mcnach

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1487841633' post='3243362'] Oh dear, I was in a grumpy mood when I last responded to this I Just felt the OP's frustration. A couple of people have picked up on some things I said. I think I was the first person to mention contempt for the audience which others have repeated. For me standing up in front of an audience is still something special, my 'contract' with them is to do the best I'm capable of, never to say 'oh well that was good enough, the audience won't notice'. I'd be the first to say there are people way better than I am, whose half committed efforts would surpass my bass playing by quite a distance but I still think it is disrespectful not to do your best. Ambient made the points about the quality of the musicians and the difficulty of the music and there have been plenty of comments about not needing rehearsal for gigging the same songs you did last week. All true of course but most of those bands will have rehearsed at some time in the past. There's a balance between rehearsal, personal practice, regular gigging and the skills of the musicians. There's no point in rehearsing if people haven't learned their own parts at home, you can't stitch things together if they are full of holes. There's no point in rehearsing stuff you are already on top of and did last night. Better musicians may need less rehearsal, though I suspect they are better because of lots of practice. Simple songs need little work other than perhaps the starts and finishes. Sometimes for weekend warriors you have to reach a practical compromise between music and the rest of your life. But, I don't suppose any of us couldn't improve what we do with a little bit of intelligent time together in a rehearsal room. Sure the Rolling Stones would have been rehearsing in session men, staging and lighting and so on but shouldn't we all if we can? It's OK for me, I enjoy any time together with freinds making music and I enjoy the social side but I don't buy the claim that 'me and my mates are so good nothing could be improved by rehearsal' either. The rest is just about compromising between what you need to do and the practicalities of how to achieve it. As for the OP I think with a new band member I'd want to have a run through, just to check starts, ends and any odd bits of arrangements rather than do that in front of an audience, if at all possible. [/quote] nice post, and to me, you hit it: balance. Different situations/people call for more or less of the various bits involved. I think we tend to see "our way" of doing things as generally the better way, subconsciously, even if deep inside we really know that it's just what we came to through circumstances and it's works for us... From that point of view, this thread offers an interesting place to see how different people favour different approaches and have different goals. I didn't like the implication that not wanting to rehearse, or rather not wanting to rehearse *in excess* was showing contempt for the audience. I enjoy live playing immensely. We're nothing really without that audience, and I value them A LOT. Which is why I resented being told (not personally, I know, but by association) that I don't care or look after my audience. The thing is we probably have different ideas of what *in excess* actually means. For me, rehearsals are not for learning the songs (assuming covers, or at least a recorded version of some sort that you're supposed to learn). I don't like my rehearsal time being taken up by showing people how a song goes. They should have done their homework, just like I did. You can learn it all by yourself. THEN rehearse together to ensure it all works fine, by all means. I've also been in a situation where a band has a pretty static setlist and they rehearse every week over and over and over the same songs. Look, if they're not getting better by the time you've played them 20 times, they never will, at least not if all you do is play them again exactly like last time. Unless you're going to add more songs... kill rehearsals and just gig the thing. Many times. I find those rehearsals a waste of my time, and I don't have a lot of time so I'd rather spend it on something else. If there's a problem with a song because the drummer keeps getting a part wrong, or I do, or whatever... then the answer is not having the whole band go through it again and again, rehearsal after rehearsal. The drummer (or me) have to get it right by himself. Homework! When he can do it, then we rehearse and tweak if/when necessary. I've had sessions just bass and drums when we needed to nail something tricky together... that's homework. When we get it right then we involve the band. Similarly there used to be brass meetings where they worked out their harmonies etc... and afterwards they brought it to the band and alter when/if needed. A rehearsal has to have a goal, and if the goal is not achieved then either you need to reassess your goals or then rehearsal is not the correct approach to achieve that goal. In a situation where time is not limited, I'd care a lot less... because I enjoy playing, it's something I do largely for fun (even if there's money involved, I could not live from it alone). But that's not where I am. I'm not a great player, but I'm confident and know that within my limits I'll be alright and don't need a lot of time to catch up. Years ago I wasn't as confident and my limitations were far bigger... in those days rehearsals were more important for me. I suppose the need for them, and what you need them for depends too on your level of experience, not your 'virtuosity'. People need to do the hours playing with others, I guess... through rehearsals, through gigs... to build up their confidence and their 'band skills' [1]... so probably the people who require fewer rehearsals have simply done more hours (nothing to do or imply one is better than the other, just different places to be). [1] band skills: most of us probably know some guy who can play al the techniques and play really complicated stuff, but drowns in a band setting, purely because he never plays with other people and he's used to perfect sound quality in his home setup. There's no substitute for playing with others. Hours. And. Hours. And play with a variety of people, or we get too used to their idiosyncrasies. Variety gets your skills in shape better.

