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Showing content with the highest reputation on 07/10/19 in Posts

  1. Since the demise of my regular slot in the rock band, I've been dabbling in a bit of mainstream jazz and latin stuff - trying to get a handle on walking bass but not finding anyone to give it a go with me. Actually, I did, but after saying they wanted me to play with them, they then wrote back and said they had no drummer so it was a no go. Hmmm. Anyway I went along to play bass at the local jazz jam. Very low key, low stakes stuff. Turns out that night there was nobody else on bass, so I had to cover the whole evening straight from the chord charts. On the strength of that I got asked to be the 'house band' the following month, do a dep on a gig last Sunday, to be the bass at the next jam and to join a jazz band as bassist. Shows you can fool a lot of the people some of the time. To be fair, I know the repertoire inside out - but as a listener, or a saxophonist. I'm less secure with all the walking bass patterns - I'm sure the low riders in the audience are cringing. But the drummer at the dep gig said how much he enjoyed playing with me - so there's that. I think the point of this is that I got over the imposter syndrome for a moment and made myself just do it.
    5 points
  2. Here you go.
    5 points
  3. I've had three custom builds over the last 15 years or so, and I've moved them all on for various reasons. They rarely turn out quite as you might expect. That's not to say they've been disasters, far from it, but I'm not sure the dream bass is really attainable, perhaps only a good compromise at best. To compound the problem, a few bass makers I've had dealings with have had rather rigid ideas of what a bass should be like, right down to the type of strings you should use. Some appear to only be willing to entertain making an instrument the way they think it should be, as opposed to the way you might happen to want it! Don't get me wrong, I'm not a luthier, so I'm very much up for taking advice on what may or may not work, but I've found it can be a bit of a tussle to get what you want sometimes. The fact I no longer have any of the customs I had made may indicate that some of my ideas were flawed, or my expectations were unrealistic, of course. My fourth custom bass arrives later this week! If anyone's interested, I'll let you know how it turns out...
    4 points
  4. Sandberg TT4 Super light. Mine is 6.58 lb / 2.9 kg It's fantastic.
    4 points
  5. I have a PA sub for sale at £550. I got an offer of £200 because all 2nd hand speakers are past their best. I told him he best not buy it then. He said no one will. Be prepared for dickheads too. Always post good pictures and indicate any faults/ damage. The other thing is courier. If you can arrange a courier, you will probably get a better price. I'm not sure about insuance with couriers as they are all different
    4 points
  6. A glorious mini fridge in perfect working order that comes with Roqsolid cover. Shows some signs of wear and is USA made. 4 ohms cab that is thunderous and has an amazing tone but is just not getting used anymore. Has been in safe storage for a while. South Wales area but willing to courier if you arranged it. Priced to sell. Cheers, Dave.
    3 points
  7. 3 points
  8. For anyone who was here ten years ago, you may remember me and my blog. Under the old forum format and with the original Photobucket, there was a fair amount of content that was put up on here and I kept in touch with many of the members via PMs but with the change over, mine and everyone else's didn't make the transition and I sort of lost touch with those who were around at the time, along with all the information that went with it. The blog carried on but due to my personal circumstances, less content was posted but as of yesterday, the beginnings of my ramblings are now ten years old, with 250 posts. So, Hi and thank you to all those who have visited the blog over the years - I am now hoping to get it back into gear and put up more content. Bass and Guitar Collection Blog Anyone from days of yore, would be great to hear from you. Cheers.
    3 points
  9. I like it that he won't send you the wiring diagram, as if people are beating down his door for it
    3 points
  10. Will be covered in biro by the end of the week.
    3 points
  11. 3 points
  12. Ready to start painting 🙂 First coat applied to the bottom.
    3 points
  13. For me it's just how ballsy it sounds. It is lacking in treble but, in a gigging situation, that doesn't really matter. And you can actually get more highs when you work out how. It's just a workhorse, no nonsense gigging amp, and at a sensible price. All you need and nothing you don't. Frank.
