mcgraham

I've not bought Tony's albums but I did listen to the various clips - they didn't sway me enough for me to warrant buying either of his albums. I absolutely love his contribution to the Hiromi band though.

[quote]There's no doubting their Jedi like skills and fretboard w*nkery, but where's the heart man?[/quote] I find some of Janek's and Matt's arrangement emotive, whilst I would not say I find many of your listed bassists to be emotive. More energetic - yes, serving the song better - yes, fitting a more commercially viable and mainstream genre - yes, but I wouldn't say Janek/Matt/Hadrien had any less/more heart than some that you mentioned. Faithless, the little I've heard of Oli did nothing for me. Not that it was bad! It just didn't do much for me so I didn't listen any further.

Speaking of singing, does anyone else think that some of the abovementioned guys might do well to write some lyrics and get a singer in? I know Janek does some songwriting performances with Oli Rockberger (his keys player), Marcus has collaborated with a few singers, and Matt G has utilised a jazz singer singing just notes rather than singing words... I was just wondering if any of you felt the music might benefit from some lyrics tying it together a bit more.

You can also do this in quicktime. Go to AV controls

Marcus is a bit of a player's player with a lot of bassists.

I'm not saying I agree with 4000, merely that I can appreciate if you don't MM's approach overall, then you won't like a lot of his back catalog. Personally I think the guy is a monster of groove, and love all of his funky groove-laden numbers... but I will confess that I find every one of them (that I've heard) to sound the same/extremely similar... I like them! but I can appreciate that if you don't like his approach then there's a lot not to like.

4000, whilst I do like MM, I can certainly appreciate that if you don't dig his approach to groove then you won't click with most of his stuff. I think his technique is distinctly better and more advanced than the average bassist, but there are more chop-monster guys out there. Fortunately, I don't find that he lets his prowess dictate his music too much. Pete, I watched that whole clinic when it was still online and found it very enjoyable. I like that Janek brings a fresh approachable stance to jazz in his arrangements. It's not overcomplicated to listen to, you (and your non-jazz-wise friends) can just sit back and appreciate the music for its aesthetic, you can listen to the solos with an analytical hat on, whatever. I wouldn't necessarily class it as jazz in the strictest sense, but for lack of a better word, and not knowing where the border of jazz ends and other genres begin, I'll call it jazz

I will join you in saying that some of his stuff does nothing for me. I also find that, despite the 'variety' in his different pieces, his overarching/overriding signature style makes them all sound very similar, or at least all his slower ballads sound tediously similar, all his funky groove pieces sound tediously similar etc. Although saying that, there is one particular phrase that MM used right at the end of his solo in 'Bruce Lee' that, to me, is as if he is making the bass 'scream', which I haven't heard anyone else do.

Indeed! I know this isn't a Marcus Miller thread, but for the sake of discussion I have to say I find a lot of his bass solos really propel the groove of a song along in a way that the abovementioned players don't quite manage (at least to the same extent). I find his pieces/arrangements a little lack lustre overall, but once he's got a solid groove going he keeps it up. I'd say Victor Wooten also does reasonably well in this regard.

Thanks Bilbo, that was very much what I was driving at.

I think you may be misunderstanding what I am trying to say. I am not disputing that one can express themselves on any instrument, (given practice, talent, etc). Janek, Hadrien, Matt all expertly express themselves on their chosen instrument. I totally support and subscribe to the bass's validity as a full and complete instrument in this regard. What I [i]am [/i]trying to convey, however, is that [i]because [/i]of their/our instrument of choice and the [i]way [/i] in which they each choose to express themselves, they can very easily neglect the naturally strong function of their instrument in a group context. As such, I feel that their pieces sometimes suffer as a result. For example, Hadrien's frequent/constant excursions into the upper register with very unusual out there note choices and very little phrase/motif/bassline repetition is, to me, quite disruptive to a lot of his pieces and his performances with other people. Matt G often plays the melody of the heads in the guitar register on the higher strings without anyone else filling the low end. While the melody done on bass sounds good (I think!), I find the piece as a whole itself sounds fairly hollow in the lower register, as if there were no bass player. Janek, on the other hand, tends to keep the bass's sonic territory well filled and in the pocket even when 'expressing' himself. All IMO of course. Does that make sense?

