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Do you seriously believe that things will improve for workers? The cheap Eastern European worker is a myth. How many British born people do you know would work in a field in the pouring rain and cold picking whatever seasonal crop, for the minimum wage? The crops will and are going unpicked. Bottoms will go unwiped in nursing and care homes. They’re on average better qualified and better trained that UK workers, their qualifications and training obtained abroad, so not at our expense. What they’re actually doing, if you look properly, is making it harder for you and I to go abroad to work. They’ve also lowered the salary cap for workers from abroad, and lowered the minimum qualification from a degree to the equivalent of an A level. Bearing in mind that most Europeans have a fantastic grasp of English, then the requirement to speak English won’t be much of a hindrance. This thread though, is meant to be about musicians and other creatives coming here, and us going there. Everyone I know from both sides of the channel who has performed abroad, in whatever capacity is saying the new rules will prevent them from doing so in the future. The only people who aren’t, have probably never performed abroad, and probably have never had any intention of doing so. Therefore I would rather listen to those who have, than those who’re talking without any experience. As an artist and an academic, it will cause massive disruption, and negatively impact what I do.

I bet the buyer's over the moon

Well obviously those awful foreigners keep coming over here and taking all the well-paid gigs away from talented-but-starving hard-working BRITISH people who have paid for the social services and stuff that they want to nick and take back to foreign-land with them when they steal all our best tunes and leave talented-but-starving musical geniuses to rot in garrets while they take all the cash which should have been ours but it's OK cos we're going to kick out Johnny Foreigner and tow Britain out into mid-Atlantic where we can become the first-choice trading partner with North Korea and Peru.

Sux. We are in a slow motion car crash being driven by a government who are only out for themselves and their mates. We have an impotent opposition and a media which is rubbing it's hands with glee cos they are getting their way. There, I got political.

And I finally have it ...

Back in ~2006, Gibson made a limited run of SG basses in non-standard colours including pastel pink and TV yellow. I have long been a fan of TV yellow (Johnny Thunders, Buzzcocks etc) and so have been on the lookout for one for absolutely ages. This popped up a month or two back on Reverb and, after a decent price cut, I snaffled it. Its in superb 9.9/10 condition, weighs a shoulder-friendly 8.1 pounds, typical SG short scale ... and its minion coloured according to Mrs C 🙄. Great alternative to my 1971 Mustang. One happy bunny!

Yes. Case in point: my favourite jazz guitarist announced a 'European' tour last year. It included nine dates in Germany but the closest he got to the UK was Paris. Not the first time this has happened, and I suspect will become the norm.

I've got a gorgeous 70's BC Rich Eagle bass( fretless)... always desired one since a kid. Had it up for sale here a while back...then withdrew it. Actually sold it on Reverb last week and got the money. Had a little play on it before packing it off to Spain... just couldn't do it...its just bloody nice. Refunded the money yesterday and kept the bass...I feel so happy! ....when you just can't let go..

Al We disagree but you are respectful. I salute that. I hope I am as respectful back, Scotland were promised by the Union side at the referendum that the only way to stay in the EU was to vote “No”. This was on every leaflet . The “once in a generation” comment was a rhetorical comment during an interview. It did not appear on any literature. It is now used as a debate closure tactic. My country rejected leaving the EU by over 60% to under 40%. We haven’t voted for a Tory Rule for over 60 years. There is an unresolvable democratic strain there. This being said, I wish all my English Brothers well, they always get what they vote for.

Indeed! {Cues up "Rule Britannia} And we'll have our empire back, we'll all be able to leave our back doors open, and we'll get proper summers and winters again, none of that EU climate change nonsense! 😂

I love Steely Dan. I love the grooves they get into, I love the sarcastic, throwaway lyrics. I know there’s a hell of a lot of brilliant writing and astonishing musicianship going on but I just like the finished songs, the product. I don’t relate to SD emotionally, they don’t ‘speak’ to me, so to speak, their experiences in no way correlate with mine but there’s something escapist and very dark that’s (for me) highly attractive about them. They occupy a unique corner of my musical taste, listening to The Fez or Babylon Sisters is like listening to no other band, I suppose I can’t explain why I like them so much, perhaps that’s one of the reasons I do like them so much. When someone else writes and performs a song as great but insane as My Old School... well it isn’t going to happen. Stuart Lee is, by a country mile, my favourite ‘comedian’ but then I find that a peculiar epithet to describe him with, his work is more like stream of consciousness monologues, although more interactive with the audience responses than the word monologue would usually suggest. There is a similar snobbery surrounding Stewart Lee as surrounds Steely Dan, the tired old ‘you just don’t get it/them’, of course it’s bôllöcks, and band/comic/anything else is simply about each individual’s interaction with said band/comic/anything else and no one persons interaction is any more valid than anyone else’s but there will always be the I’m right you’re not crowd blathering on, it’s why I don’t get involved in the fretless discussions on here anymore.

