stingrayPete1977

Ok here's a pic to help out. [url="http://s997.photobucket.com/user/stingraypete/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-07/20160723_123911_zpswq0nub9z.jpg.html"][/url] This is pair of RCF 735 active tops, in the bag is a digital mixer, all the XLR leads, all the power cables, bits and bobs. The long bag has two stands, a lighting rig with two LED par can lights, two LED pin spots, and even a music stand! The guitarist brings 2 DB opera 1x10 powered monitors. This replaced in one stroke; A Peavey powered PA mixer for FOH A Peavey power amp for subs A second powered mixer for passive mointors A crossover unit 2 old Peavey wedges 2 Peavey 1x12" passive tops 2 Peavey 1x2" passive subs Poles for tops when used with subs and regular stands for gigs without subs. A myriad of leads of various types, speakon leads, xlrs, phono to xlr, xlr to phono etc etc etc The fact the new smaller system sounds better and is louder when required, takes less time to set up and can be used in the same format for little pubs up to function rooms and wedding tents is a massive bonus. The drummers garage was full to the roof, he is now going to sell all that and buy a single 1x15 DB Opera monitor, thats it as you can imagine he is very happy. Inside the bag, all PAT tested and a laminated setup guide for each band I use it with including labelled and colour coded xlr leads, geek? me? [url="http://s997.photobucket.com/user/stingraypete/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-02/20160220_150135_zpsozgrbrov.jpg.html"][/url]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1477153123' post='3160213'] Again, don't use a biscuit tin and mic it up. Have a tuned kick and mic it up. I said before - you could use a tiny kick and process it to sound huge. I think Pete's statement was [b]taken too much at face value[/b]. You can iron out some of the problems if you have the power in your desk. I don't see how Petes suggestion of two 15 tops at circa 20kg and say a XR18 could ever be classed as "big PA". It's portable with high SPL. Isn't that the best of both worlds? [/quote] On Basschat? never! Of course I have bought this "big" PA but been and borrowed a tin from my nan of Foxes' finest and taped it to the drummers leg!

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1477152405' post='3160207'] Well, possibly, but at the size of venue we are talking about you would still hear the biscuit tin. Feel free to go on about big PA systems but it has already been pointed out that its neither practical or necessary in the situations we play in. [/quote] I can't explain again that it is not any bigger than most PA systems, as you were.

If we all stand back and remove our personal situations from this then this is where my head is at and the best suggestion for most folk looking to invest in new or newish used gear, the kit is as good as the people working it and can be used in many ways so ignor the ins and outs. Lets mark each typical setup out of 3 for the typical gigs most of us do before calling in the PA people, 1 for a really small pub 1 for a medium pub/function room 1 for a decent sized marquee or outdoor gig, not a beer festival just a small fete or similar with the crowd gathered around. TimR's sort of kit is fine, works well no doubt but can [b]only [/b]do a small gig, the 10" tops are going to run out of steam around the same time the unmic'd drummers leg falls off and with this setup the drum mic isnt an option regardless, again please don't think I am knocking the setup or its ability to work for the small gigs. It could be pushed into the slightly bigger pubs so I'll give it a bit for that too. so 1.3 out of 3 Dad's big old kit could possibly sound the best of all in the right hands, I don't doubt that for a minute but how many people live in a farm house in France to keep it all and have a spare Renault Traffic to get it all to the gig?, once at the gigs TimR's kit is suited for Dad ain't going to get the kit and the musicians or an audience in the pub, damn! It will of course do the bigger pubs and the larger gigs so 2 out 3. The full range tops and a digital desk is slightly bigger than the first option, possibly smaller cubic m once you take the desk and power amps away, it will do the smallest gigs and could be used just for vocals with a backline if you want no problem. It will be most at home in the next slot where you need a bit more oomph and the option to start mic'ing the bass and drums up towards the biggest function rooms. It can also do the marquee gigs no problem without the need for subs, I would think the outdoor ones with the big old school kit with the subs and a power amp or two would start to pay off but a single active 18" sub or a pair of 15" subs in reserve if you have room to store them would pull it back level with far less boxes to carry so I give that a score of 2.9 out of 3. Less kit to store and carry, FAR more options of control on the desk and the ability to save a mix for each venue ready for return gigs and the ability to cover every gig to a really good standard regardless of how you like to set it all up and what you do and don't mic up then for me I really can't see a better option for most people doing the rounds.