    3 points
  14. An Overwater PJ Custom with possibly the highest spec available and some extraordinary bespoke appointments. Completed in June 2018. Poplar Burl top on a two-piece centre-jointed alder body with black pinstripe (the second instrument I've owned with the Burl and from the same log as the facing on John Entwhistle's bass). The burl is also used for the facing of the headstock. Exquisite Birdseye maple board on a flame and Birdseye neck - the timbers used throughout this bass are some of the most beautifully figured that I've seen. Black hardware including the Overwater bridge and string retainer unit. The bass is passive (sort of) but has the Overwater/East buffer circuit. This works extremely well to deliver with extreme clarity (and boost) the core tone of the bass/pickups. The bass is supplied with two sets of pickups - the PJ set that it's currently wearing (in rectangular covers) and a humbucking set in similar covers. The bass is also supplied with its certificate and spotless/as new Overwater branded Hiscox case. There's a story to this for those interested. The bass was originally spec'd by an extraordinary aesthete of this parish - this man has an eye for detail beyond even mine (and I'm really picky). It was supplied originally with a personalised logo at the 12th fret and the whole build was extended as the purchaser pondered multiple detailed additions and enhancements throughout the build process. The result of the attention lavished on the bass by both the purchaser and Chris and his team was quite something to behold - the bass was also a seriously expensive investment (really expensive - somewhere around £3400 I believe). This is where I entered the scene in late 2018. The original purchaser had a change of heart and I picked up the bass at a good price. I'd decided that I was in need of a 34" scale that could be a racing machine... (yes, I know). I'm really a short-scale player but wanted a 34" that could play as easily and as fast as a shorty. The bass was everything that I'd hoped for, but in the search for absolute perfection (we're talking real margins here), I sent the bass back to Chris to have the logo replaced, have the frets dressed to facilitate a stupidly low-action, have the nut replaced with something really bespoke in connection with the latter, and have a set-up with super light strings (35-95) and an action down to the limits. Chris did all of this to a superb standard and charged me accordingly. I hate to think what the bass has had spent on it but probably somewhere around £3750 in total. Now, after a change of heart myself and the need to pay for a fretless, the bass is up for sale. I'm not particularly sentimental about basses but this is one that I really don't want to sell. It's been a major investment of time and cash and does exactly what I want, and the body has the most beautiful contouring that I've seen on a P (something that is really important to me - take a look at the images - there's an organic quality to the carving, the body is like a pebble washed over tens of thousands of years). So, that was quite a long way to go about it, but here are the basics: Precision body with PJ or double humbucker configuration (both sets of pickups supplied) Burl poplar top and headstock facing (with Birdseye scratch plate with a black laminate) Alder body - two-piece, highly figured timber Birdseye and flame maple neck with Birdseye maple fretboard - 22 fret 34" neck Black hardware including Overwater bridge unit and hipshot ultralite tuners Nut width approx 41mm (1.62") 19mm string spacing (adjustable) Passive but with Overwater/East buffer circuit (1 x 9v battery) Through body stringing Weight is around 8.8lbs (I think, I have no easy way of weighing accurately) - superb balance Supplied with Overwater branded Hiscox case, and original Overwater CoA As above, the bass is set-up with an extremely low action and d'Addario nickel rounds 35-95 - I find these to have a fairly low tension (a particular favourite). It is around 16 months old and in absolutely mint/as new condition... apart from one tiny, extremely shallow impression on the neck behind the 11th fret. This is a short line and is impossible to photograph, though it can be felt by rubbing a finger over it - it has no impact on playability and is barely there, I just want to mention it for full disclosure. I didn't do it and it seems to have been something that occurred when the bass was back in the Overwater workshop. It doesn't bother me at all and is truly tiny/insignificant. In sum, a beautiful, bespoke and custom bass with many really high-end and very well thought-through appointments. The instrument has had a lot of money spent on it. We all know about Overwater quality and this bass would grace any stage or studio (Overwaters record beautifully and thus are the choice of many pit players and studio professionals!) I'm not a massive fan of hyperbole in adverts, though I think this bass probably merits it. It looks stunning - it's my partner's favourite in terms of looks (and she's picky). It's one that she doesn't mind seeing on a stand around the house (and I happily oblige). The neighbour's cat also loves it (mine evidently couldn't care less). I think that £1650 is probably a very reasonable price and I'm taking quite a hit at this, thus I'm pretty firm on it. I'd prefer collection from Manchester, though I can ship at the buyer's expense and risk (I can check out insurance if necessary). I can ship to the UK, most of Continental Europe and the US. Any questions please just ask. Apologies for the fairly poor quality of the images - Manchester is devoid of light this morning (indeed, most mornings). If you need any further images, please just let me know.
