mcgraham

Oh and I've tried the software route, I really didn't like it. Tried, failed, couldn't get sounds I was happy with and it was in some ways more difficult to tweak than a stripped back 3 knob interface. You are also dependent on hooking up a keyboard and computer every time you want to gig live, while the XL can be hooked up straight to your bass rig or PA as a standalone bit of hardware. You can then edit it on the fly with just the synth, or via the computer, or some combination of the two.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1327851197' post='1517625'] Thanks all. My girlfriend has an iMac which I use (we sold the PC as no need for it with the Mac) as my computer. I'm not sure how much technology and information I need to get this going. The Korg Microsynth could go straight into a bass rig for now, and I think it has MIDI out...if that is what I need to record it on the Mac? Its one of those things...I know its going to lead to even more music gear and its a case of do I have time to learn it and use it. [/quote] Mm20, can I urge you to look at the Microkorg [u][b]XL [/b][/u]rather than the Microkorg? I was going to do EXACTLY the same as you but the shop assistant in the store who also happened to be a bass player and had more experience with both models (price difference was about a tenner before you ask) showed me what else the microkorg could do, and also explained the lineage of the two models. The XL is the successor to the standard Microkorg, they just haven't discontinued it. The XL has an internal synth module that is a marginally reduced size version of their fully fledged RADIAS engine in their larger £1-2k priced keyboards. The standard Microkorg has MIDI, as does the XL, but the XL ALSO has USB-midi so you can connect directly to your computer without a MIDI interface for software editing of the patches. It has more up-to-date software for software synth editing of the patches - search on YT for demos of it. The software is very very useable and is graphical enough to make it easy to visualise what you are actually accomplishing with the sounds. The XL is also easier on the eyes and more pleasingly tactile in operation than the standard one. It genuinely does EVERYTHING the standard does, but has a bit more under the hood, despite having slightly less on the dash. For the sake of a few quid I'd strongly recommend getting the XL. I can also talk you through how I've been tweaking mine, share patches, etc. I'm sure we could do that even if you got the Microkorg standard, but there may be instances where you won't be able to do something on the standard. Re: Moog little phatty - it's great, but it's not exactly small. If all you're looking to do is fulfil the role of the bass in a band (as I am most of the time, though the bass is often a driving force and the riff-maker in a lot of my groups) then I can assure you the Microkorg standard or XL will do a fantastic job for far less money and something around the size and weight of a PT mini.

Walman, let us know how you get on! As a final update, I did another stint at church on Sunday evening and got to tweak some sounds a bit more and see what worked. All in all, between practice and actual playing I probably got about around 3-4 hours total over the course of Sunday to play around with a full band. Bear in mind that the sort of stuff we're doing is not dead set arrangements, it's vocally pretty intensive, and a relatively full band, hence crazy sounds are not really doable on the fly because it gets in the way, but conversely there's lots of space for improv. I literally stuck with two patches for the whole of the second set cos they just worked better than anything else I'd managed to come up. 1) Minitaur patch I created, which was osc1=saw, osc2=square, LPF @ 12db/oct, no resonance. Assignable controls set to osc1 level, osc2 level and cutoff frequency. This gave me a lot of control over the sound of just a single patch. Worked for more aggressive songs. The saw wave gives it a lot of growl, really holds together on low notes, and the square wave fills in the upper harmonics nicely. 2) Simple sine wave patch I created, osc1=sine wave, osc2=sine wave an octave below blended in to fill in the low end, LPF @ 12db/oct, no resonance. Assignable controls weren't really necessary on this one as it was just such a pure dub sound. Worked for songs that were moderately upbeat, and also very slow songs and for pads in general. Think P-bass, tone rolled off, plucked with side of the thumb over the fingerboard - huge fundamental. Both patches needed an EQ boost around 160-200Hz to bring out the balls of the bass sound and so as not to interfere with the other instruments. All in all, simple patches worked best sonically and allowed me to do more. It sounded huge, and totally made some of the songs.

Ahh! Thanks for clarifying. I suggest speaking to pantherairsoft/Shep if you haven't already. While he isn't quite doing that (yet) his approach to his band means he is simulating a lot of effects that would normally be sonic space by keys players. Alternatively, could you perhaps just a get a simple control surface to trigger samples/pre-recorded parts? that should be relatively easy to do/trigger from your laptop whilst playing bass. I've just done a morning session at church on synth and it was excellent fun. I had a lot of positive feedback, and with a full PA behind you you can really fill a room.... dare I say it, perhaps fill a room even better than a normal bass can?

