mcgraham

Johnston, I see what you're saying but I disagree. Firstly, the Fender problem lay in that they didn't defend their rights. IIRC it is a valid defence to argue that 'well you let company A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H etc make them for years and you never batted an eye lid, suddenly we company X start making them and its a problem?!'. Basically the rights work both ways - you should be entitled to stop third parties making something that falls within your rights, but third parties should also be able to work out what they are going to be allowed to do and what they are not going to be allowed to do. Therefore if you don't enforce your rights properly or at all, there is an acquired expectation by third parties (and the law) that it is acceptable to work within the realm of your rights. It also wouldn't be in good faith to let loads of people 'infringe', not do anything for years, THEN take them for infringement/damages once their businesses are in full flight. So the law is also set up to protect third parties in that regard. Secondly, trademarks, designs and copyright (and patents) are all very very different rights designed to protect different things. Trademarks need to distinguish goods and services of one undertaking from those of other undertakings, and as long as they do that (amongst other things) they can be renewed and kept alive forever... provided those trademarks don't lose that distinctiveness in that industry... so I can see how Fender could have lost that if they didn't work hard to keep the distinctiveness belonging to them, e.g. again, not defending their rights properly/at all. Designs have time limits on them, copyright isn't registrable so you need to show copying but the above posts follow that train of thought, and patents I don't think would generally apply, but anyway also have time limits on them. Thirdly, with all this in mind, Jens is more or less at the beginning of his tradecraft. His company doesn't have a history of 60-70 years behind it, nor a long established customer base. He is at least implicitly drawing attention to this theft of intellectual property, and doing what Fender should have done right from the outset and had the right to do from the outset. The outrage is justified (IMO) because no-one else has done it and he has never let anyone get away with it before, unlike Fender, who - looking back on history - forewent their right or tried to enforce it far too late in the game... therefore he is justly jumping to point out his intellectual property at the stage where he can make the difference. Again, all IMO and IME, etc.

[quote name='muttley' timestamp='1327488958' post='1512021'] That's an interesting observation. Ritter basses are hardly generic objects and (beauty in the eye of the beholder and all that) could certainly be categorised as works of sculpture or related artisanship. [/quote] Yes! Exactly. He could argue 'I designed it to be a piece of art, like the Mona Lisa, and each one is a unique piece of art stemming from my field' But at the same time they could argue 'well you churn out loads of them and sell them as reproducible products and not as art, it's clearly intended as a product that should be protected by design right'.

Yea, it's a pretty grey area copyright... hence I only know enough to realise I simply don't know anything... and how to point out how most of it is a massive grey area. For example, there was a famous 'star wars' case in the last few years relating to the stormtrooper helmet and the guy who designed it and was selling reproductions in the UK (IIRC, please feel free to correct if I am mistaken). I don't know all the ins and outs but a lot of it hinged on whether it was considered a 'sculpture' or not. You can imagine that whether something is determined to be an article in the sense of design right or a sculpture or work of artistic craftsmanship in the sense of copyright can totally change the ballgame, and still further affect the outcome of the decision within that case.

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1327483692' post='1511882'] IIRC they trademarked their headstock design it's difficult to prove in a court that something is identical when there's a small change and then translate that small change into a $ value unless trademarking/copyright protection is used which establishes a set of legal principles which can be referred to [/quote] Kiwi, it doesn't necessarily need to be 100% identical, you just need to show copying. It's a subtle difference, but the point is to stop others copying your intellectual property. Yes, if they modify it further this changes the game somewhat, and this can be slight or radical, but fundamentally if they've copied it then there's a good starting point to get them to stop/claim damages, etc.