    2 points
  15. This is a Fender precision USA Highway One Made in 2008. Thanks for the info on that Karl. It's in great condition as you can see from the photos. Couple of light blemishes, but really nothing too bad at all. Sounds exactly like you'd expect a P bass to sound! Currently strung with flats. Comes with spare torte pick guard, that I quite like too. Apparently these are meant to come with a different bridge. I don't have the original, only this one. Neck is pretty slim. Definitely not like a baseball bat. Happy for you to come try it out. Can courier, but at the risk of the buyer! Any questions, give me a shout.
    2 points
  16. I’m hovering over the warning button ⚠️
    2 points
  17. Mainly into off topic... 😂
    2 points
  18. Just to add, I took the drivers out and although they were Eminence, someone had used a knife to cut away the model no's on every one and the area that usually bears the model name on the magnet sticker was blank. They are a type of 16 ohm driver that look a bit like the beta (250w) and delta (350w) but with a mix of traits from both. The magnet was delta sized but the shape and design of the cone beta sized. Maybe some weird OEM custom job? The actual cab itself was manufactured by Carvin but I know for a fact that the speakers are aftermarket.
    2 points
  19. Thanks for all the help and insight guys. I also moved house the same week so everything has been a bit chaotic, hence the late update. Panic over. The lovely people at Lean (https://www.lean-business.co.uk/) sorted me out just in time as at that point the thread seemed to be pretty much in favour of replace>repair. Cannot recommend them enough, a really lovely couple. Gig went really well and the cab sounded monstrous all night pushed to extremes by the weird and noisy bands on the bill. As an aside, the mad squat party was far better organised than the two mainstream clubs we played last week. I'm going to attempt a fix on the damaged speaker, so will give it a go and update a little later down the line along with photos. I'm reasonably handy but not so with intricate/technical stuff, luckily it doesn't really matter if my patient doesn't pull through!
    2 points
  20. 2 points
  21. Nobody notices the bass player in a Jazz band unless he catches fire.
    2 points
  22. It will do exactly that fattening up thing. It'll add weight to the notes as well as volume compared with a 'normal' class D amp
    2 points
  23. I'm using PVA glue - all I mean is I give it 2 coats of glue on each bit, no need to let it dry first. They joints go together fine, no sanding of panels needed for me, as long as you have enough clamps. I'm just trying to avoid dry joins as its very absorbent ply.
    2 points
  24. Baffle painted with matt black spray paint bought in Proper Job. It came out more of an eggshell satin finish but I'm happy with it - it will match the satin Tuff Cab paint nicely 🙂
    2 points
  25. Monday morning bump! The Super Compact works great with lots of different amps. I know, I have used an Orange Terror, Mark Bass TTE500, Ampeg PF500, Ampeg PF50 with it!
    2 points
  26. Hi I can make it. will bring Ken Smith, Wal and Markbass ninja head and ninja cab
    2 points
  27. I got a bedroom in the new house, just putting it together. I’m going to put a couple hangers in place of the rack, but I have a single stand for headlesses.... and necklesses....
    2 points
  28. Its the sound more than the size. I've had loads of class D heads and this is the only one I've found that has proper slam to the sound - its got real girth,warmth and shake to it. Slightly unusual controls but after you've spent 10 minutes tinkering with it everything becomes easy to understand and dial in quickly. Its a bit treble shy but it's stupidly loud whilst staying clear and just getting bigger as you crank it up. I love my BB800. Oh and it fits in the front of a gig bag too....😉
    2 points
  29. He certainly is a lateral plucker!
    2 points
  30. I’ve managed to commandeer a bedroom on the top floor for my gear ( my wife got the ground floor office). Not pictured is the king size bed where I can often be found when practicing gets a bit too emotional.
    2 points
  31. I actually have 3 rehersal spaces ( this sounds like it should be on the "Meeting new people" - bullsh!t Bob threa) I have an amp and a couple of basses in my office, which is just a tiny room. I use this mainly to learn songs or grab a bass for a quick noodle when I'm working. Then there's my band practice room, which is a decent sized space where the whole band can practice. Then there's my BAR-N where we can have parties and play gigs. Sadly all now irrelevant as I no longer have a band to play with.
