PeteinKent

My gig was sh*t! It was a duo and my partner who plays guitar was all over the shop. Picked up second set though. Just a bad day at the office I suppose.

[quote name='Doddy' post='1220769' date='May 5 2011, 10:56 AM']Yes, I'm going to suggest otherwise. You seem to have the opinion that all jazz musicians think that they are better than everyone else- I'm sorry,but it's complete bullshit. The fact that you are making the distinction between 'the jazz fraternity' and 'the rest of us' seems to me that you've had a run in with a jazz player and have got a chip on your shoulder about it. Like I said earlier,a good musician is a good musician regardless of genre. I will say though,that although the majority of my gigs are in the rock/pop/funk scene,studying and playing jazz has seriously improved me as a musician way more than studying rock and pop.[/quote] The last sentence of your above posting just emphasises the point I have been making. Also I am nearly 52 years old , I got my first bass when I was 14 and I have been gigging regularly since I was 18. Over that 37 plus year period I have worked with dozens of jazz players and met and talked to dozens more and the vast majority of them go from being mildly patronising to downright withering about all over styles of music but rock/pop in particular. So, unless I have been quite spectacularly unlucky, its not bullshit son!

[quote name='Doddy' post='1220516' date='May 5 2011, 02:26 AM']No...the quote was suggesting that any musician,regardless of genre,would be better for learning more about music. Nowhere in this thread has anyone said anything about jazz musicians being 'superior' players to rock musicians until your posts.You claim that jazz musicians 'want to be elitist' and are jealous of pop/rock musicians because you are playing to a room full of people dancing. Isn't that just another way of saying that what you play is 'better' because people are dancing to the music and therefor slightly elitist? The fact is a good musician is a good musician whatever genre they favour. I don't accept that many (if not most) jazz musicians consider themselves superior to rock/pop musicians either.Again every area of music has people with an attitude-Original bands think they are better than cover bands,Guitar players think they are better than Bass players... it always happens. I will say though,that most of my favourite musicians have had some degree of Jazz education.[/quote] Absolutely not... what I am saying is that I play with sincerity, passion and skill and, mostly, as long as the audience is happy then I am happy. I would never suggest to a jazz, folk, brass band or klezmer musician that I am in any way superior to them but it is un-realistic for the jazz fraternity to suggest that they do not consider themselves to be a cut above the rest of us. Or are you going to suggest otherwise?

[quote name='Hector' post='1220434' date='May 4 2011, 11:33 PM']Not quite sure why you've decided to post in this thread? I mean, the topic title makes it clear what the content is gonna be. None of us really care if you have some chip on your shoulder about Jazz, it's your loss. (And by the way, for someone who seems to avoid Jazz like the plague, you seem to know an awful lot about it and the mindset of people who are into it - opinions not based on actual experience or familiarity?).[/quote] Of course it's the 'none of us' phrase that really gives it all away here. You are not one of our fraternity so therefore how do you have the temerity to criticise us? Plus its the very fact that I have no chip on my shoulder about any form of music that is the hub of my posts. Each to their own, plus support every musician /band as long as they play with sincerity and passion and are not being dismissive about what they are playing or their audience. And as for 'avoiding jazz like the plague'..this is simply untrue. Even now when I encounter any form of jazz music I listen with with expectation and hope but often the experience is degraded by the attitude of the musicians and audience if and when I inform them conversationally that I am a pop/rock musician. There is some jazz music I absolutely love as there is country/punk/reggae/world music I love. But only jazz makes this difficult...you are either in or you are out. To reiterate the opening line from my original post...'I have nothing against jazz per se'. I just find the attitude of the jazz fraternity often very abrasive if not downright unpleasant. Is there really any jazz musician on here who wants to claim that jazz is 'inclusive' ?

[quote name='Doddy' post='1220354' date='May 4 2011, 10:20 PM']I love the Big Phat Band immensely. PeteinKent..... Nowhere in his reply did Bassace say anything negative about rock or pop.All he said was that if you know what you are doing you will be a better musician and get more out of it.I don't care if you are playing rock,jazz,pop or what,it's true. No one is saying anything bad about rock music or it's fans-they are just saying how much they love jazz and turning others on to some new stuff. The only 'elitism' in this thread,as far as I can see, is coming from your last couple of posts.[/quote] But the inference was that if you are a rock/pop musician you 'don't' know what you are doing or, at the very least you don't know as much as jazz musicians. If you genuinely believe that I am in any way elitist simply because I have suggested that jazz musicians are elitist then I truly don't know how to respond. Are you saying that there is no exclusivity/ elitism in jazz? Do you not accept that many, (if not most), jazz musicians consider themselves to be superior to rock/pop musicians?