It’s not just bands; that seems to be the misunderstanding here and in other places, where people are saying that bands toured in the 60s and 70s. Though they’re really demonstrating a misunderstanding of how the modern independent music scene works with that comment. People saying we should move with the times are missing the point too. This is the times, being able to jump on a Eurostar and perform without hindrance in Paris; or vice versa is the times, that’s how the current scene has evolved to work. No, it’s arts in general, be it solo performers in the experimental scene, painters, poets, authors, actors, dancers, basically all creatives. I would argue that the reason we have such a vibrant and respected arts scene, is due in part to the cross pollination of ideas, fostered by close collaborations with other artists from across Europe. I’ve seen it, and experienced it.

Bosses? Decent wage? As a boss, we've had terrible trouble finding people to work for us - we don't pay the minimum wage but the Living Wage as a minimum. We can't afford to pay any more - the business just won't take it - though we give a pay rise every year. And I suspect it's the same for most other SMEs - they have to pay at least minimum wage, but often pay more. And they still find it difficult to find suitable people; all we ask for are folks who are willing to learn, can string a sentence together and are friendly and outgoing (we're a shop!). And we've found that the majority of applicants can't write a coherent CV, can't be bothered to write even a basic covering letter and haven't even attempted to find out what our business is. However, we've found Lithuanians who seem to far more personable and fluent in English! So far we've only managed to find one English person under 30 to work for us...

This has really gone into the politics of the situation, which is inevitable. IBTL what we are talking about is the death if an industry. And its not just musicians who will 'have to get a day job', it's all the small businesses and individuals who make a decent living in the high tech and creative industries that the UK has excelled at...

Plenty about SD for my ears to like. Strong melodies, interesting chord changes and form, with solid harmony going on (also some deep lyrics that are even odd at times). They always used top players and singers on their sessions with some terrific soloing in the instrumental sections. None of it seemed forced (to me), just the opposite, good composing from a couple of very talented musicians, where it all seemed to come naturally to them. I don't find it 'cold', or 'sterile', but interesting music played with a great feel from all involved. With SD there is a lot to take in, but I'm happy with that. I've seen them live a few times over the years and they have never disappointed me. They certainly divide opinion and, that's how it should be... 😎

No, standards are standards. You don't increase efficiency by removing standards, in fact, in a globalised economy, the opposite is true. Call them red tape if you like, but it's a semantic and ultimately flawed, essentially ideological argument which is anti-globalist and inherently small time. If you want an example of how standards and efficiency work, think of the decimal system vs imperial. Removing standards is backward. Funny how even the yanks now provide data and use the decimal in engineering (and have done for decades since learning some fairly horrific lessons during the Apollo Program) despite it not being "their" standard. And funny how Trump decries the "Brussels effect" in the same way.

And it will be ok because larger bands just appear from nowhere. No one ever needs to learn their craft on smaller stages. The present cabinet are living proof of that. Sorry, was that political or satirical?

But look at all that wonderful new freedom you'll have now that all our laws and regulations will be made by sensible English folks rather than by dastardly Johnny Foreigner! 😁

Most of the people I'm talking about are musicians playing in 'traditional' bands, but I do understand that this affects a far greater group, be it classical musicians playing in an orchestra or the solo performers and artists you are referring to. Of course, it's not just musicians and artists that will get a kicking. Evert small scale high tech or creative business who rely on work across Europe are going to be in trouble. Some will be able to adapt, but most will either downsize or go out of business, to the benefit of their competitors across northern Europe.