    2 points
  32. Evening all, Last night, I fulfilled a long held musical goal of mine; namely, I attended a clinic held by Jeff Berlin at GuitarGuitar Glasgow. It was something of a drive to get there from Northumberland, being a 300 mile round trip and faced with torrential rain on the way back, but I would do it all again. I hope that I can collect my thoughts here to advise my fellow bassists on why I found this clinic so enjoyable and informative. First, a small precis in which I will explain how I ended up here. I have played bass since I was 13 years old, though when I was about 24 I hit a short slump and picked up a guitar. I never enjoyed myself like I did on a bass and I felt the urge to go back to playing bass. I had always loved the music and playing of Jeff Berlin and I knew he was a respected teacher, but I knew little of what he taught and advocated. I felt like I needed to really change the way I looked at my own playing and what I could do to improve and I ended up seeking out information on the way that Jeff taught. I felt like my playing had hit a plateau for years ago, and despite transcribing ever-more difficult pieces, I felt like I wasn't getting any better or worse as a player. At the age of 27, I picked up the bass again and began to follow what Jeff would refer to as 'music only' education. Following that, I took strides forward in my playing and improved at a rate that I hadn't done since I was a teenager. It was both a musical liberation and rebirth for me. In time, I came to chat with Jeff online and I took part in his reading course and the conference Q&A sessions that were held for the first to buy into that course (which taught me to read music, perhaps my biggest musical failing). Jeff became a friend and I knew that, if he ever did come to the United Kingdom, I would go and see his clinic or show come hell or high water. So, enough about my own journey to this point. I went to that clinic knowing what to expect, though what I want to do is put you in the shoes of one of the forty of fifty people there who perhaps didn't know exactly what they would hear. Entry to the event was ticketed, but free, and was sponsored by Cort guitars. Jeff was funny and warm, breaking the ice and putting everyone at ease. I could feel the room relax as he started talking and he was the perfect host. Although the venue surprisingly did not have any chairs to hand, we were all happy to remain standing and we did so, utterly captivated for around 90 minutes. Jeff kicked us off with a solo piece, asking the audience to name four notes. He then proceeded to improvise a beautiful piece based on that four note progression and he would refer to that four note phrase on a number of times when he played. When he clicked that chorus pedal on, I could not help but grin. The tone and the playing was sublime. I felt as though magic was happening in front of me. Further on through the clinic, Jeff played 'Runaway Train' from his 2000 album 'In Harmony's Way'. He later treated us to an improvisation on a theme from Beethoven's 9th, which had me floored. However, Jeff did not make his playing the focus of the event. Instead, he invited members of the audience to take a seat next to him and would ask them to play something. What followed was straightforward, honest advice that measurably improved the playing of everyone who came up. As Jeff advised and corrected each player, he would ask us in the audience if we could hear an improvement in the music being played and we all replied positively. I appreciate that it must be nerve wracking to sit in that chair in front of your peers to be critiqued by one of the luminaries of our instrument. Like I said, Jeff is so warm and friendly, so adept at putting the student at ease, that every player quickly settled down and started to improve. In focusing his attention on that player in that moment, Jeff demonstrated the sound academic principles he has so long advocated and how they can reap reward for anyone who follows them. As the members of the audience continued to come up, Jeff held two demonstrations that were paticularly impactful and really had the room engrossed. He invited a lady up from the audience who was not a musician and had her take the Cort Rithimic bass provided for the guests. Jeff had her play an E in straight quarter notes, demonstrating that everyone has a sense of time adequate to become a musician. Jeff improvised a piece over her bass line and there and then, not only did she become a musician but she was backing Jeff Berlin in a clinic to a room full of people! The highlight