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1477145754' post='3160138'] If the acoustic kit sounds poor, then good luck mic'ing that. Don't use a drummer who can't tune his kit. There is no reason for it. [/quote] I don't know where you lot are living? A biscuit tin through a decent digital desk could be moulded to sound better than many acoustic bass drums, failing that leave the kick at home and use a kick drum trigger from a used £50 electronic kit and choose your favourite kick drum sample from your record collection! We have a drummer that plays with all the bands in town, in one really small place he uses a Roland V drums kick drum but with a normal snare, hats and a single tom, sounds great and saves 2 foot of floor space.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477087395' post='3159861'] There's no way I'm lugging a 4x10 bass cab anywhere, ever. They sound terrible. I think (from your drawing) you have an[b] image stuck in your head.[/b] [/quote] [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477144037' post='3160129'] I use 2 2x10" stacked vertically so the bass is already at ear height. We don't need/have a fill monitor for the drummer. [/quote] So other than the stacking of the speakers and no drum fill my drawing was bang on then

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477138169' post='3160081'] I've had the same argument with drummers before - my bass drum needs to sound like "X", mic it up. We are a live band not a CD recording. You can't make something sound like something else. [/quote] Err you are the guy saying my views are stuck in the past right? Have you heard what a piece of crap kick drum sounds like live through a gate and compressor? Trust me it sounds like something else! I'm still waiting for you to tell me what you are doing differently to the illustrations above regarding backline, I suspect it's just what I've drawn but for different speaker sizes?

No one needs to be overly louder than anyone else, everything in the pa allows full control of the individual elements of the band, once you get to small pub level that needs constraint of the backline regardless of the size of the equipment. What bands did forty years ago is down to the equipment that was available then, it makes it no better and certainly no less heavy and awkward to setup or store for your typical pub band.

I prefer the Greenboy stuff to the Barefaced stuff from what I have heard, IMO the Crazy 8 is all over the one10, I would like to compare a Fearless f110 to the BF with the same amp and basses before parting with any money, that said the Fearless is more than twice the price!

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1477087968' post='3159866'] As well as the heavy flaked sparkles there was a range of more subtle ones, often burst colours such as blue dawn and Autumn Red burst - again quite rare but they do crop up. [/quote] I have a Blue Pearl SR5, it's a flat blue hanging on the wall right now, put it in the sun at a summer festival and it's a glitter ball!

Jeez that is terrible!

That maple has turned out really well! does it sound more like a maple neck now? It is only a matter of time before a pub 'expert' tells you after the gig how nice it sounded and that he knew it was a maple board Ray as soon as he walked in, more mellow sounding

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1477124602' post='3159955'] surely if you're using an unmiced drum kit, which we do (trust me it's loud enough for a pub gig) you need a backline loud enough so you and the drummer can hear what's going off (assuming no IEM) which, will be loud enough for the rest of the room as is the unmiced drum kit, if you see what I'm getting at, we take about 40 minutes to set up and at the end of the gig we're away in about 20 minutes which for me is a big plus There's also the aesthetics to consider, having a big backine is more Rock and Roll IMO of course [/quote] This is back to the exact contradiction about putting the bass in the pa, you can't tell us that no one needs to be putting bass in the pa in a pub because the backline bass amp will fill the whole room even when full of people right to the back including hearing all those tasty fills up the dusty end then at the same time say that those who have bass in the pa and a small stage monitor or three wont be able to hear it right next to the pa and the monitors. Can you see what I'm saying? Both ways work fine I'll be doing both in the future, if I already had a pa big enough for every gig we'd ever do that cant handle bass I wouldn't change it but on the other hand if you already have some tasty pa tops then I'm not going to take those plus a large backline to a tiny pub or go out and buy another pair of smaller tops which need paying for and storing at home with the bigger ones I've already bought,lol If you are in the market for a new pa and like most people you are looking for smaller lightweight bass gear setup, I'm suggesting (not forcing) you buy a slightly bigger pa and a smaller set of amps, more room on stage in smaller venues and more control over the overall volume are massive plus points for anyone playing smaller venues, if it turns out to be a decent sized function room you just slide the volume up, job done

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477087395' post='3159861'] I think (from your drawing) you have an image stuck in your head. . [/quote] In what way? If you read the first line I clearly state that there will be variations on speaker sizes, what are you monitoring the guitar and bass with then?