I was just reading a report in the Guardian, warning about the potential rise in modern day slavery within agriculture following the changes. Unless you’re prepared to spend more on your fruit and vegetables, then it’s inevitable. Are the 100,000 vacancies in NHS England going to be filles from within the UK? I’m guessing not otherwise there would’ve be the vacancies. Nurses and doctors are going abroad to work, where they’re better looked after. My aim once I have my PhD is to move abroad. I know many people the same. Everything I’m currently doing is with that in mind. I’m studying french for an hour or so a day, I’m doing teacher training modules at the same time as my PhD. I have another year and a half. Will I be missed? Probably not, but I believe the UK will ultimately be a lot poorer in many ways if they continue along this road. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/21/immigration-rules-post-brexit-could-fuel-modern-slavery-say-charities

Except the number of day jobs is doing down and there are just shedloads of Zero Hour contracts to fiill.... and Jobcentre paperwork. The effect on immiigration on supressing workers wages is under a single percent. There are far more iissues, like constant deregulation etc. Sources https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46918729 https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/

Rick Beato. Not actually bass but still excellent musically-related value. His song breakdowns are fantastic.

Hi. Mr Roger's did indeed apply to join Mr Beedster's band. Unfortunately, the reply to audition was addressed to Neil Rogers and as such, remained unopened on his sideboard for a number of days, by which time, the audition date had passed. Mr Roger's has recently applied to audition for a band known as The 602. Due to working the late shift in McDonalds he was unable to attend. Mr Roger's wishes it to be known that with his bad luck as a jobbing musician, he couldn't get laid in a brothel with a guitar case full of fivers. Yours sincerely, Butt Crack, personal assistant to Mr N. Rogers

That's the thing... this the UK saying that going forwards, this is what non UK artists will have to pay and do to come here. As part of the EU, this would have contravened the FoM regulations. So you've got this the wrong way around... What a lot of people don't realise is how touring for all bands works when it's properly organised with crews etc. Having to organise and pay for visas will not only stop a lot of touring bands coming here, but when reciprocated, which it will be, will stop a lot of UK bands going to the EU, which frankly, is where a lot of the money is that pays for UK dates when the whole tour is considered. It's not just band members that will need visas, it's everyone on the tour. It's not just an EU visa either. A visa to work in France does mean you can work in Spain or Germany etc. We're playing a festival in Greece this year. It's already said it's the last one. Visas for 18 bands is too much for the organisers to cope with. We've become a provincial little island over night.

The issue is that the EU will reciprocate and UK musos will need Visa/ carnets to play on the mainland. I know plenty of pros who make a lot of their income by popping over to Europe several times a year, who will be pretty much out of business in a year's time.

Just my opinion, view and experience... Although recently retired as a full time Bassist, I had previously worked on dozens of resident shows, theatre tours and concerts with touring acts in the EU since the mid 70's (some at a minutes notice). There were no visas or ATA Carnet forms needed, or similar issues of that kind. Sometimes, just turning up at airports or Waterloo station with a suitcase and Bass to collect tickets. It was as easy as arriving for shows/tours and gigs in the UK. But unfortunately, the simplicity of working as a UK Musician in the EU, looks like it is coming to an end. Before that, it wasn't as plain sailing as some make out. It was littered with Visa applications (some a pain in the derrière), Carnet documents and procedure, bonds and the occasional sponsorship (different Countries had different criteria and requirements). Although, it was usually organised by UK based fixers and agents in advance (characters like Jack Fallon of Cana Variety Agency - Ironically, a Canadian. There were plenty of others, names escape me at the moment). But still, it didn't stop you getting hold ups, grief, cases/gear being opened up and then poked about at various European borders. It was usually, not a pleasant experience and always defiantly, time-consuming. Buying, selling, or replacing equipment was always a hassle with customs and the Carnet forms. A lot of the younger musicians in this field are going to miss the benefits and ease of Freedom of Movement across (EU) Europe. Maybe even resulting in levels of work dropping for UK Musicians wanting to work over there, due to the extra work and cost involved. Howard Goodall wrote an interesting piece about the possible fall out... http://www.howardgoodall.co.uk/articles-press-etc/the-musicians-passport

Your are as ever a gentleman BT

Yep, it's on DVD 🙂 After a few delays, it's nice to finally play the set in the hall. It was all pretty relaxed, and we had time to iron out a lot of the bumps. We finally got to see the lighting today too, even if it was just ticking over. It's going to be insane. Apologies for the photofest. This is my shout mic button. I can press this at any time and discreetly ask the nice chaps on monitors to turn the guitars down 😄 Amp. Yum. (Box on top is LR Baggs Venue DI) Guitar corner.. Rhythm section... centre of the stage where we should be 🙂 FOH More cameras The video department. The lights are on... The sirens of Scotswood... they sing like angels. Chris Cowie (Assistant Director) and Geoff Wonfor (Director). Between them they've done The Beatles Anthology, Top of the Pops.. all sorts.