of the educational side of the clinic for me was when Jeff called up a guy who been playing for 25 years but didn't read music. Jeff called for someone to grab a load of sheet music from his gigbag. It was in fact, package 1 of his five part reading course (he did not mention this in attempt to make a sale but I think he could have done so, as it is a great course). Jeff then asked his guest to identify the notes on the page, if he could, and as they worked them ou together, the guest played two bars of his first etude read from the page. As per a show of hands earlier in the clinic, there were a lot of non-readers and rockers in there. I looked around the room and there were smiles all around me as this guy played slowly, out of time, as he read each note. Every mistake was addressed and corrected and the guest had just read his first music, in front of a crowd of strangers. I am not lying when I say that the room was on tenterhooks between every note and you could have heard a pin drop. The round of applause that followed was utterly heartfelt. I left that clinic feeling better about myself as a player, inspired to continue reading, inspired to continue trying to improve. I am sure everyone there felt that same inspiration as me. This really was a clinic for everyone, as there was no barrier to entry. It wasn't just for academic musicians, jazz or fusion players. There was something for everyone; advice that transcends your level of playing and cuts to core of what is at the foundation of being a good musician. Therefore, I would recommend players of all genres, of all levels of skill and experience, to seek out these clinics where they can. Following the event, my brother and I said hello to Jeff. He recognised me from the chats we had had online and asked me why I hadn't introduced myself sooner. He signed the back of my Cort Rithimic bass and we took some photos. I will post these below. I am holding my Rithimic and my brother is holding his 1991 Ken Smith BT5. My brother is also a big fan of Jeff Berlin and a huge fan and supporter of great music in general, so it was really cool to go on this trip with him. I would like to thank Jeff for putting on a really great clinic and for being a gracious host, Cort guitars for sponsoring this clinic tour and to GuitarGuitar Glasgow for giving us an excellent venue. [
    1 point
  33. I think the last band I saw was Here & Now at the Summer of Love party in Kent. Great band that I saw many times in the 70s, still have the same vibe even though the bass player (Keith) is the only original left. I have to admit that I was only there because my own band was playing as well, but it was a real treat to see (and talk with) the band. They were a big part of my late teens/twenties.
    1 point
  34. Just in case anyone doesn't know who the singing bass player in Poco was , he was the man who , when Carvin wanted to make a signature bass for him , he asked that it should only have the one control knob , a volume control . And , back on topic , give Santana;s Flor De Luna track a listen , particularly the coda (3:47) where the bass does that typically Latin thing of pushing the track along by anticipating the one of the bar by playing on the four and the four and of the previous bar . So simple , but it rolls along .
    1 point
  35. There's someone asking for a J-Tone in the wanted section.
    1 point
  36. Of course, I remember you mentioning that. Fascinating project! Still, it could be an idea for other builders. I sprayed my input panel matt black to contrast with the much rougher dark grey Tuff Cab elsewhere. Unfortunately, I had already glued the input panel on, which made it a lot trickier.
    1 point
  37. Haha, I have NO excuse commenting on this, but from my just about zero experience with amps, I'd guess at leaky caps, or a dodgy ground. You can poke in them with one hand and a wooden stick to see if noises change, but they'll kill you if you lick the wrong bit. Probably safest to give it to someone who has an isolation transformer and can diagnose it safely. Is it a 50Hz hum, or does it vary in any way, like the angle between the amp and the microwave? My home built amp was fuzzy till I poked a wire with the wooden chopstick and found the dry solder joint. Right I'll leave that guess there till someone with *actual* electrical knowledge comes along.
    1 point
  38. I don't find my TKS 1126's scooped, it's just that being full range a HPF is an absolute necessity unless playing a huge hall. Stopping the lows swamping the mids with a HPF set at around 80hz does the trick every time.
