Skol303

Just cleaning up some bookmarks here and I found this... (probably old news to some of you and of no interest to others!). But in case anyone here [i]is[/i] interested; make yourself a cuppa, grab a biscuit and have a gander at this excellent 20-minute documentary about "the world's most important 6-second drum loop": that being the infamous "Amen break", lifted from the track "Amen, Brother" as performed by the 1960s funk and soul outfit, The Winstons. You might hate it, but I guarantee you'll recognise it [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SaFTm2bcac"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SaFTm2bcac[/url]

^ Wow, that really puts it in context! Again, superb job mate. I'd have put money on the tracks being 100% studio-made, so you deserve a huge pat on the back from the band here... or an almighty hangover! Not sure if you work in music for a living, but it's even more impressive if not. I'm certainly no "pro", just been messing around at home for a number of years, and I'd be very, very happy with what you've produced here. It's certainly far better than my own efforts with live audio (but that might not be saying much!). Like I said, good work. Hope they buy you mucho beer (or whatever poison) for your trouble, you've earned it.

[quote name='51m0n' post='1229537' date='May 13 2011, 12:41 AM']Staggeringly powerful tools compared to what I started on in 1990, never ceases to amaze me how far audio has come in such a short time.[/quote] ^ Amen to that! I have software on my phone that is better than what was around back then... In fact, I'm going through a kind of 'back to basics' phase at the moment. Mainly due to necessity - my desktop machine and other gadgetry is currently boxed away - so I'm fiddling around making tracks with my iPhone and mixing them in Reaper. It's actually turning out to be great fun and I'm weirdly enjoying the limitations of it. Makes a nice change from being spoilt for choice! I might post something on Basschat once I'm done with it...

Nice work, like it! Really well mixed and they're great tracks too, I'll certainly keep an ear out for the band. Very quirky, tight playing and like I said, well put together by yourself. I'm currently tinkering with mixing using Reaper on a laptop (got the builders in so my desktop Mac is under wraps...) and it's great piece of software: best bang your buck of any DAW, most likely. Only, very minor thing I could suggest is maybe tweaking the phaser/flanger effect a little bit. It's quite a prominent feature of both tracks - not necessarily a bad thing, just something I'd maybe play with. Keep us posted if you develop them any further; though I'd personally be very happy with both tracks as they stand :-)

Very nice Bilbo. I was curious to hear what your playing would be like, given the words of wisdom you dish out on here, and yeah it's pretty much what I expected, to be honest - bloomin' great! This is certainly the sort of jazz I can enjoy; I can see why it brought a smile to your face Superb recording too; sounds like I'm in the room. Great job all round, sir.

[quote name='purpleblob' post='1227573' date='May 11 2011, 02:16 PM']Yes, this is a far better way of putting it. EDIT: Oh best colour, obviously purple [/quote] Nah... you and 4000 are just prejudiced. It's definitely orange!

[quote name='51m0n' post='1227530' date='May 11 2011, 01:52 PM']A friend of mine writes AI derived code to design sounds from scratch - clever stuff, and some amazing sounds he gets too, incredibly organic, just amazing.[/quote] Sounds like the kind of geekery my friends get up to...! (I mean that with the greatest respect). Very much inspired by the likes of Aphex Twin; the DIY approach. I tried it myself once - started playing with Pure Data and I literally couldn't get past the initial interface. Then a friend told me I had to create my own interface in order to start using it... at which point I gave up! ;-) All credit to people who do this, however. I'd love to have that level of technical know-how, but I'm resigned to being a knob-twiddler (at least I think that's what people call me; my hearing ain't too great).

[quote name='paul_5' post='1227433' date='May 11 2011, 12:55 PM']I've nothing against Reason as a piece of software, just the way people scratch the surface with it and assume that they are now a 'producer' because they've 'written' a 4 bar loop.[/quote] Yeah, no sweat, I wasn't getting all defensive, just joking... Reason definitely has a reputation for making it a bit too easy for people to churn out repetitive drivel. I'm always having arguments with a few mates of mine who use hardcore stuff like Pure Data to make their own sounds from scratch! From one extreme to the other...

