Mr. Foxen

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1343835490' post='1756038'] So we couldn't hear the difference in the 60s because we didn't have the understanding? I'm not saying that what experts like Bill and Alex talk about isn't true (I respect their posts and trust them) but it makes such a small difference once you've taken into account all the factors that 99% of people aren't even aware of it and the majority of that 1% isn't bothered by it. If it was a serious concern and something that should be taken into account when buying, it'd be a much bigger deal. Just for the record, I went from two 210RBH cabs to two 410RBHs and never noticed a difference. Maybe I would've done if I'd specifically listened for it or directly compared them (I didn't own them at the same time) but I've certainly never thought "bloody hell, this cab goes really quiet/sounds totally different when I stand here" with my 410RBH and I've used my wireless with that and gone into the audience at various gigs ranging from the amp being on the floor to being at head height (for the audience). [/quote] You've never been to a gig with bad sound, between the 60s and now?

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1343834211' post='1756001'] I don't need much stage volume anyway. I've done gigs with an amp many a time and just used a Sansamp and the monitors. No problem. 4x10 on a table then? Surely that helps. [/quote] 2x10 if you don't need much stage volume. 1x12 even.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1343833832' post='1755992'] Six pages in less than 24 hours. Woah. Obviously a contentious area. Let's compare the high end products available. Bergantino HD410, (similar in many ways to the HS410) (£875.00) VS Barefaced Super 12 (Around £865.00 for the Vintage Cloth version incl. the current neo surcharge) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ What is it about the Super 12 that outranks it over Jim's 4x10? Similar prices, both aiming at the high end boutique side of the market. [/quote] [quote] Model HD410 specifications: [list=1] [*] [size=3]•[/size]4 x 10" woofers with vented pole pieces [*] [size=3]•[/size]high intelligibility 1" tweeter [*] [size=3]•[/size]custom phase - coherent crossover with tweeter and level control [*] [size=3]•[/size]HD stands for "High Definition", which means these cabs are very efficient at converting watts into volume! [*] [size=3]•[/size]power handling - 800 watts rms [*] [size=3]•[/size]sensitivity: 104db 1 watt/1 meter [*] [size=3]•[/size]2 x 1/4" and 2 x neutrik connectors [*] [size=3]•[/size]impedance: 4 ohms [*] [size=3]•[/size]frequency response: 44hz-15khz [*] [size=3]•[/size]dimensions: [*] [size=3]•[/size]22" W x 26" H x 15" D - 56cm x 66cm x 38cm [*] [size=3]•[/size]weight: 88lbs/39.9Kgs [*] [size=3]•[/size]Optional fit casters included. [*] [size=3]•[/size]Padded/fitted cover £70 [*] [color=#0145FA][size=3]•[/size][/color]UK mainland delivery from £15 [*] [color=#0145FA][size=3]•[/size][/color]EU mainland delivery from POA [*] [color=#0145FA][size=3]•[/size][/color]This cab works well with high power amplifiers from 500 - 1000w at 4Ω [/list] [/quote] [quote] Dimensions 30" H x 19.5" W x 13.5" D 76cm x 48cm x 34cm Weight 40lbs/18kg (Super Twelve) 42lbs/19kg (Super Twelve T) Broadband Sensitivity 102dB - louder than many 4x10" cabs USABLE Frequency RANGE 37Hz - 4kHz 37Hz - 22kHz (T) Recommended Amp Power 150-1200W RMS Max CONTINOUS BROADBAND SPL 130dB - Louder than most 4x10"s and many 4x12"s Nominal Impedance 4 ohms [/quote] Weight and dispersion go to the S12, sensitivity isn't comparable because no indication of freq range, S12 wins on freq range. This statement stands out: [quote] HD stands for "High Definition", which means these cabs are very efficient at converting watts into volume! [/quote] How does it mean that?

