WalMan

[quote name='jonsebass' timestamp='1337971401' post='1668293'] So, one thing ive learnt is to keep a note and receipt for everything. Now - do i just do this for the earnings I receive, or totally for the band; IE - Gig at X pub = band gets paid £200. Out of that £200, we all get £40 (£200/5) Do i just record MY expenses, and leave it to the rest of the band to do their own? [/quote] [quote name='jonsebass' timestamp='1337976259' post='1668384'] Its a covers band - there are no leaders really. We book gigs together, and split all the dough equally - i provide insurance and publicity [/quote] ...and here's where the "it depends" comes. Yes probably but then again your band is [i][u]strictly[/u][/i] a partnership and technically ought to register itself and do returns of the band profit split between all of you. building in individual claims for personal expenses, BUT that is a complete & utter nightmare!!! If you're in two or three bands and do some deps, that gets technically even worse. For the most part keeping your own records of everything you do should probably suffice, for goodness sake for a pub covers band HMRC making a huge deal of the square root of b'all would be ridiculous and you would hope that a sensible/pragmatic view would be taken, BUT get an awkward 50d who wants to take it to the nth degree and who knows. Hopefully he would have a sensible boss somewhere up the line who would tell him to get a grip and look at the bigger picture. Now I know that we are generally not talking big bucks, and I seem to be finding difficulties, but that's tax for you

[quote name='BRANCINI' timestamp='1337954705' post='1668001'] Sorry to harp on, but do you mean that I should pay tax on the odd fifty quid or so I get from gigs, but cannot claim for my expenses because its just a hobby ? [/quote]No. I mean there probably - in fact almost certainly - is no profit and most likely a loss. Potentially you could set that loss off, but the tax rules say that you can only set the loss against other income and reduce your total liability (possibly getting a refund in the process if you are employed) if you go out to your pub gigs with the expectation of making an overall profit at some point. With the odd £50 here & there you might find it difficult to stack up arguments to support such a claim. So as you say above it's not worth the hassle to fully declare just make sure you keep the records and have something to back up an enquiry later. What TimR say re profit & consumables exceeding expenditure is what I am trying to get at, and not explaining well. Similarly the point about gear costs is relevant. You could claim up front but it'll come back to bite when you sell. As a rule of thumb compare income with expenses on consumables (strings, mileage, batteries, insurance etc) and initially ignore gear. If there's a net loss (likely with pub gigs) you're OK. And as Twigman says, beware relying on advice from HMRC helplines. Generally you will be talking to low level call centre drones with fairly basic training. Tax legislation and associated textbooks cover a large wall at the office. Very few things in tax are black or white, just shades & & so often the answer to a tax question is "it depends" As you have found, an enquiry by HMRC is a major PITA. If you have the records it shouldn't be an issue. If you have to complete tax returns already then a brief note in the additional info section that you earn a little income as a musician but that expenses exceed income each year so that it is considered a hobby and you are not making any further return of this [i]may[/i] help to stop HMRC coming back years down the line and reopening old returns that ought to be done & dusted under normal SA rules long since. This would be on the grounds that you put them on notice that there was this source/hobby income, and they should have opened an enquiry within the normal 12 month window. It's by no means guaranteed, BUT in arguments with HMRC it would be a plus for you. Penalty rules have got a lot worse in the last year so anything you can do to stave off later attacks will be a bonus

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1337951052' post='1667920'] i think if you can show them recording/publishing contracts etc then they let you carry on. I did get a letter once a long time ago and sent them copies of these. [/quote]As long as you can provide good evidence that you expect to make a profit, and some time soon, then you should be OK, but I would have expected them to be asking for updated proof of intention every few years to check whether anything had changed. Still, like I say sounds like you are lucky and have managed to do so.

And just to reiterate to all those who say "I claim everything including all my gear" that is fine, BUT when you sell a bass, amp, pedal, etc that you have claimed a deduction for thet the proceeds are taxable income, same as your gig money. The rules that effectively allow you to deduct the cost of gear in the year against income (so long as you did not spend more than £100k up to 5 April 12, and £25k since) are fairly recent, and do not drop receipts on sale of such items out of tax. Just FYI in case it comes as a nasty shock later on. Consider that vast collection of vintage basses you have built up and claimed deductions for. When you give up (will we ever of course), you have to value them and bring in that value as income. Might mean a BIG tax bill on retirement from the music business.

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1337950030' post='1667899'] In 30 years they've not complained. Not made a profit once in any of those years. [/quote]You are lucky then. They should have stopped it after 5 years if not sooner.

[quote name='BRANCINI' timestamp='1337948843' post='1667867'] If they do that, and officially declare it a hobby. Then does that mean that what you earn is exempt ? cos if not then surely what you spend would still be deductable. [/quote]Not exempt, just that it cannot be set against other income in the year only carried forwards. There are rules in the Taxes Acts that govern what you can do with losses. They are basically saying you are not carrying on a business, but a hobby, and therefore cannot offset the losses against other income (getting a tax refund in the process). If circumstances change you would need to tell them, and it would be advisable to maintain notes of all the ins & outs in the meantime, particularly if you think the circumstances might change and you start making a profit in the future and want to take advantage of the built up losses.

[quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1337934131' post='1667515'][list] [*]save your gig money and buy a new bass every year - you can't have too much equipment to claim back against [/list] [/quote] But beware. As above this is capital, so when you eventually give up, and if/when you sell basses, the proceeds come back in as income and are taxable

[quote name='paul torch' timestamp='1337933679' post='1667509'] Probably been said already but... Keep all receipts for every expense (equipment, rehearsal space, travel etc). If you are only getting £35-£50 per gig then you are probably running at a loss. These losses can be offset against any other earnings (PAYE jobs) enabling you to claim a tax rebate. Bit of a pain I know but you could end up quids-in. [/quote]Although the chances are that HMRC will (or should) if not immediately then within the first few years of such claims knock you set off claims back on the grounds that you are not "trading with a view to a profit".

[quote name='simon1964' timestamp='1337932410' post='1667492'] I have to use an accountant for my "proper" job. They advised me that the amount I earn from giggng once or twice a month is so small that the Revenue would treat it as a hobby rather than a business. Mainly because if they treated it as a business, I would probably be able to show a loss and claim tax back! [/quote]Precisely. But keep your receipts anyway. If you are having to make tax returns then there may come a time when HMRC review the return and having the backup to prove that point will save problems. Whether you make a "white space" note to that effect on your return in an endeavour to limit the possibility opening closed returns by way of "discovery" of you new source of income as a musician is for them to advise and you to decide at the end of the day

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1337895664' post='1667250'] Do accountants do the first appointment free like solicitors? [/quote]Do you do free try out gigs for pubs? Actually you may well find quite a few who do, thogh it'll be general advice as they have to go through all the money laundering "know/identify your client" before they can really start to do anything for you. [quote name='BRANCINI' timestamp='1337898051' post='1667314'] Unless your earning a fair bit, its probably not worth bothering. [/quote]Quite probably true, though they may well give you some pointers to things you didn't realise you could claim. Treat HMRC advice centre / help lines with care. They are only there to assist, not give advice. Indeed there was a recent tribinal case of a radio presenter who initially took advice, a lot of which appeared to be incorrect or only partially true, where HMRC later enquired and she ended up with a large additional bill for tax & the tribunal could only assist in part for the very earliest years. [quote name='BRANCINI' timestamp='1337898051' post='1667314']Probably end up owing the accountant more than the HMRC. From personal experience most accountants would just milk it, do sod all you couldnt have done yourself, and charge you dear for it. [/quote] Again quite possibly true, but if you do use an accountant then ask them early on what information they will need from you and how they want it presented. If you rock up with a couple of Tescos bags stuffed with every receipt and bank statement you have collected over the previous year in no semblence of order and expect them to pick the bones of the business accounts out of them, then be prepared for a big bil, or to be told to go away and have a go a sorting the wheat from the chaff and everything into some sort of order that they can work with

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1337894747' post='1667226'] I think you'll find it's for VAT reasons. If they're paying you cash they need to cover themselves. Don't worry about it. Just keep a copy. Unless you make £100 a week it's unlikely that you turn a profit from gigging. [/quote]No its not for VAT, it's for tax so they[list] [*]have something to show the tax man to prove they have paid out, and [*]with the chain pubs like GreeneKing (who seem to be the worst and want you to give them a receipt AS WELL AS their own paperwork) to keep the accountant happy and prove that they should not be treating you as employed staff [/list] As for your second that is quite possible but you should still keep the receipts and check for yourself in case, and to have the back up

I really should knuckle down & do that wiki but then stuff gets in the way. Somewhere back down the line there is a thread on this very subject. If all you are doing is low paid pub gigs then chances are you are not making a profit after consumabless (strings, batteries, petrol / motor expenses to gigs & r/h, etc) You should keep all relevant receipts (anything you spend re your musical business) but note that you cannot claim those three bottles o champagne, or the gram of toot. Instruments & amps are capital items and you can effectively claim the cost against tax through capital allowances and the annual investment allowance (up to £25k a year) BUT remember that when you sell the bass / amp / pedal because of GAS what you receive for it comes back in as income. For motoring expenses rather than keep receipts for every litle item you can instead claim as a mileage allowance based on 45p / mile for the first 10k business miles & 25p per mile thereafter. If you end up with a loss at the end of the year then you might look to set it off against other income, BUT HMRC will expect you to turn a profit at some point fairly soon an if you do not will say that you are not trading with a view to making a profit and cannot set the losses off only carry them forward til you mahke a profit. They could even try to go back and withdraw relief for earlier years. Fo a busy function band then all the same applies, but quite probably you will be making profits each year in which case you should be submitting returns & paying tax. Main thing is:[list] [*]Keep a note of all income you receive [*]keep all relevant receipts [*]look at it every year [/list] If it is small scale / no real profit any year and you submit a tax return for some other reason then make a note in the box for "Other Information" on page 6 that you receive some income as a musician each year, but that income is small, generally exceeded by expenses and that you basically consider it a hobby and have not included details or claimed losses but will advise HMRC if the situation changes in the future. If you are making a profit then you should be reporting it to HMRC and paying the tax.