[quote name='spectoremg' timestamp='1487786254' post='3242922'] Contempt in the sense that a band should be at its best ie well rehearsed. Sorry for having an opinion. [/quote] don't give me that "sorry for having an opinion" because I have one too and disagree, please... I disagree with your notion that not rehearsing as much as *you* think appropriate is showing contempt for the audience. I would never go unprepared because I don't want to do a bad job and much less be part of a train wreck onstage where I cannot hide We just disagree about what we think rehearsals are for and what they should accomplish, and how long it takes to be prepared.

[quote name='la bam' timestamp='1487766738' post='3242565'] For me rehersal should be something you really look forward to. The challenge of learning new songs, getting all the dynamics in, getting right and having a laugh. Once band members say they don't want to reherse I get worried that it's all about to collapse, and cant understand why they wouldn't want to reherse. [/quote] when I was younger and had lots of time, I'd have been happy rehearsing every day all day! But time is limited now, and I enjoy it when we get together to work on new song ideas (originals) and 'jamming to summon the muse' or when we play live. That's it. If it's covers I have no interest rehearsing every week once we know what we're doing...

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1487758909' post='3242445'] I like this guy. He seems like fun: [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im0ZWHwaFHA"]https://www.youtube....h?v=Im0ZWHwaFHA[/url] [/quote] Dunno... he needs a haircut. But it sounds pretty good

Hmm, they sound better if drinking coke from a glass bottle...

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1487674415' post='3241658'] Yeh, I'll make sure the bassist uses his electric if we ever do another. It just seems a bit silly really. If they want acoustic acts, they should book them. The promoter actually asked us to do our usual thing but use an acoustic guitar just for appearances. Weird [/quote] yeah... it is a bit silly. Let's book an energetic band that people go to watch and jump about and dance... and ask them to play with acoustic instruments instead... It can be done but it's a bit odd. We've been asked a few times, however, and what they generally -but not always- meant was "we cannot allow a lot of noise"... so a sensible drummer with brushes and a slightly reduced kit if there's space issues too (we're not Rush , and watching the volumes has worked in those situations. Sometimes they really just wanted the look of acoustic instruments, which would plug into their PA. Ah well...

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1487670664' post='3241609'] The Maze in Nottingham again on Saturday. It was supposed to be an acoustic set so our guitarist and bassist just used their acoustics plugged in. It didn't seem to make a massive difference except the bass was really muddy and the soundguy was clearly struggling to control feedback Anyway, the room was packed and singing and dancing, one of the best responses we've had I think, which was nice! [/quote] I've played a handful of 'acoustic' gigs... I just take an electric, but maybe take a natural finish one rather than a bright red to bring less attention to it Sounds much better. A fretless with nylon tapewounds sounds particularly good in a setting like that if you want to keep the 'acoustic vibe' more, but a straight electric generally works well cutting down treble.

[quote name='uk_lefty' timestamp='1487666781' post='3241557'] It doesn't matter how many times you jam along to a CD or listen to songs in your car, you need the whole band rehearsal for nailing the structure and feel of songs. [/quote] It helps nailing the structure, and if you enjoy it and have the time that's great, why not? But you don't *need* it to nail a structure. What you need is for everybody to do their homework. It just takes more effort than doing it over a number of band rehearsals. If you have already a CD or whatever recording that tells you what the structure is, why can't you all learn it from it? If you make mistakes together it's only because one or more of you have not really learnt it... I don't hate rehearsals I love getting together and making noise! But I disagree about what the minimum requirements are in order to make it work, I suppose. And when time is limited, making me spend an evening a week going over the same old song over and over does not seem like a very productive thing to do.

[quote name='spectoremg' timestamp='1487662802' post='3241519'] I don't think it's very professional either and shows a contempt for the punters. Besides which a covers band should always be introducing new stuff. On a side note I've always found that most bands aren't very prepared for a new member - 'oh we don't do that version' 'well why didn't you tell me that beforehand?!' [/quote] contempt for the punters? where do you get that from??? the band has chosen the OP to play bass for them, and they are clearly happy he can do the job. Where you assume contempt there may just be confidence on their part that the OP is doing a good job. The OP may have doubts about his own ability, and feel a bit under pressure, understandably... and having self-doubts is not a bad thing if it makes you work harder to make sure you're prepared. "oh we don't do that version"... yeah it happens... but that's a different matter altogether and not what we have here.