[quote name='purpleblob' post='1227436' date='May 11 2011, 12:56 PM']"... ultimately it's down to your personal taste whether you like the sound of a bass solo... I've certainly not said I want to listen to bass solo's every song but I'd say the exact same thing hearing sax solo's on every song (i.e. I don't wanna here it)."[/quote] ^ I'm with purpleblob on this. It's surely a matter of personal preference; there is no definite "right or wrong" here. A well-composed, well-played bass solo is surely a good thing; a badly played, inappropriate bass solo surely sucks. Everything in between is personal preference, like arguing over whose favourite colour is best (mine's orange, by the way, and yes it is the best). As blob said, I personally hate sax solos, and they crop up in certain genres all the time. There's no point in me bawling about it, I just choose not to listen to them. Saying that the bass is not suitable for soloing just seems to be limiting the instrument unnecessarily, in my opinion. I've heard plenty of bass solos that have blown me away, or made me think: "WTF... is that REALLY a bass making that sound??", but then maybe my ears are simply less familiar with the genre and more easily impressed (or less jaded??). It might also be because I'm coming at this from a more studio-based, electronic perspective (drum'n'bass/dubstep/electronica/hip hop), when this debate seems to be circling around more traditional rock, jazz, etc. So yeah, my comments might be out of context, but heh. Orange is still the best colour... ;-)

[quote name='paul_5' post='1227343' date='May 11 2011, 11:46 AM']Spot on. We have a saying at work "Reason doth not a producer make". It takes more than phat beats innit? Shizzle (etc...).[/quote] Oi! I use Reason... you get me? And my beats are so fat they need liposuction in order to fit down the speaker wire to my Turbo Woofers. You get me?? ;-)

True indeed... you get me? You get me though?? ;-)

I don't play in a band... but I do collaborate with other people online in making music. So a different approach for me; but in that regard I'd say what's important is: - Shared enthusiasm and a drive to "get the job done" - i.e. being punctual, keeping to an agreed schedule, etc. - Shared vision - i.e. genuinely wanting to create the same thing, rather than trying to compromise your own vision to make it fit with someone else's, or vice-versa. - Knowing each other's creative boundaries - i.e. being aware of who's best at doing what and avoiding treading on each other's toes. - Having a sense of humour!! Seriously.

[quote name='Doddy' post='1226123' date='May 10 2011, 01:16 PM']But,it wasn't that long ago when this wasn't the case,and even now the assumption of the guitar solo is predominantly in a rock context.[/quote] ^ Very true. I guess the point I was trying to make is that most 'mainstream' audiences might not expect a solo to be played on a bass. Reminds me of when a friend of mine once comment along the lines of: "So you play bass? Seems like an odd choice of instrument to practice at home... I mean, what exactly do you do, just play along accompanying records and stuff?" ;-) I think for a lot of non-musicians, the bass is [i]just[/i] the instrument that plods along with the drums. So the occasional solo - well executed, of course - can help to challenge this stereotype. [quote name='silddx' post='1226037' date='May 10 2011, 12:01 PM']Soloing with a bass is like painting with mud.[/quote] ^ Nice analogy... but then Chris Ofili won the Turner Prize for art by painting with elephant poop, so I don't know where that leaves us?! PS: quick edit as I forgot to mention that in certain genres - I'm thinking drum 'n' bass here - the role of the bass as a lead instrument is key. Certain tunes in my library are literally just a drummer and a bassist playing together... admittedly this might be dull as dishwater to some listeners, but clearly not for others otherwise the genre would have been dead in the water years ago. Check out artists like 'Squarepusher' for a taste of what I'm rambling about...