[quote name='muttley' timestamp='1327480555' post='1511809'] FTR, you can't copyright an object. Copyright exists in the [i]drawings[/i] for that object, as it does in any other creative work. It doesn't matter what's on the drawing, original or not. Therefore, if a Chinese copyist company created Engineering drawings of a Ritter (or any other) bass then the Chinese company would own the copyright to that drawing. Sounds odd, I know, but that's how it works. A similar analogy is the copyright protection afforded to [i]recordings[/i] of cover versions of songs. Products are protected by [url="http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/design/d-about/d-designright/d-designright-get.htm"]Design Right[/url]. This works in a similar way to copyright but it is separate IP. AFAIK, Design Right is a fairly recent development. Of course, this only applies if the Chinese recognise international laws on the protection of IP. I'm not sure about that bit. HTH . [/quote] Muttley, you're more or less right here, but copyright CAN subsist in something other than drawings, e.g. a physical object. The divide between copyright and design is slightly more confusing to understand than that, and needs to be considered on a case by case basis. There are provisions in the UK Copyright and Designs act that stipulate the conditions on the divide, i.e. where one subsists the other doesn't and where/why (so people can't have two bites at the cherry in litigation), but it isn't always as clear cut as the above... even on a case by case basis it can be a touch confusing. For example: [url="http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-applies/c-artisticworks.htm"]http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-applies/c-artisticworks.htm[/url] Basically copyright subsists as soon as the work is recorded in material form, which is generally drawings, but can relate to works of artistic craftsmanship, e.g. sculptures, works of artistic craftsmanship... which I imagine Jens could seek protection under. The onus would be on Jens to show copying which could be easy/tough depending on the circumstances. Please note although I work in intellectual property, I'm not an expert in copyright (and even the experts have arguments based on interpretation of the facts) but I can say unequivocably that - though you are generally correct in most cases - copyright CAN subsist in something other than drawings, i.e. a physical object, and that this subsisting copyright can also protect 3D copies of 2D recordings w/ subsisting copyright... or 2D copies of 3D or 3D copies of 3D or 2D copies of 2D. It's a fairly robust right, provided copying can be shown.

Flippin heck, Jens is a legend. I want to buy one of his basses just to show how much I admire the resolve there.

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1327335974' post='1509522'] I have absolutely no tolerance for that type of sh*t You did the right thing, and you describe him correctly as a colossal tool. [/quote] Cheers! I feel TRULY vindicated now

Oh except I'm not/wouldn't be getting paid for my trouble.

Exactly Tim! Exactly! That's precisely what I told him at the start when he asked me, and he insists he won't schedule a concert for the choir til he's happy with the band.(reading between the lines: HIS band for HIS choir). Like you, I also have experience of such things being done as you have stated, but he thinks he knows better. He's an amateur at best.

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1327319015' post='1509128'] Sounds like this is one of those projects thats keeps going around in circles and never gets anywhere. [/quote] You, my friend, have hit the nail squarely on the head.

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1327316092' post='1509075'] well if you word it right they might just check up with the previous musos and see if their story collabertaes yours [/quote] While I'd love that to be the case, that's unlikely. The people who set up the choir are limp-wristed friends who won't tell you something negative even if your life depended on it. The person running the choir at the moment is far more to the point, but the amount of work they have to put in to keep things going at present means they'd be unlikely to choose to spend time checking up with previous musos.

[quote]If he (and presumably his bint) were out of the picture, would you play with them again?[/quote] I would be happy to do anything they need me to do because the majority of them are my friends and I want to help them do well. The reason I don't go anymore is simply because they rehearse the same night as my church team, and that's my priority. Unfortunately, there is no-one that could commit to or manage to handle the piano backing week to week, for the reasons given above. I know that isn't a great reason not to give this guy a metaphorical kicking, but at the same time the choir is in a not-so-great state that mean it could well fold if there isn't a musician handling the backing duties for a couple of weeks. Lesser of two evils is the reasoning there, even though I don't necessarily agree they've picked the lesser evil. Does that make sense? [quote name='Rich' timestamp='1327313037' post='1509022'] On the contrary, I think it would be very helpful. As has been said, there's a choir that wants to sing and musicians that want to play and the only thing buggering it up is this monumental knob. You know, the guy with no face and a cock shaped dent in his head. The fact that he gets his hair off when those [i]above[/i] him make decisions goes to show that his ego is totally out of control. It really starts to sound like he has serious anger-management issues, for one thing. Getting shot of him would be the best thing they could do. [/quote] Hmmm... you've made me reconsider to some extent. Unfortunately there are NO musicians in the choir that want to play - we've left for various reasons, and those that have joined just the band (rather than the choir) for one-off gigs have only done one-offs because they don't see eye to eye with the band leader. That said, I think I may send a tentative email on the down low to the person running it at the moment. I just need to phrase it appropriately, as the reason for sending it is not to gripe but to let them know that even someone they'd count as a reasonable and patient friend of his has bowed out because of his temper tantrums, and that I genuinely think it's his ego trip that's preventing them from flourishing as a choir.