See here's my thinking complete with expert diagrams! This is what many of us have used in the past and still are using ime. [URL=http://s997.photobucket.com/user/stingraypete/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-10/20161021_211739_zps3ryp3v7e.jpg.html][IMG]http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af100/stingraypete/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-10/20161021_211739_zps3ryp3v7e.jpg[/IMG][/URL] Variations on exact cab sizes yes I know, 12" subs, 2 1x12 bass cabs etc but the basic jist and hauling is the same more or less, you still need a mixing desk and power amp, two pa tops, stands, monitors for vocals but two large backline cabs for guitar and bass. The guitarist bringing a smaller amp, no mixer and no power amp but two bigger PA cabs is neither here nor there imo and most of us here haven't got TimR's guitarist in our band afaik? Now this is our setup, we sometimes use slightly larger backline if there is stage room. [URL=http://s997.photobucket.com/user/stingraypete/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-10/20161021_211722_zpsqegsc2hz.jpg.html][IMG]http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af100/stingraypete/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-10/20161021_211722_zpsqegsc2hz.jpg[/IMG][/URL] The option to add a hired sub or two takes that to anything I'd mix myself before calling in the pros with the full 6 D&B monitors! From what I gather this is what EBS_freak is running but with a pair of huge RCF subs for serious gigs? Coupled with the whole band on wireless instruments and wireless in ears that's a crazy quick setup and strip down with near identical FOH and a silent feed back free stage area regardless of the venue. [URL=http://s997.photobucket.com/user/stingraypete/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-10/20161021_211702_zpsd7kmtfhh.jpg.html][IMG]http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af100/stingraypete/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-10/20161021_211702_zpsd7kmtfhh.jpg[/IMG][/URL] Now I can see buying a huge RCF pa for the tickled trout would be crazy money just for that but who's band ONLY does gigs where you can only use the smallest kit? The storage space at home is now far smaller than what a typical old Peavey PA, desk,amps,subs and monitors take up. Now I appreciate Tim is happy and that Dad is happy, thats cool but not everyone reading this has either a guitarist that can't fit the tops in their car or bought their kit in 1973 and feels it and the enormous van required to get it to the gig are the best solution especially if they are in the market for a new system. There are lots of ways of doing small venue sound but for me a pa that can do small and large venues saves storage space at home and makes life simple, the fact the digital mixer has a van load of equivalent analogue kit in a box smaller than a shoe box is the cherry on top!

Hens teeth, unicorn milk etc etc

I was recommended the DB opera range for your situation, I'm told they are to RCF what squier are to Fender. We've only got the 10s for vocal duties and a bit of guitar but tbh they work ok with a sensible bit of kick drum and bass guitar with the bottom end cut a little bit, the drummer is changing his old fashion mountain of peavey kit to a single 12 or even a 15 version. They sound nice as vocal FOH too.

That looks really good, as a man that like you likes a proper mans nut width and jazz basses I can see that is a proper solution well done

Probably best, good luck

Mine was in tune when I bought it.

A digital mixer can be had for around £200 with all the features mentioned above, it will also save room in the guitarists car compared to a typical 1000 watt euro desk

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1477059563' post='3159601'] Fat Spanish waiter, you're just a fat Spanish waiter ... [/quote]Tú eres solamente un mesero muy gordo

I take the PA and my amp, the smallest vocal PA and a pair of 2x10 bass cabs would take up more room than my combo and two full range pa tops. I've pointed that out ten times so far only to be met with "we haven't got room for a bigger PA" so I think I'll give up about now.

It's not bigger, it's just better

If you've got to have a PA for vocals then I can't see a reason why you wouldn't make it a good one that can do all your gigs, less clutter to store and no need to worry about which kit to take.