[quote]i would disagree with that. the bass 'part' has a function, but the instrument itself is like any other, and can solo like any other IMO. having said that, i think the ensemble arrangement when the bass is soloing is more difficult to get right, and one of the bands that really gets that right would be Hiromi/Hiromis Sonicbloom.[/quote] I certainly share the viewpoint that bass is an instrument like any other, but I would argue that each instrument has different merits that ultimately translate into things the instrument naturally does well and things the instrument doesn't naturally do well. I believe that the merits of the bass guitar give it huge power and responsibility over the groove in a band, to the point that no other instrument can replicate what the bass does in a standard band line-up (without specifically arranging a band lineup to have more than one 'bass instrument', and that introduces other difficulties). Drums and bass underpin the whole band. Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of not imposing limitations on any instrument, but I am simply trying to recognise the enormous role that the bass (and drums) play in a band, and why this has the flipside effect of making it harder to solo well on bass when in a band context without detracting from the piece as a whole. Regarding the Hiromi trio, Hiromi can hold down the bass function whilst Tony is soloing, but someone else has to step into that role. In most bands, that doesn't happen or isn't even possible. Does that make sense? [quote]on that note i would say that Tony Grey is a worthy addition to this thread, technically brilliant and a very musical bassist got his solo album a week or so ago and its excellent[/quote] +1

I agree! I think the question of 'does it sound good?' more or less sums it up. However, what sounds good and what sounds/looks cool may be quite different, and what sounds good in isolation/one context may sound poor in another. Also, what about 'what sounds better?'

[quote]I went through a big time solo bass type thing about 12 months ago, Marcus, Janek, Victor etc etc, and while I still like that stuff, I find I much prefer now to hear the bass as part of a band groove rather than what I'd call showing off widdley diddley stuff, but there's a place for us all, whatever we're into.[/quote] I guess that's an inherent difficulty with trying to use bass as a solo instrument. Ultimately, bass is more than just an instrument - it's a [i]function[/i]. More than that, it's a function that is so integral to the overall feel, groove and pulse of a piece/arrangement that as soon as a player starts to try and do something else (e.g. solo, play chordally/harmonically, play something with a different non-complementary rhythm), that function can very quickly start to suffer and (ergo) the piece suffers. Bass soloing AND maintaining a strong groove can be done but is difficult. I think Janek is a good example of someone with great restraint who concentrates on the groove of his pieces/playing, and maintains that groove even whilst soloing, hence why his pieces are so listenable by both jazz fans and non-jazz fans alike as he doesn't try too hard to be at the forefront all the time. Nevertheless, I personally feel that the overall groove and energy of a lot of his pieces takes a nosedive once he starts to solo - not because his solos are bad! but because the 'bass chair' is empty (figuratively speaking). All IMO of course

[quote]wont go into arguing over the net - pretty pointless.[/quote] +1. Let's get back to discussing these guys.

dr1, love the video, really grooveworthy, but I think faithless is being quite fair. He didn't try to give advice, just pointed out what the thread was about. I read faithless' post as just voicing a friendly concern so as to try and avoid this thread ending up as another heated debate between members who like discussing avantgarde playing/players, and members who think bass is all about the groove (which I wholeheartedly agree with!). On the topic of this thread, I used to love listening to Janek, Hadrien and Matt G, but have gone off their music in the last 6-12 months: Janek - I think JG is the most skilled 'bass player' of the three, as he lays down pretty immense grooves and is ubermelodic when soloing, whilst never losing the groove. His band also 'serve the song' rather than being utterly self indulgent - they are all very restrained despite their abilities. However, I find his arrangements a bit bland... in particular, I find the horn arrangements and the way they are played just seem to lack any real oomph. Hadrien - I think HF pitches MG at the post as the strongest technician of the three, and very 'out there' with his note choices (which I like and admire). I find his technique and theoretical prowess inspiring. However, I find his pieces and arrangements incohesive, as if every musician is more focused on his/her own instrument and not the overall sound of the group. Matt - I think MG is the real all rounder of the three, with amazing technical ability, theoretical knowledge, and musical-mindedness. I prefer his arrangements over the other two, but find he is a bit too busy a bit too often, and provides little 'bass' fundamental to his pieces, which suffer as a result. Whilst his music is compositionally stronger (IMO) than the other two, I find the production and final recorded mix is relatively weak (especially compared to Janek's). Also, MG's newer stuff just doesn't quite do it for me stylistically anymore.

Fantastic That story put a big smile on my face. I love hearing about people finding 'their instrument' and how they just click with it. Congratulations!

Well done man! Congratulations! Can't wait to try it out

Mate, that is a truly excellent article. Well written and great ideas! I haven't watched the video (am at work) but will do when I get home. Re: other exercises - I recall reading an article by Michael Manring where he discussed using a loop pedal to record and playback a single note on the 1, with silence for the rest of the beats, and then try to play the same note for the same duration at exactly the same time as the recorded note. He also tried to achieve the same tone as the looped note. He said that once in a blue moon he'd manage to play it exactly the same but 180' out of phase so that the note he played cancelled out the looped note such that there was no perceived sound.

+1 for IEM. My setup isn't wireless (yet!) but it's really made a difference to how much I enjoy playing at gigs. A good way to get used to playing with IEMs is to practice through them at home to get used to the general feeling.

Sweet

Well, I think the spalted looks great! It'll still be a great bass regardless

Well, took my pedalboard along to practice and ran whammy-->boost-->dist (gain full on, tone full off)-->vibe... ohhhh my goodness that is a fun combination! Going between the octave up and octave down harmony setting on the whammy can give some positively HUMONGOUS sounds...

That's exactly what I was thinking Great minds... and fools... and all that jazz