    1 point
  39. Hi Folks, With only 2 weeks to go, here are the programme details for the 13th Basschat South East Bass Bash!! Date: Sunday 20th October 2019 Time: 10am - 5pm Entry: £10 (for the 12 year running - how's that for value for money!) Venue: Jubilee High School, Surrey, School Lane, Addlestone, Surrey KT15 1TE Venue Link: Venue website Map link: Streetmap link Workshops/Guest Speaker: 12.30pm: Pete Stroud We're really pleased to confirm that the very talented @mybass a.k.a. Pete Stroud (see attached photo) will be with us this year's Bash to talk to us about his career, or as he describes it: "...an informal look into a players past music trip through to how and why I started building basses that I use all the time now." Pete's very impressive CV includes playing with: Roger Chapman (Family), Chris Thompson (Manfred Mann), Moody Marsden Band (Bernie and Micky were Whitesnake guitarists) and also in their solo projects, Toyah Wilcox, Paul Williams' 'Blue Thunder' (Alan Holdsworth singer), Peter Green Splinter Group (yes THAT Peter Green), Buddy Whittington (Texan guitarist ex John Mayall. Some of the guests on stage with these bands include Carlos Santana, Popa Chubby, Hubert Sumlin, Steve Miller, John Mayall, Mick Taylor and a few others! And he's also worked for Korg and Marshall at the London and Frankfurt trade shows. Pete says that over the years he 'found the need' to start building my own basses due to the lack in the early years to find a decent playing action fretless bass in a shop. This has been both very costly and enjoyable!! Pete is still a very busy bassist in the UK, notably with Blues Award winner The Papa George Band (www.papageorge.co.uk) and Bad Influence (www.badinfluence.org.uk). Some good YouTube footage here: Other workshop ideas: If anybody wants to put together a workshop at short notice, that's be great. Here's a list of the ideas put forward so far: Best In Show P Bass Shoot Out Full Band environment bass test Blindfold bass test Blindfold P Bass test Cab dispersion/distance test Introduction to IEM I think the 'Best In Show idea is great by the way, so am thinking how we could make that work.. Other important info: Room layout will be something along the lines of the last couple of years with the large Hall area as the space where you can all set up & compare (loudly) your own gear, the Theatre for Workshops, the Jam Room (hopefully with the mighty Paul on drums) .... And in the Foyer will be the reception desk, Refreshments, the Gear for Sale section and the Raffle Prizes table Spaces: The Theatre for Workshops Side Room/quiet Room - smaller number of rigs in here makes it a little easier to talk & play The Jamming Room for jamming with drummers (and other strange non-bass playing people) The Main Hall (where you can set up your gear and make some low frequency vibrations) The Foyer - Refreshments, Gear For Sale table & The Raffle About Costs....Every year, it costs about £185 for the hire of the venue plus an amount for some public liability insurance cover therefore to cover those basic costs we have to charge £10 per head entrance fee to one and all. As stated before many times, it's been £10 since the event started back in 2007, so it really is fantastic value for money! Charities: We will donate all profits from the day to a worthy cause or two, probably in exactly the same way we did last year. Refreshments will be available on the day for a small charge of course which will help increase the profits and keep everyone happy! Last year, as ever, Hamster & Mrs Hamster (a.k.a. Sarah) did all the work on that and have offered to do so again, so many thanks in advance to them! How you can Help/Get Involved What would be really helpful from everyone who's interested in participating on the day is: 1. Donations of raffle prizes 2. Volunteers to help out on the day Thanks to all those who've already said they're attending - it's much appreciated and we look forward to seeing as many more of you who want to come along on the day! The South East Bass Bash Team
    1 point
  40. Great to see (and hear) you on this forum, wombatboter! 👍😎
    1 point
  41. 1 point
  42. Really great cab. I have one, paired with a Ninja 122 so to extract teh 1000W from my Warwick Head. The cab has plenty of low end and a great definition and attack. That's the one I take as standalone when full power is not required.
    1 point
  43. I must admit, I don't think you can beat a set of gold hardware on a black bass.
    1 point
  44. 'The Changingman' would be a good name for a clothes shop.
    1 point
  45. This was already discusses in that 15" + 2 x 10" thread, but once more: If there is a non-designed hole (like that broken cone or a burnt, freely moving element) in the case, the freq response will be destroyed. Functionally the cab may be suitable for that funny six-string toy, but not for bass. The low-end no more exists. This is plain acoustics. Very easy to check by playing something to a single speaker. When the cone is by its own, the sound is thin. When any kind of case (like a simple cardboard tube or box) is involved, the low-end becomes audible. If you have a cab with two or more elements, unscrew the other (keep it connected) and try to use that cab (at low volumes only!). It will take far less than a scale to understand the issue.
    1 point
  46. Countermelodies are where it’s at for me. I love it.
    1 point
  47. Shippingcosts to most destinations in Europe will be around 40 euros with neck attached, or around 30 euros with the neck detached. Depending on insurance, the prices can go up.
    1 point
  48. Never cared for the pointy Gibsons. I did, however, once get the chance to play Jimi's Black Angel custom lefty V (yes, the actual Hendrix guitar, the one he played at IoW and the last guitar he played in public). Still don',t like other Vs, but oh, my did that one feel special! Wish I could have plugged it in to a killer amp...
    1 point
  49. I don't think I've ever quit a band. However I've been in a few that simply fell apart. No structure, members on different pages, no real committment. Blue
    1 point
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