very small, sound very nice and go plenty loud enough and have served me well for many years.

I believe your plots do tell an interesting story which is not that far from reality - however it is far enough that it may cause inaccurate perceptions of the speakers from those who have yet to hear them. And as I've said a number of times it is only an SPL plot - it does not tell you anything about the real peak and continuous SPLs available at the various frequencies, which is the only fair way to compare such dissimilar designs, especially with the cheap and lightweight high power amps now available.

Alex

[alexclaber]

Last words:

[url="http://www.acmebass.com/index.html"]http://www.acmebass.com/index.html[/url]

[url="http://www.acmebass.com/forum/andy_lewis_on_horns.htm"]http://www.acmebass.com/forum/andy_lewis_on_horns.htm[/url]

Alex

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='77269' date='Oct 21 2007, 07:51 AM']Last words:


[url="http://www.acmebass.com/forum/andy_lewis_on_horns.htm"]http://www.acmebass.com/forum/andy_lewis_on_horns.htm[/url]

Alex[/quote]Mere coincidence that this was added to his site in the last 48 hours? A man who is as confident in the superiority of his products as Mr Lewis claims to be should have nothing to fear from a mere pinhead with a website who provides plans to do-it-yourselfers. Or should he? Methinks he doth protest too much. And that is my last word.

[The Funk]

What have I started? This was not what I intended!

I understand that people who are passionate about their designs and products may react angrily when they feel they're being undermined or unjustifiably criticised - but this is too much.

Both ACME and BFM have a reputation for being the best kept secrets in bass cabs, which is why I'm interested in knowing more. But it's hard to compare products you won't find in a shop, so I started this discussion to seek other people's views.

I thought Bill's speculative charts were helpful - he did say they were speculative and that he'd prefer to see one produced by Andy himself. It's all gotten a bit out of hand.