Generally I think all instrumental solos are about showing off to some degree, aren't they? I mean, they're designed to provide a kind of 'interlude' or break in the music and ideally capture the attention of the audience. And flatter the ego of the player, of course. I guess bass solos are no different, the question being is the bass an appropriate instrument to solo with? I'd say yes... no less so than the cello, for instance, and as mentioned stuff like Bach's suites translate quite well to bass. In fact I'd say any instrument deserves its place in the spotlight, if the player so chooses (within reason... I guess it might be a struggle with a pair of marakas, but I'm happy to be proved wrong!). That said, I do agree that perhaps some bass solos are unnecessary; or perhaps a lot of bass solos are unnecessary!? From an audience perspective, I think most people assume that solos are performed on a guitar, so a well-composed, well-played bass solo can sometimes catch people unawares and open their ears to what the instrument is capable of. It's perhaps not the best example, but for me, hearing Cliff Burton's solo on the first Metallica album completely changed my opinion of the instrument and led me to pick up a bass rather than a guitar... perhaps in the same way that Jaco's solo playing inspired other bassists to do the same. So yeah, I'd say that solos certainly have their place in the bass playing world. I mean, once you get past the 'chops' with any instrument there's arguably very little there... but that all depends on the musician, not the instrument itself.

^ Thanks for the useful chart, Gonzo, and again to the rest of you for the advice here - much appreciated. I spent some time working on chords over the weekend and it's starting to make much better sense to me now... I've actually been making my own chord chart, which is perhaps a more satisfying endeavour than it sounds! ;-) I might upload it in due course, in case it helps other beginners like me in future.

Speaking as someone at the other end of the spectrum to most folk here... that is, a beginner!... I can happily say that I haven't had any real difficulties playing fretless. I 'de-fretted' an old bass myself, so admittedly mine does still have fretlines on it, which certainly help me personally - but I could see myself getting used to a plain fretboard with a little practice. Sound-wise I love it. For me, it's a step closer to an upright (the Holy Grail of the bass sound, in my opinion). That said, I'd probably use a fretted bass if I was playing rock, and I'd probably steer clear of flatwounds too. But for hip hop, drum 'n' bass, soul and anything broadly under the jazz umbrella, it's always the fretless for me. Even though it only cost me £30 and a few bits and bobs from B&Q! :-)

[quote name='derrenleepoole' post='1221237' date='May 5 2011, 04:36 PM']The mighty Phronesis with Jasper Høiby on bass! [/quote] ^ Holy **** that blew me away! Truly amazing playing. ...I've just bought Green Delay as an impulse-buy on iTunes thanks to your link. Seems I owe you a debt of gratitude for switching me on to something new; and in monetary terms you owe me roughly 2 1/2 pints of beer ;-)

As a teenager, I learned all of Metallica's first three albums (Kill 'Em All, Ride the Lightning, Master of Puppets) and would spend afternoons fanatically playing through all of them in turn, over and over, until my fingers were raw... I still believe I owe much of my finger stamina to those many hours spent trying to keep pace with Cliff Burton! Good, noisy times :-)

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='1222119' date='May 6 2011, 12:06 PM']One easy way to get a more effective doubling effect is to put a very short delay on one side, and if you can modulate the delay ever so slightly, the subtle variations in pitch can thicken it up even more...Hard right and hard left might be a bit much, though. Experiment with more subtle panning variations.[/quote] ^ Yup, good advice that. Re. the drums, at this stage you're probably best trying to make the composition sound more 'human' by tweaking or even re-programming the drum arrangement, rather than relying on an automated feature within Garage Band to give it a less rigid feel. It's also a great way to learn more about arranging drums in general, which is a very useful skill to have. I can't say I've cracked it yet myself (!), but for a long time I didn't pay too much attention to my arrangements... now I devote a lot of time to this and I'm finding that it has a big impact on my music. So I guess those drummers do have a use after all... ;-) Like I said, try copying the drum patterns from songs you like. "Plagiarism is the greatest form of flattery", and all that. Anyway, good luck and fun with it. PS: one of the best automated ways of giving drums a human feel can be found in Propellerhead's Reason/Record software (the "ReGroove Mixer"). You can download free demos of the software, but it won't let you open your projects once they've been saved (unless you splash some cash on the commercial copies). Still, might be worth a look and you could even record something simple and export it for use in your track, given an afternoon or so...