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1487660306' post='3241507'] As Ambient says, depends how good you are and what you're playing. It's very easy to lock with a good drummer on the first gig. . . if you've both done your homework, can listen to each other and can play. If you can't do that then please don't assume that no one else can. The OP has to fit in to a working band. They don't have to fit to him, so the onus is on him to join in and get himself up to speed. These guys seem to be willing to hold the fort until he does this, but instead of doing that he's throwing in the towel, giving up! That's sad, because he's throwing away the best confidence building and learning situation he'll ever be in. Don't walk away, use the patience that these guys are obviously showing and get on this accelerated rock bass learning curve. Gigging with these guys is worth more than every rehearsal put end to end. As I said earlier, unless we haven't been told all the facts, he must be better than he thinks he is or they'd have fired him already. [/quote] +1 to everything. very good post

[quote name='bazztard' timestamp='1487649031' post='3241495'] assuming the drummer is good. If he isn't , no amount of practising at home alone is gonna reveal that until a gig. The rhythm section need to jam together to gel, it's ridiculous to jam seperately and expect to be tight at a gig. I'm dumbfounded by some of the answers. I assume they are talking about pros, but in reality, most of us are not. [/quote] You don't get a band forming and going to the next gig without having played together... there are exceptions, of course, by generally a band is not really set until you've got all members in, and part of the member selection involves playing together: if the drummer is not good, then he won't be in the band. At least not in a band aiming to gig anytime soon... we all had 'practice bands' before reaching that point. You don't need to be a pro. You just need to have an ear for things and a minimum of ability, both of which I assume you have if you are so much into music that you're in a band and playing live to people. Yes, it's nice when you get a lot of hours together. There's a reason why in two of the trhee bands I'm currently involved we use the same drummer... and it used to be 3 out of 4! There's a lot of comfort working with a drummer you know well. But it's not an absolute requirement. If you all know your parts, and you do listen to the band while playing, not just to yourself... it'll work. If it doesn't then one of you guys probably need more personal practice.

[quote name='Subthumper' timestamp='1487633100' post='3241453'] Hi all, I was just wondering if anyone else is in a band that pretty much doesn't practice. I recently joined but am now leaving a cover band. It's classic rock stuff, some of it slightly tricky some of it difficult. They gave a list of about 45 songs to learn and we had one run through quietly at someone's house with electronic kit etc, and then straight into gigs. I've felt like I'm constantly depping at short notice, always playing catch up. I'm used to bands that rehearse their arses off so they can perform not just play. It seems to suck the passion out of playing. I've played very well in some great bands over the years and done hundreds of gigs, both cover and original but I'm genuinely struggling here. I've been through and through the songs but find having no full rehearsals makes it very difficult to get a feel for how the band play it. Has anyone else had this experience? Thanks for reading. Cheers [/quote] I recently kind of joined a band that mixes originals with a few covers. They needed someone for a few gigs and we knew eachother... I got a list (and recordings and sheets of lyrics with chords on top, what key each song was in etc) of 30-35 songs. First gig was just a 45min set. I got the songs on Monday morning, rehearsal on Tuesday night, and gig on Sunday afternoon (outdoor summer festival thingy). The rehearsal was purely to ensure we got the ends/starts right, and where some songs blend into others etc... I didn't know all the songs at that time as I had only had about a couple of hours the night before... so I kind of jammed it, recorded everything to make sure the structures were correct... And did my homework. The gig went just fine. We did one more practice the week after for the rest of the songs... and that was it. Quite a few gigs took care of the rest... and HOMEWORK. Yes, the first few times I felt a bit nervous, especially a couple of times where the sound wasn't great onstage. At home everything sounds ok and you feel comfortable... then you get bad sound and you realise just how much you depended on certain vocal cues that you can barely hear now... eeek! But the band knew, of course, that I was new to the songs... and I'd be watching them and one of them would give me a look, a nod, something, when we approached a particular tricky change or something which helped me a lot. But that was extra, and when we had deps in other bands we also help them that way... still, there's no substitute for your homework. When you join a band that's already gigging, you can't really expect them to throw a bunch of rehearsals so that you can learn to play the songs. You'll be expected to put in a lot of work to catch up, it's part of the deal. I'm sure if there's a problem with a particular song, they'll be helpful and agree to a rehearsal to go over those tricky ones and ensure you're all good. But that would be an exception and not something normally needed if you prepare. If you do your homework, and it sounds like you are doing that... you'll catch up. The first few gigs you may be a bit more nervous than you wished... but then it's just cruising. I think you've already put on most of the work needed and it'd be a waste to quit now.