I haven't come across any section that allows drum loops in the background. However, that's not to say it's not there, or that there is an alternative therein, Off the top of my head, you could -split the keyboard (determined by pitch rather than ALWAYS the centre key or anything like that), -set up an arpeggiator pattern on one side [which tempo and beats are accentuated and swing etc can be easily tailored and in great detail] -then shift the pitch of the available notes down/up to the side where the arpeggiator is NOT sounding. That way you can have some kind of regulated rhythm with whatever feel you like, and STILL play over the top of it. Re: price - yes it is ludicrously cheap for what you get. Bear in mind that there is no innate 'tone' that means the sound instantly works in a band situation. You are responsible for creating the tone, so you need to have the creative mindset to come up with what you want (either by tweaking an existing patch or from scratch) and then be able to shape that to work well live. I'm still learning but time spent doing recording and experimenting with bass tone will come in handy here. It's a steep learning curve if you've never played with LPF/HPF, filter, chorus, flanger, compressor, different wave forms etc before, but I've found visualising it help.

[quote name='nottswarwick' timestamp='1327741365' post='1515992'] Do you go through your bass rig with these?[/quote] Yes - good question! My rig is a Berg stack, so relatively flat anyway. My extremely limited experience is that you ideally need to tailor each sound to the rig, room and band you're doing. How well the patch comes out over the amplification (whether PA/backline) will affect how you set it up, the room will obviously affect that, and how many other members and how much space they each take up in the mix matters. To reiterate, I am just looking to play bass with my synth, so I'm not looking for immensely complicated sounds. If that's all you're looking for then your bass rig will be fine. If you want more top end or crazy effects, your rig may not be great at reproducing those sounds. [quote name='urb' timestamp='1327747511' post='1516088'] Really interesting this topic has come up - I've been experimenting too at finding a way to bring in more synth bass and keyboard sounds into my set up - I've been checking out the whole Soundblox pedals with the hot hand and they do look and sound amazing but I was thinking after hearing them that actually I don't necessarily use a 'filter' wah sound on my bass much and shelling £300 for all the kit was a bit much for that. My thing is that I now want to use Ableton live with 'LIVE' musicians - and so I've been researching and developing my set up for that - and I thought seeing as I have a ton of VST instruments that do some amazing bass synth sounds - and other synth sounds - it's just a case of controlling / playing them via MIDI - so I bought a [url="http://www.sonuus.com/products_i2m_mp.html"]Sonuus i2m[/url] recently and tested it in Ableton and it works well.[/quote] urb, thanks for sharing! I think I'm being a bit dense, what exactly are you looking to incorporate into your live gigs from synths?

Spent some more time programming last night. A really nice one is just a sine wave at about 75% volume, with another sinewave at about 40% but pitched an octave lower than the first, and then a low pass filter (12dB/oct) with the cutoff set low enough to balance out the volume across the range I'm using it in. It gets this MASSIVE sub sound that will just fill a room without getting in the way of a mix... simply cos there isn't anything else above that sub sound in the patch. I've created another one using that same sub sound as one layer, and then introduced a more aggressive top layer with a saw wave. I've also detuned it slightly (+12 per cent) to thicken it up. I like it, but would need to hear it in a mix to decide whether it works or not.

[quote name='pantherairsoft' timestamp='1327664629' post='1514936'] If I want something new now, other things have to be sacrificed... [/quote] I wondered what the bloodstain on your coffee table was. Been doubling as a sacrificial altar has it?

Oh well. Congratulations on the gig anyway!

Does it rhyme with 'The Farkness'?

That's a bit further away. Nevertheless, she does Skype lessons and I can guarantee they work fantastically. In some ways Skype lessons work better than IRL lessons cos you get a perfect recording of the lesson everytime. I've got one with a guy in the US later this evening. Believe me when I say speech level singing can turn your voice into something to be proud of very very quickly. In any case, I can wholeheartedly recommend taking singing more seriously - it certainly sparked off music for me in ways I'd never 'got' before.

Cheers BRX! Yea the cutoff is on an assignable knob but I prefer using it like a tone control and so prefer it on the modwheel. The resonance is probably going to go on a knob, but I need to work that one out first, and how it relates to the sounds I've got so far. The decay aspect of this sound isn't so noticeable. I also prefer a constant sustain followed by predictable release as soon as I let go. It makes for a less messy sound, which is reeeeeally important with church stuff as a lot is heavily improvised. EDIT: Which is why I prefer the attack, as I've found I can totally change the impression of the sound by just slowing the attack slightly, without actually changing the sound itself. Re: crazy sounds - not yet. I'm there to play bass and just bring in some keyboard like idiosyncrasies rather than do anything mental just yet. Lack of sonic space for anything other than basslines and fills (they depend on me a lot for that) is what I'm there for.

[quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1327616985' post='1514435']Just sit down and play away with the sounds mate, if you've got preset tones that you like, have a look at the settings are set at & then go through one by one and see what affects the sound and you should start picking it up fairly quickly. And most of all, have fun with it [/quote] That does seem to be getting good results! I spent yesterday afternoon reading the manual to understand the architecture and what might work for me. Spent an hour or so last night and again this morning just tweaking the sound that I felt was almost there (e.g. learning how different wave combinations work together, what I like, what I don't, how the blend of the two affects the overall sound, etc). The changes were, at least on paper, relatively small, and the sound is discernibly the same patch.... but it sounds SOOOO much better. In the same way as a good guitarist knows how to get a better sound from an amp that a lesser player would otherwise get. It would work for virtually any song that requires a bass but still stands out as distinctive rather than just being dull bass in the background. I've also set up the controls so that I can tweak on the fly from the 'standard' patch if necessary. I'll modify it further though... - Modwheel = cutoff (for sure- works so well) - Assignable knob 1 = chorus mix (set to 'dry' as standard) - Assignable knob 1 = flanger mix (set to 'dry' as standard) - Assignable knob 3 = attack time, so I can control how soft/hard the sound is on the fly Now that I've got a sound I'm really pleased with / nailed (though not necessarily finished ) it is different but not dissimilar to the first sound you hear on the Moogmusicinc YT channel's demo of the upcoming Minitaur. It's not AS aggressive with the saw wave, but still very similar sort of sound.

Well I can heartily recommend the Microkorg XL. It's got all the functions of the previous Microkorg (still in production) but has USB-MIDI connectivity as well as normal midi, so far easier to plug in and edit via a software editor if you so wish. It can be edited completely via software, or completely via the simple onboard controls, or left super simple via the onboard controls. I got a free aftermarket bank of patches from Korg's website that I replaced the stock sounds with. This is (IMO) far more useable than all the stock sounds the XL comes with. The details would bore you but it instantly took a cool but not necessarily useful instrument to an even cooler and totally useable instrument with little to no tweaking.

I'd love to help man but I couldn't give any useful advice with regards to connecting it up. I tried and failed with that approach so have opted for the standalone solution.

[quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1327588643' post='1513829'] It's great fun isn't it [/quote] Yuuuup!! [quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1327588643' post='1513829']A lot of the synth stuff i do at the moment is covers so for the sounds i use, i program my gaia to get as close a sound to the original track. Then simply save the patch and recall it for the song. [/quote] That's helpful to know as a way to do it. How did you learn what bit goes where and how it affects the final sound? Did you find modifying patches the best way to start, or starting new patches from scratch to learn how things go together from the ground up? or something in between? I'd be using this to play bass in church and contribute to the overall sound, but week to week the band setup will be different. Hence I need some useable sounds that work across all band setups (from bass, guitar and drums... to bass acoustic guitar x1/x2, electric guitar, drums keyboard, 3-4 vocals, etc) but that I also know how to tweak to fill out certain aspects of the sound if there's sonic space for it. Korg put out a tweaked bank of patches on their website done by one of their designers and there's far more useable sounds on there, and I've nailed two great sounds for bass so far, but I need to learn how it all fits together, how I can modify them to get other sounds and also how I want the respective controls set up. My first challenge is to unite some features across different patches that I like, where the patch gets a solid consistent round bass sound with a kick drum type attack with the cutoff freq down, then roll up the cutoff to 'reveal' a more aggressive filter underneath, then control the cutoff frequency with the mod wheel. That way I've got a 'go-to' patch for bass, that I can then control the aggression of with the modwheel. [quote name='JakeBrownBass' timestamp='1327588643' post='1513829'] I've got Gaia Sound design software which allows me to see all 3 tone paths and edit them accordingly, makes programming sooo much easier. I can spend hours just sitting and creating different bass sounds on it, i love it [/quote] That sounds great. The XL has an editor too, any tips on how to approach setting a patch up via software?

I can verify that pantherairsoft does not have too much money.

Got a Microkorg XL recently. Used it at a practice last night. It was flipping stupendous. It was for church this Sunday, so songs were contemporary worship songs. The synth bass took what would've been some relatively modern (for the genre) but tired sounding songs and totally changed the sound of the band. I wasn't even using a crazy sound, it was relatively tame straight bass, but the way you can shape the sound and the attack... gosh it really is amazing what it can do! I'd love to get a bit more input from people who use synth bass in a live band, and how you set up the sounds?