[quote name='SpaceChick' timestamp='1337779437' post='1665314'] There is no hope for me is there???? [/quote] NOPE!! Welcome & enjoy the wallet emptier that is BassChat

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1337543631' post='1661764'] 3mm Big Stubby - mostly play with fingers though. [/quote]Ditto .... well the pick bit anyway

The current fave from this months eMusic downloads http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfuf7GG3YFc Loving the album & there are just bits & changes that really get me. Now then can I talk MrsW into a two day prog festival in Germany at the beginning of July

As a follow up I'm still liking them on the ClassicJ but have noticed an outbreak of "dandruff" on the body, as opposed to the usual "bearding" I see with the Elixirs I use. Presumably this is a result of my digging in with large 3mm Dunlop Stubbies and the ?coating? coming off. No obvious effect ton the tone, but it's still early days. BTW I'm not giving this as a negative (at the mpoment) merely a comment on what I have noticed with continued use.

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1337582741' post='1662147'] Is that really that unreasonable? My band has a very defined keyboard sound. The sounds are all generated on a very specific '80s keyboard, saved in a library which we can take to fly aways on a memory card specific to that make and model keyboard.[which is provided in the tech rider - if it isn't we're screwed]. It is extremely unlikely that anyone would own the keyboard we need them to use and the band has our own. [/quote]Surely yours is an unusual situation? I would say it was unreasonable, unless the ad said "Keyboard provided" My worst on the receiving end was a guy coming along as a second guitarist. All he seemed to know was the chords to the lead break on Freebird - we were an originals punky band

[quote name='Dudgeman' timestamp='1337550598' post='1661975'] Top man..let me know how you get on finding it. I have been chatting to Dood and though his pedal is great VFM I think it will be physically too big for live use with all the other pedals I have on the floor..MIdi mouse is about where I find myself so if you do find it drop me a line. [/quote](1) achieved, but at the moment no lights so (2) is in the balance. May be the battery, there probably isn't one in is as I haven't used it for ages. I'll give it a go with a power supply tonight.

[quote name='thestick' timestamp='1337531498' post='1661483'] Go for it.... who cares what anybody else thinks , as long as it sounds good to you! Im sure it will sound good to most. [/quote]Indeed ... but then how long 'til the GAS starts again I've been loving my L2500's with the GB STM 6 & BF S12T, and then I picked up the Tanglewater ClassicJ and I presently have a hankering for a P (possibly 5 built from Warmoth parts). FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!! I was happy & didn't need more gear, and then that sheaks up on me

[quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1337531548' post='1661485'] Same here, I thought I played terribly last night but no-one else in the band noticed and got the usual generic platitudes from the punters. I dunno, maybe I just wasnt feeling the vibe last night? Been a busy week I suppose, looking back. Anyway, played at The Rose on King's Road in Maidenhead. Lovely pub and lovely Landlady/Landlord, but I never want to play there again. The band area is a corridor down the side of the bar and away from the open area of the pub. So, being a corridor (I exaggerate only slightly) we were literally playing in a line facing the opposite wall. Right next to the toilets and the door to the smoking area so constantly having to twist and turn to let these people past. Uncomfortable, badly paid but sounded great. Truckstop [/quote]I hate gigs like that. Last one we did where the exit to the bogs and smokers hell was through the middle of the band was a particular 'mare when the fight tumbled through like something from an Andy Capp cartoon somehow managing to miss all of us in it's progress .......... and the band played on

I played like a complete **** ... even more so than usual & not helped by my co conspirator in the rythmn section having an average night. We normally share a brain, but on Friday it appeared to have taken an early holiday. Still the punters came up after with talk of "a great night" and "really tight" ....ah well

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1337469729' post='1660648'] Oh, another option if you have funds. Moog Little Phatty or MiniMoog. [/quote]...or indeed a Slim Phatty + a master keyboard. That was on my list of possible before I picked up the Mopho on eBay. All in one is probably easier in many ways, but I was looking for a slightly better master to use at home for recording with the computer.

[quote name='KiOgon' timestamp='1337456047' post='1660456'] I sent the seller a text t'other day - not heard back from him Did you get it then? [/quote]Nope it's gone apparently. Shame fairly near and it would probably have suited

We shall see...could suit me for the smaller gig

I have a MIDI Mouse, but I'm not sure that it still works. You're welcome to give that a go if you like ... I'll have to see if I can (1) find it, and (2) it works.