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1487639068' post='3241479'] I'm probably bitter, I fell out with my last band because of this. We made the same mistakes in the same places every gig [/quote] was it a matter of people not being sure of the structure/arrangement of the song, or was it technical issues for one or more players? if the latter: they need their own homework and I don't see how rehearsals would help, unless you just want to make the rehearsal for their benefit. It's an option, but I expect everybody to take responsibility of their own things. I would not dream of making the band sit with me while I go over and over a tricky bit. That's personal homework time. When I am ok I will know it, and then we can do it together to be sure. if it's a matter of not being sure about the arrangement... and gig after gig it's not fixed... to me that doesn't indicate that the problem is no rehearsing enough. To me that indicates the band doesn't care. If it happens a couple of times it is clear there is an issue, and it gets addressed with or without rehearsal. You decide what the arrangement is (whether at rehearsal, or by someone saying "right, it goes like this") and... what more do you need? I have used a little recorder for as long as these small digital units have been available. When writing new songs things are often unclear for a while as the song's arrangement evolves... and if we decide we want to play it at next gig, we usually have a recording for reference. It may end up being very different, but at least for this coming gig, this is how we'll play it. Everybody does their homework and it works. It doesn't work if you have one or two lazy people in the band... which is what I have endured (not saying that's your case, I am only talking from my personal experiences)

[quote name='Subthumper' timestamp='1487633100' post='3241453'] Hi all, I was just wondering if anyone else is in a band that pretty much doesn't practice. I recently joined but am now leaving a cover band. It's classic rock stuff, some of it slightly tricky some of it difficult. They gave a list of about 45 songs to learn and we had one run through quietly at someone's house with electronic kit etc, and then straight into gigs. I've felt like I'm constantly depping at short notice, always playing catch up. I'm used to bands that rehearse their arses off so they can perform not just play. It seems to suck the passion out of playing. I've played very well in some great bands over the years and done hundreds of gigs, both cover and original but I'm genuinely struggling here. I've been through and through the songs but find having no full rehearsals makes it very difficult to get a feel for how the band play it. Has anyone else had this experience? Thanks for reading. Cheers [/quote] You're kind of describing my ideal arrangement for a covers band: just give me a list of songs (making sure what version/key we're on) and I'll learn them, have one or two practices depending on how long the set is just to ensure we're all on the same page especially with regards to any special stops, or starts/ends... and just gig. I think some bands like to rehearse way too much beyond the point where anything is gained. I don't have unlimited amounts of time and I'd rather do something else than playing the same song for a 100th time. I am involved in a RATM covers band. We only gig about once a month. The guitarist and myself have been in this for about 5 years now. The drummer joined a year ago, and the singer 18 months ago. So, with new members I expected a few extra rehearsals. Fine. But the guys just want to continue rehearsing even if the list of songs has not changed whatsoever. We don't need a weekly practice together. It's fun, sure, but that's not the point. I insisted about cutting down and we agreed to a max of 2 a month. In reality it's more like once a month, which I can do, fine... but it really does nothing. If we at least added a handful of the songs that we don't yet cover (there are only a few left), but no, we just go through the same songs. What's the point? When we haven't gigged or rehearsed for a couple of months it's useful as a reminder... but that's something everybody can do on their own. I just don't get why some people just want to keep rehearsing over and over when playing covers... I can't imagine any typical songs that a covers band would do that are particularly difficult. If it's difficult technically, then it's a matter for the individual players to do their homework to ensure they can play it. Once everybody has done that, play it together. If you have difficulties then it's generally because one or more players are not ready and the rehearsal is just a vehicle for them to catch up. That's not what rehearsals are for. Learn your parts properly in advance and ensure you can play them. If a song has a tricky arrangement, that's when rehearsals are useful. But how many would you really need? For originals bands it's a bit different, at least in my experience, because the 'rehearsal' time is used for many things. We don't just go over the 'set list' if we had one... we go over songs that we're working on, they often evolve quite a bit before they are set... so at each rehearsal there may be someone trying something here or there... or we may decide to add/remove bits or rearrange. There's also a degree of jamming from which new tunes may arise... and people bringing in some new ideas which may lead us to work a bit on them etc... But just get together regularly to play songs that we already know and whose structure etc is already established? Sounds like a waste of time from a 'productivity' point of view. Of course it can be fun, and in that case knock yourself out. But I tend to find rehearsals a little less fun if it's on a Monday night where I have to leave work at 7, drive to the studio and grab a quick bite from a shop next door... tired, make noise 8-10pm... then I get home at 10.45pm... and I barely have a couple of hours before I have to start thinking about going to bed.