Cheers for the input. I am very much aware I need to watch what I do, but doesn't hurt to reiterate it! I've had a number of instances with this particular guy, usually being present for one of his rants or unreasonable/outrageous demands on people (these are never tongue in cheek) or even see him flagellate someone else, that I've had to temper calmly and be the voice of reason. However, I think he has been given faaaar too much slack for faaaar too long by the weaker amongst us in that social circle, and I will no longer tolerate that behaviour. He needs disciplining, and I don't mean that in a sexy way. You're right I need to be careful it doesn't turn into hate, and while hate is a strong word, I certainly am struggling with not getting angry/irked when I'm reminded of him. TBH people's behaviour tends not to bother me as much as what their behaviour says about that person's character and attitude towards others and towards themselves - I get angry by people whose behaviour expresses poor character and attitude. And his character is a steaming pile of ... and he's not in the company of people with the strength to sort him out.

[quote name='oldslapper' timestamp='1327567892' post='1513338']Serve the song.........does the bass line serve the song?[/quote] I agree. I think this is a good way to identify a good bassist. It doesn't matter whether we're flashy or not, if whatever we play serves a purpose in the song (e.g. making people want to move, emphasising another instrument, creating space when it drops out, raising the energy of the piece using fills as opposed to something else, etc) whatever that purpose might be then you've got some way to contextualise whether they are a good bassist. Sure, it's open to interpretation as to how perfect/not perfect it is, or even whether you like it or not, but if the bassist is adding to the song in a way you like, then that makes them a good bassist [i]to you[/i]. If you put the boot on the other foot, and you are auditioning for a gig, you therefore need to know what that niche you would be filling in that gig, e.g. rock solid bass that doesn't stand out? a nigel clutterbuck tribute band? something in between?. What is the band/group trying to market themselves as? If you can work that out, then even you can work out how you stack up to their goals/targets. The best bassists are those that can bring their own style but from a variety of different angles to a variety of different genres, and can ultimately fill whatever niche they are asked to step into. I agree with you silddx, we are often judged on the wrong attributes, but I'd take it as a challenge to work hard at the above (I know you do some of that already) and also take as a comfort that it doesn't matter how hard you work, some people will love you and some people won't, and there's very little you can do *sometimes* to predict that or change it.

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1327518620' post='1512839'] Ah, tip of the iceberg to be honest. Thanks for the thoughts though. I do sing, although am rather rusty (sang at the Marquee once! I bet they were sorry ). I also play guitar and write generally but of course my main instruments are all ones that you play with your arms. Unfortunately sitting isn't going to help either as due to my shoulder problems some of the nerve problems appear to be positional, i.e. related to how I hold my arms & shoulders, given that my shoulders don't currently work properly. Going to have more tests and then suspect I'll have a lot of work to do unfortunately. [/quote] I'm genuinely really sorry to hear that man. Where abouts are you in the North West? If you're anywhere near Cheshire I can strongly recommend my singing teacher Heather Baker. She is an extremely well qualified Speech level singing teacher and can help you acquire a voice to be proud of very quickly and effectively, and in a way that is healthy for life. I know it might not sound that great compared to playing bass in a rock band, but I've gone down the singing route initially just as another instrument, and now it's something I can actually teach people to do and get results quickly! Taking singing seriously has really really opened up music to me in new and exciting ways... and I wasn't exactly hemmed in before that! If you want more details feel free to PM me. But do keep me/us in the loop as to how progress goes and any updates.

[quote name='4000' timestamp='1327497958' post='1512293'] FWIW, I used to do loads of weights, aikido etc and then everything went pretty much at once ('96). I'm currently unable to play properly due to ulnar nerve entrapment and have this morning been diagnosed with unstable shoulder joints, so sometimes it's about a little more than simple exercise. [/quote] I know you've been having trouble man, but I didn't realise quite how tough you've been having it. FWIW, I'm really sorry to hear the above. I don't know whether you've thought about this or how you'd even feel about such a suggestion, but have you considered taking up an alternative instrument? e.g. singing, harmonica, piano, something that isn't load bearing or the like? I tore my lower back in my mid teens, and that taught me how much I missed being able to do stuff. I then got into fitness and have maintained it since. You've got to keep it in shape, but you also can't overdo it/do it wrong, or you'll end up in a bad way as well.

*shrug* maybe he likes Trigger Happy TV?

Sure. I don't really have the inclination to look it myself, he may well have registered his rights in the US, but they don't last anywhere near as long as registered rights in Europe. I was just trying to point out he likely does have rights at least in Europe. And yes, I would certainly love a more affordable version of his instruments! They are works of art IMO!

Johnston, good points, very good points. There's two types of design right - registered and unregistered. Unregistered doesn't require registering (well, duh!) but the onus is on the claimed owner of the unregistered right to show copying. Jens will have that/have had that in Europe. Whether it has expired or not is another matter. Registered costs money, but can last longer, and gives prima facie evidence that you have the right. Jens may have this, he may not. Therefore the onus is on the alleged infringer to show they didn't copy, etc.