^ Sincere thanks to you all for the very useful advice kindly given. You've just clarified a number of further questions that I had brewing since my initial post, so again, greatly appreciated. ...a weekend of getting to grips with chords awaits! :-)

I'm just plodding my way through some music theory, getting to grips with notation and the like... (so far, surprisingly fun!). Anyway, I've just stumbled upon playing bass chords, and from what I've gleaned online it appears to be a case of playing: the root note, the octave of the root note and the 10th note in the scale. At least, it sounds like I'm playing a chord when I do this! Is it really that simple, or am I missing a huge something here?? Thanks in advance for any tips.

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1220883' date='May 5 2011, 12:09 PM']The Chain - Fletwood Mac[/quote] Yep, another +1 from me on The Chain. That and 'Another One Bites The Dust'... can't say I was ever really a fan of Fleetwood Mac or Queen, but those two basslines are so iconic they just seemed like a natural place to start at the time.

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1220652' date='May 5 2011, 09:32 AM']Jazz' main failing, in terms of audience, is its immediacy or lack of. Takes a little time to get past first base. But that applies to most stuff that is not on the mainstream radio/tv channels... ...Its not great because its hard, its great because its beautiful. But making something that beautiful is hard."[/quote] ^ Good points well put. I suggested myself that jazz is "music for musicians", but on reflection I suppose the same could be said of many other forms of music that aren't in the mainstream ear. For example: turntablist DJs in hip hop; the "intelligent" drum 'n' bass genre; technical death metal; opera and classical, etc. All of these music forms require a different skillset to that of their more mainstream counterparts. In most cases the skills involved are more difficult and do take longer to master. And perhaps for these reasons, many of these genres also suffer from the same "chin-stroking" stereotype as jazz... Jazz certainly isn't mainstream and neither is it immediately accessible to most listeners or even musicians themselves. But that doesn't make it elitist by default. I think what's fueling the fire of this argument is: on one side, people saying "you jazz guys think you're so great, but try filling my dancefloor on a Saturday night!" vs people on the other side saying "well you're on the wrong dancefloor, pal, but while we're at it I believe my chops are in fact better than yours!" Both sides are perhaps correct to some degree: jazz really isn't the music of choice for mainstream audiences; and jazz really does require a certain level of technical proficiency to play it well - arguably more so than rock/pop. So in short: both sides of this debate could be accused of elitism to some extent, as both sides are arguing in favour of their genre on the grounds of it being 'better' than the other (albeit for different reasons). The net result? Country & Western beats all! I win :-)

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1220121' date='May 4 2011, 06:28 PM']You don't have to be a musician to love Jazz. You just have to want to like it. And hip hop in Jazz is cool if it comes off. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfnR0v0AxDY&feature=related"]Kenny Garrett - Happy People[/url][/quote] Nice vid; like it. ... though when I mentioned hip hop and jazz in the same breath, I was thinking more along the lines of people such as Guru and Digable Planets. Probably a bit dated now - and perhaps not strictly jazz? - but here are a few examples: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eh16a7n_44"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eh16a7n_44[/url] [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nLknje5E9E&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nLknje5E9E...feature=related[/url] [headphones recommended, otherwise you'll miss the low bassline! ;-) ]

[quote name='PeteinKent' post='1219393' date='May 4 2011, 12:42 AM']Aware that I am going to be accused of gross generalisation it is still my experience that jazzers....... A. Want to be elitist but are resentful if not jealous of the popular acclaim enjoyed by rock/pop musicians and .... B. Are more concerned with impressing each other than with entertaining an audience.[/quote] ... must say that I'm not a huge fan of 'traditional' jazz, although I'm starting to get my head around it and enjoy it. But I certainly am a huge fan of the jazz influence in others genres such as hip hop, so to some extent this all depends on what you define as being "jazz"! ;-) [purists no doubt cursing me right now for mentioning hip hop in the same breath...]. That said, I do think traditional jazz is a "musician's music" to some degree. For example: I was going along to a local jazz gig recently and I invited a mate of mine who replied along the lines of "nah, no offence, but you have to be a musician to like jazz". Not a general rule, of course, but I think there's an element of truth in that - as there is with all 'technical' disciplines. If you don't have a keen eye or ear to notice the subtleties, then perhaps some of it gets lost in translation and the net result is - dare I say - a bit boring for some listeners.