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1343833171' post='1755976'] Surely, the soundman would PREFER to have the amps/cabs mic'd or DI'd, then use the PA to mix those with the vocals and drums? I know I would. Why? Because that much stage volume, (to cover what the PA would throw out) would be ridiculous, and would take the fun out of playing. Even with earplugs, which I use all the time, it'd be a nightmare. [/quote] Don't need much stage volume with good dispersion, the problem with those cabs is that they get turned up too loud because the audibility is poor off axis. The not having ears in knees syndrome.

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1343825738' post='1755823'] [sub]Not a problem with the understanding. I was referring to the practicality and hence what the reality of gigging is like. It's a tradeoff. Need a tweeter in your cab? Oh dear. Dispersion from your cab isn't going to help you much.[/sub] [/quote] The idea of a tweeter is that it has better dispersion in the treble than larger cones, that is why they are small. [quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1343829593' post='1755905'] His first cabs, according to Jim Marshall, were 14" deep (IIRC) because that was the size of wood we had lying around that day. I've seen a fair few on many a stage. [/quote] 4x12s have even worse dispersion than 4x10s, that's why you need loads of them to hear and a PA, if they weren't directional a 100w head and two 4x12s wouldn't need PA support in most venues.

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1343823376' post='1755742'] I'd love to know what venues you guys are playing. Drumkit and available space normally dictates where you are going. Yes, place your amp in the ideal space but that will probably fck up the stage plan for everybody else. OK, soundcheck. Sounds great. Now the previously empty room fills with people. What happens? Yes, your sound completely changes. Do you guys actually leave your bedrooms? [/quote] If you have good dispersion from the cab, it matters much less where it is. And the people in the room don't make much odds to the nearfield mids which are important for monitoring, unless there is a really nearby wall they are going between. Check the gigs section of the forum to see where people are playing. Edit: Also it isn't science if it doesn't relate to reality. If you can't relate it to reality, it is understanding that is lacking.

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1343820416' post='1755661'] There's a lot to be said - stating the obvious - that you're better to start by getting the best sound that you can, but letting theory dictate it completely is missing the mark completely. [/quote] All this theory is reflected in practice. Understanding it means you can achieve the best from a less than ideal situation with minimal trial and error.

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1343818478' post='1755593'] You missed the tongue in cheek element. [/quote] Figured it, but still figured would be useful info to anyone who wants to understand, because only concentrating on the bottom bit is an easy/common mistake (see people who obsess over fundamental frequencies of notes).

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1343817690' post='1755584'] No talk of Helmholtz resonators? [/quote] Those only figure in the low end which don't figure into dispersion issues.

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1343816401' post='1755556'] I bet tall slim line-array-like cabs would work every better so you reduce floor and ceiling reflections and have wall reflections that sound more like the direct sound. I also think that acoustically difficult venues tend to work better with more linear sounding cabs because you're getting so much colouration from the room, and colouration upon colouration eventually turns into mud. Rather like how the more complex the chords you play on a guitar, the cleaner the tone you need - increasing the colour from the notes means you have to decrease the colour from the amp. [/quote] That is pretty much down to the bands, and thus not a controllable factor for the venue. Linear sounding guitar cabs are a bit not guitar cabs. Main thing being either way, cutting down dispersion is the benefit, the walls are still problematic, which is made clear but the lows in the place being super patchy (better how they've moved the two stacks of subs closer together so they couple). When I've made some XF guitar cabs, I'll be lending them there to see how it works out.