[quote name='carlsim' timestamp='1487576364' post='3240776'] Mateusz... I'm contacting him via email to see if I can get some sort of contact information... I'm indicating that I'm interested in buying but want to try it out first... If I get anything I will let you know. Carl [/quote] Good luck! a few years ago I was scammed here by a similarly acting chancer... but that guy was not the brightest, I found two other BC members that had been scammed and together we managed to bluff our way into getting him to refund us. He was just not bright enough to be a criminal and was a simple opportunist that got scared when the Police was mentioned. I hope your guy is the same!

[quote name='Harryburke14' timestamp='1487542967' post='3240710'] Whod have thought 50 ish lines of Coke would be so long winded and uneventful. [/quote] You're a tough crowd!!! Fine, go back to your battered instruments!

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1487528599' post='3240490'] I think I'd lose the will to live if I read 7 paragraphs about coke. [/quote] heathen!

[quote name='SH73' timestamp='1487528265' post='3240486'] I need to get a bag of popcorn before I read this :-) [/quote] well, I've booked cinema tickets for 9.10pm tonight so I might just do that with some tap coke... I might just ask them to surprise me and give me one of zero/diet/regular an see if I guess correctly

[quote name='SH73' timestamp='1487451907' post='3239970'] So if i poured out coke from a can a plastic bottle and a glass bottle you would tell the difference. [/quote] No doubt. I think I could pick the glass bottle one, and the 500ml plastic one apart. The can and the glass bottle are a lot closer. For that reason I only buy 500ml plastic when I have no other choice. Yeah, I know... I find people who think it's preposterous, but also many others who feel the same way about there being a difference, although we may prefer different things: some really prefer the plastic bottle. You can also tell differences between different countries' formulas. The Spanish one seems to lack flavour compared to the British which seems sweeter and more flavourful (perhaps it's just sweeter and that gives the impression of more flavour), the US one seems to have some more almost 'cinnamomy' aroma... I thought it was just my memory playing tricks, but I got to travel enough to believe in the differences, and then I found there's a Coke museum in Atlanta I believe where you can taste different formulations from all over the world... so it must be real. I haven't been there yet. As for the container... I really don't know what it is. I noticed it many years ago, and it's not that it changes entirely the flavour, but there is 'something'. When given a choice I always go for the glass bottle. The 500ml plastic bottle seems to taste a little different. I can't describe it, it's a slightly sweeter flavour but it's not just that. Then I don't really feel that on a 2 litre bottle. Is it the same plastic? Is it because of the larger bottle-surface / liquid ratio in the smaller bottle? I do not know. Is the formula perhaps slightly different for the plastic bottles, perhaps, related to the stability in contact with the plastic? Does exposure to light change something? The glass bottles will stop UV while the plastic won't... I don't have a clue what it is, but there is a difference. But then, I don't really feel a particular flavour in bottled water... is that different plastics? Or I just haven't compared? I mean, different waters taste very different but how much is it the container and how much the actual water differences? I never had a glass/can/plastic side by side comparison with water. Some people even claim diet coke and standard taste the same, or coke zero and standard (which are a lot closer)... those will not clearly not distinguish the differences I'm talking about. And why does the coke from the tap at a bar taste so completely different (and vile)? I used to think they just didn't use 'real' coke, until I worked at a bar myself and saw we bought the real thing. Is it really the same stuff used in their bottled stuff, or again are there differences to make it more stable in those particular conditions? Life was a lot simpler when we didn't have choices!

[quote name='SH73' timestamp='1487311799' post='3238798'] This reminds me what someone once has said to me. Coke taste better out of a can than out of a bottle. [/quote] and they were right, assuming they meant a plastic bottle. Glass bottle is far superior for Coke flavour...

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1487258534' post='3238446'] It always comes round to the playability for me, the Fender Road Worns are superb instruments, they just don`t do them in colours that I like that much, hence not having bought one yet. [/quote] I'm not a fan of the relic look, but when a bass feels and sounds very good I tend to give less importance to the looks. I owned one Roadworn series Jazz and that was *despite* the roadworn-ness. It just was a great bass. Next time you're near a music shop, see if they have the Roadworn Fenders and try them for yourself. You may still not like them, but then you will know for sure