[quote name='lowdown' post='1220142' date='May 4 2011, 07:01 PM']Dedicated to you Pete. Must admit my iPod is full of Gordon Goodwin's Big Phat Band at the moment - some stonking playing. Garry[/quote] Thanks Gary....I really enjoyed these and I shall explore more . Pete

[quote name='bassace' post='1219637' date='May 4 2011, 10:59 AM']No, you just have to be a musician. Same goes for rock. I know of several rock musicians who have a very well-developed knowledge of music - and they use it to great advantage. Same whatever you're playing, if you know your music theory, particularly chords, modes, rhythms and time signatures you'll get a lot out of what you're doing. And it'll make you a better musician. Yes, I'm sure there'll be posts instancing greats who didn't know much about the theory, but the world has moved on since then and they were geniuses in their time.[/quote] A more typical and certainly more insidious Jazz reply.....What you are implying is that I am simply not a gifted enough musician to understand the technical requirements and the complexities of jazz music. This attitude towards rock/pop musicians almost always goes hand in hand with 'the only reason any musician would not play jazz is because they can't'. Just because a piece of music is technically difficult to play and/or is very complex does not make it engaging on any level to many, if not most, listeners. Often it is quite the opposite. The Jazz fraternity is openly and triumphantly elitist and yet it bristles at the merest hint of criticism particularly from a pop/rock musician because it detests the popular acclaim given to these musicians because of the accessibility of the music they play. It is at the same time spitefully scathing about the musical hoi polloi who are not 'smart' enough appreciate the nuances of the genre and yet at the same time it cries like a baby because it isn't more loved. Well boys and girls of the jazz world....you simply cant be exclusive and popular at the same time. If the Jazzers want to sit in darkened,smokey rooms, tapping their sandled feet and stroking their goatee beards,(and thats just the women!), whilst they impress each other with tuneless noodling thats fine. But they can't be content with that! They have to come into my room where there are I am playing to a host of people who are dancing, singing and, in the words of the late great Lowell George...'Having a time' and call me a musical amoeba because I am playing popular music to the masses. Well I have one thing to say to that and it starts with a B and ends in ollox! Right now I'm off to play a gig.

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1219551' date='May 4 2011, 09:46 AM']Get off my thread. Start your own [/quote] Typical Jazz reply

I have nothing against Jazz per se but I am sick to the back teeth of the many members of the jazz fraternity who are dismissive, even contemptuous, of rock and pop music in general and its musicians in particular. Aware that I am going to be accused of gross generalisation it is still my experience that jazzers....... A. Want to be elitist but are resentful if not jealous of the popular acclaim enjoyed by rock/pop musicians and .... B. Are more concerned with impressing each other than with entertaining an audience. Yes there is nothing wrong with music being interesting or challenging or complex or unorthodox but that does not make it better and certainly not more sophisticated than a piece of music that has a simple but pleasing melody and/or an infectious , danceable beat. Some time back I was having the rock/pop Vs Jazz debate with two good friends of mine, a married couple . Both were jazzers; he a upright bass player who came from a pop/rock background and she a Pianist who came from a classical background. I was arguing that jazz often distorted the basic principles of rhythm, melody and harmony beyond recognition. She replied....'there are some wonderful harmonies in jazz music. You just have to be a jazz musician to understand and appreciate them' case proven M'lud

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1219302' date='May 3 2011, 10:39 PM']* Stay behind the chicken-wire * Whoop wildly from time to time. Except during Danny Boy or The Old Triangle. * Tell 'em your Mum came from Sligo and you may live to see another dawn. [/quote] I've always sung the Auld Triangle unaccompanied by any instrument. It was my granny's favourite may she RIP. Its rare that I have to buy a Guinness afterwards To answer the original topic...if you are doing any gig playing music that you are not particularly into just use it as a discipline to see how professional you can be. Don't overplay ever in any situation...just enhance each song and let the fiddle player or piper or whatever do their thing just like you would a guitarist or the sax player.