Yep, they did. They voted to be part of the Union - in the EU. That has now changed - if they want to decide their own future & take back sovereignty, why should they be stopped? Taking back control, eh?

Has anyone considered creating a new country out of the Celtic/Gaelic fringe, and just expelling England? Being half-Scottish myself, I'd apply for one of your new Passports.

Is it ok to say Moooooooo.?

Cheers all! A little bit about the band. MD and keyboard / Hammond player Alan Clark is a Rock and Roll hall-of-famer, inducted with Dire Straits. He's also recorded with some bloke called Bob. Here he is in action: Multi-instrumentalist Peter Tickell is a new addition to the band. He sometimes tours with a bloke called Gordon. And sometimes Peter Gabriel and Paul Simon. This is him on his main instrument, violin: One of our lovely backing vocalists is Lorraine Crosby. You can hear her duet with a bloke called Marvin here: Jings.

I can't see that that would make any difference at all, as a large percentage of music enjoyed in the UK is in English - opera being a notable exception. Or maybe the UK government wonks will try to insist English is used in all musical performance. Wouldn't put it past them...

What it really means for many people I know is forget about making a living from playing music and go and get a job in a call centre. Meanwhile, all the decent work will go to those with an EU passport.

It was clear the moment that leaving the EU and not being parf of EU FoM was mooted. You'll need a visa to work over there. That's that. And Non UK citizens will need a visa to work here. That's what Brexit means for people who work in different countries. Simple as that. The cost and hassle of which will mean less of it goes on.

Tarted her up a bit

Cultural enrichment can’t be replaced by Spotify. It’s regression, not moving with the times.

I’m really going to struggle to be honest. My mates have visas but mine’s a MasterCard 🙁

Needing a Carnet to take your equipment is going to be huge PITA in its own right.

I'm afraid that's a rather blinkered view that ignores the fact that all art is entirely subjective.. All it says is " the music I like is better than the music you like, and not only that but you must be completely clueless not to like my music". I could say exactly the same (possibly with more reason 😉) about those who don't like proper innovators like, say, Derek Bailey. Or Ornette Coleman. Or Ronald Shannon Jackson's Decoding Society... 😋

i'm another who in answer to the OP, can genuinely can say 'mine'.

I run an SME. We employ 3 people. 2 of them are youngish. All British. They’re all sound and we pay to train them. Unfortunately, we won’t be employing any more people, British or not for the foreseeable as to expand we would rely on EU grants, as we did when we set up, as our business is heavily reliant on plant and capital investment. There are no UK equivalents and none are expected to replace them.

I’ve always thought that there is a more energetic live scene on the continent than here, certainly at smaller venues. The more niche acts that I like and have liked in the past, always seem to do quite a bit on the continent. For those type of acts that are UK based, I imagine that this will certainly impact their income. For those acts outside the EU, principally the US (Robben Ford, The Aristocrats, etc for instance), having to obtain 2 sets of visas will probably have them bypass the UK altogether as they barely play here on their European tours in the first place. It’s a shoddy state of affairs. Oh yeah, IBTL!

Except that more peopl voted for parties that were remain or 2nd ref than leave in the last election, but the biggest leave party gets a huge majority in our quite frankly, f****d voting system

Think of how difficult it must have been for bands back in the 60s/70s to do all this without the benefits of the internet to help and take the strain. They all managed, why would we be so pitiably unable. Sure it’s more to do but those that want to do it will do, and reap the rewards that those that can’t be bothered let them take.

Try reading Elegant Hipsters, Fagen’s autobiography. He is painfully honest about his character and his world view, and his defence, which was to adopt a cynical and ironic distancing style. I feel the songs capture and express this very well. To my mind, he found a match in Walter Becker, and between them they confected the Dan sound from their deep affection for American music, which arises from colossally dysfunctional American culture. For me there is a very powerful effect created by this queasy juxtaposition of The Great American Songbook and existential dread. He articulates all of this better than I can in his book, which is well worth a read.

The answer is yes they do, which is why you don't see too many touring at club level unless they have a bit of organisational backing or money behind them. The other factor is that you generally don't make money from touring the UK at club level, whereas you do in Europe. It is very worrying for some of my pro mates who are wondering how they are going to make a living.