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1327309960' post='1508968']Does the choir sing to the songs being played by the "band" then? (if I missed it)[/quote] The choir sing along just to the piano during rehearsals, played by said tool, when he can be arsed to turn up. He thinks the world revolves around him. As I've said above, anytime they've tried to get someone in to cover for those weeks when he just doesn't bother turning up or throws a paddy, he just throws another wobbly and threatens to leave, and the organisers think the sensible thing to do is pander to his whims. I think I'd tell him to remove his head from his arse and maybe his head won't be quite so full of excrement. [quote name='throwoff' timestamp='1327311163' post='1508989']Contact said tool. Say you want to come back, you were wrong and so on and so forth. Also say you have found an incredible Keyboard player, guitarist, percussionist and 3 piece brass section who would fit in and are ready to go. Invite members of BC to fulfil those roles and turn up to practice. ...... what happens next is up to you [/quote] So tempting... but I prefer having no criminal record. [quote name='KevB' timestamp='1327311504' post='1508994']He sounds like a guy I was involved with a few years ago who was trying to get a band together after not gigging for about 12 years. [/quote] Given we're both in Nottingham it could be the same guy!

Lol it wouldn't have made for such an interesting thread otherwise. "I got asked to play in a band by an out-of-work sound engineer - I said no" "Good on you mate" "Yea, I would've done the same" "I would've cock-slapped any sound engineer that comes within breathing distance of me" Guys, it isn't a church choir, it's a 'turn up and sing' affair run by individuals and is not part of nor endorsed (nor discouraged!) by any church in the area. It's a 'white people doing sister act' type group *shudder* The clapping out of time alone is enough to make you want to self harm

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1327269254' post='1508731'] Just in case I've picked this up wrong. This is a Christian "love thy neighbour" Gospel type band is it not. Does your Christian belief not tell you to be tolerant and forgive. Does it not tell you to love thy neighbour. Does it not teach patience and resolve. Mines doesn't and I would tell him to sod off and get a life. [/quote] [quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1327269254' post='1508731'] He should have given you direction as to which songs to learn first. Agree rehearsals in advance however i agree with not arranging a gig until the band is ready to go and had at least a few rehearsals to iron out any mistooks. [/quote] It is a non-professional community choir that performs music falling under the genre of gospel music. It is not exclusive to christians at all, anyone is welcome and many who attend are not, but it strikes me (being a Christian) that it's hard to ignore the lyrical content. As such, it is meant to be fun and encouraging, with a focus on getting better but not necessarily being a pro choir - hence the intended 'community focus'. When he originally asked me to perform he asked me to learn the songs for [i][u]A[/u][/i] concert, i.e. singular. He wanted me to learn them verbatim, no creative input allowed. That, to me, is the equivalent of a chart gig - it SHOULD be scheduled in advance, with concrete rehearsals in place to meet that deadline = not a band. Now, he seems to think it's to be a long term solution, i.e. a band, not a one off gig. However he wants it HIS way, not a co-operative effort, therefore this 'clarification' on his part is also = not a band. Whatever it is, I want no part of it. [quote name='Jayben' timestamp='1327269542' post='1508738'] That dude sounds like the last thing anybody needs within a 100 mile radius.. Well done you for getting shot of the situation [/quote] Thanks... sadly I'm not sure I'm truly shot of the situation. Previous experience of dealing with problem people close to your social circles means it tends to rear its head again in a few months time. I've been tactful so far (i.e. as close to confrontational as you can get but backing off just enough so that the other person would be in the wrong if they were to be incensed by it - I'm good with words ) but I will tell him exactly what I think of him if he wants to make a go of it.