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1343814974' post='1755517'] Whether or not you want colouration from your bass rig, good polar response is always a good thing. The only exception is if you like to use controllable feedback a la Hendrix - but that's a pretty niche requirement. Good polar response means your cab sounds more consistent from venue to venue. Poor polar response means that in acoustically dead rooms your cab will sound more dull than in an acoustically live room. So if you soundcheck and get the perfect tone without the audience present, once the room fills up your tone will be too dull and boomy. A cab with good polar response will sound much more consistent in different room acoustics because the direct sound is much more similar to the reflected sound. [/quote] In the local venue that is a bowling alley, and with a big shiny walls theme, 4x12s work out better than combos for not sounding a mess, which I'm pretty sure is down to them being directional and not having as much highs/mids bouncing off the walls and being reverby. Although probably not ideal in the line in front of them. The lows in that place are a total mess though.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1343805175' post='1755347'] That wasnt related to dispersion, that was just a comment. I personally wouldn't assume what people do and do not understand. It's not exactly a difficult subject, I'm just entering into discussion over whether the rules of what is right and wrong matter so much. Again, it's a piece of music, it's just bass, it's art if you like. Maybe the imperfections are what makes 'a sound' seem right to certain listeners?! This surely gets some people over excited doesn't it! [/quote] Why are you constantly referencing flat response whilst quoting my criticism of dispersion then? And referencing tone pleasing to ears, when the issue is that the same tone isn't reaching ears that are distributed in space? Even if you like the highs and upper mids rolled off by being off axis, they are still there on axis, likely where the mic is, and they are useful frequencies for other band members to pitch from so good dispersion of them is a useful thing. I've already pointed out some of the benefits of poor dispersion, but you don't seem to appreciate them.

Don't try and bodge it, take it to a proper tech who will know what to do with it. They'll tell you what it will cost, it might be a sand down and oil again. If it needed more work than that, the first tech should have done something about it or not done anything to charge you for other than say it needs sorting.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1343778512' post='1755259'] I mean, is the perfect flat response tone even that interesting?! [/quote] I don't think you understand what dispersion is.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1343777628' post='1755247'] Once the cab is designed, that's it. Cost complete. [/quote] Yeah, hence the 8x10 being much cheaper to design, because it was done by 1969.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1343776667' post='1755237'] Surely an 8x10 isn't that cheap to make? [/quote] Cheap to design, and to make compared to a well designed and made cab.

[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1343774579' post='1755208'] Dispersion is only a problem if you need your backline to fill a venue if you are not going through the FOH. That happens with any type of cab no matter how powerful, how large the speakers are or how many you have. [/quote] Or if they are being monitors, or are required to be heard accurately anywhere other than directly in front in both planes. And dispersion gets better with smaller speakers.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KAWAI-AQUARIUS-AQB-401-BASS-JAPAN-1980S-/120960659241?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item1c29d12f29

Damn, that is seriously poorly done. $2400?

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1343770128' post='1755085'] It sounds good though...it sounds like my tone...my fingers/pick whatever. Surely DOOM bands dont give a crap and just turn up to 10?! [/quote] Where from? I use the poor dispersion of a 4x12 to alter the acoustic response of my instrument, I use it as a tool, so I'm pretty aware of it. I don't claim its 'my tone' because that would sound like I'm limited to a single tone. The tone is for anyone listening and they can place themselves accordingly. But if you want people to hear what you are hearing, then you need to be concerned with dispersion.

OC3 in OC2 mode is what they meant the OC2 to sound like, not what it actually sounded like.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1343769897' post='1755079'] I realise there are engineering 'no go's' when it comes to cabs, but why does the 4x10 work so well if dispersion is a problem? If you are gigging, its just a monitor usually. Giving you 'your tone' to your ears, then FOH can either take a mic to your cab and have the same tone, DI it post from your amp, or pre from your amp...so in the end it shouldn't matter. [/quote] It doesn't work so well, that is the problem. Its a monitor that you can't hear in close proximity, which is a bad monitor, the tone that gets you your ears isn't what gets to the mic in front of it because your ears aren't at mic level.

The problem is dispersion and thus its either on axis or off axis, depending on where your ears are when you eq. Keeping using a cab with a blown speaker is a terrible idea, the dead speaker becomes a passive radiator and messes up the tuning of the cab, meaning the other speakers are going to fail sooner rather than later, and it messes with the impedance, might short because it is broken and thus unpredictable etc.

Where are you, and how much does it weight? Can you basically pack it?