Been thinking about it and I probably won't email the person in charge... even though they are a friend too it wouldn't be helpful for anyone, and would be perceived as more childish than trying to fix things. I'll ask my wife to pass on what's happened as the person currently in charge is more liable to tear him a new one than pander to his mood swings

[quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1327261787' post='1508571'] 1- Somebody needs to speak to someone higher up the food chain. 2- I assume if this is linked to the church... 3- If he did get the heave ho is there someone else to fill his shoes or would the whole thing collapse anyway? [/quote] 1- Yup! Tempted to drop an email to the person in charge at the moment 2- Good thought but no, it's a community choir. started up with good intentions and is limping on. 3- Long story short the organisers wanted to look after him, and he's ended up throwing paddies whenever they get someone else in to do music... so they stopped doing that... and he throws a wobbly if they even suggest trying to do anything other than what he wants to do... so they stopped doing that too. *sigh*

Don't forget the black eyes, prosthetic legs and artificial liver.

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1327259452' post='1508508'] D'you think the third person will want to stay on now that you've legged it? [/quote] The 3rd guy is yet [i]another[/i] drummer... who IS a session player by all accounts, but I'm suspect that this is the case, as he doesn't live in the city but further out, AND doesn't own a car... so not quite sure how a reputable session drummer can get by in such circumstances. Given this new drummer has not really had to deal with the band leader for as long as I have or even knows him socially, I say he walks far before the band ever gets going. ... which is a massive shame because this band leader is refusing to let the choir gig (yea, I know, the people who run the choir need to grow a pair and tell him to pull himself together) til he has a band that he is happy with... so it's my wife and her friends who suffer.

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1327258549' post='1508482'] Four people? Good grief - I had a picture in my head of about 8 people hearing the complaints he's been making. [/quote] Oh I should've explained, he's been through about 4 or 5 drummers in the time I've known him. Each one has been of varying ability, but all dedicated, some of them extremely reputable session guys and teachers in the Midlands area... but oddly enough none of them are 'ever good enough' or are 'so unreliable'. One of them was the nicest guy I've ever played with despite being so gifted at his instrument, and he got a week to put together a 25 song set list with a million false endings and syncopated parts that existed only in the band leaders mind, and he nailed about 90-95% of it at the gig, but all you could see at the gig during the choir bopping and swaying with big smiles on their faces was the band leaders face occasionally being lit up with raging 'effin' at everything that wasn't quite right. Afterwards? just effin and blinding about how no-one was pulling their weight etc etc. This drummer took time out of his working week to learn these songs for no money, just to expand his repertoire, and got abuse for his time. I should've really learned from that experience to leave this guy well alone!

What a great read this has been! Why can't more musicians (or people in general!) be willing to have a good laugh and not sweat the petty stuff like you guys?

Cheers for the laughs folks, I certainly feel a lot better knowing I didn't jump the gun.

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1327242891' post='1508201'] All you need is, to hear about the $50 fine for playing a bum note & you have a perfect James Brown tribute act. [/quote] at least with James Brown there is (would have been, rather) a level of improv and not so much about the notes and more about hitting the pocket hard. This guy wanted syncopated drum fills and unison lines at a moment's notice, when he himself couldn't clearly explain it to you. Well, I've made my stance clear, and I won't be accepting any invites to play with him in the future unless I get an apology *safe to say THAT won't happen* OR I get to call some shots... or I get paid by the hour according to my actual job's charge out rate. That would DEFINITELY satisfy me

According to him? 4 until i dropped out... officially? him and his girlfriend. I just want to ask him 'have you ever thought that MAYBE the reason you can't find any musicians to play with you is that no-one WANTS to play with you?'

[quote name='smurfitt' timestamp='1327237981' post='1508079']Shouldn't you have read his emails thoroughly and taken in the information?[/quote] Absolutely, and I did, and there were holes in the information - massively gaping holes that I would get blamed for by this egomaniac. Not only that but the info was drip fed, unclear, and seemed to change with every message. I work at a law firm - the core skill is attention to detail and knowing when info is missing or incorrect and working out what should be said/shouldn't be said. This guy would have got labelled as a 'bad client' very early on from the start if it was work! Johnston, yup, I hear you. I have asked the same question (i.e. 'why hasn't someone cock-slapped him sooner' but wrapped up in something slightly more palatable). But that isn't a story for this thread and certainly not for the forum