thebrig

Just got home from our rehearsal tonight, and after many mistakes on songs we have played a number of times before, and even more on some the newer ones, I said to the guys that we are wasting a lot of rehearsal time going over and over songs where we should at least know the structures, and they couldn't see where I'm coming from. So I explained to them that we agreed to learn from the same versions which are in a band folder on Dropbox, and I said that I don't expect them to play their parts note for note, but at least learn the structures correctly, but the singer said that even though he listens to the songs and sings along to them with no problems, he said that he forgets them when we get to rehearsals, (he also forgets them when we are playing live unfortunately). Our set was agreed in December and I learn't all 33 songs within a month, I know them all to a level where I would be happy to play them live, I'm not the brightest person around, and I'm a steady but average bass player, but I know them well because I have put some effort into learning them, they are probably better on their instruments than I am on mine, but I just think that they are happy to plod along and accept mediocracy, so I think I will make a decision after the next rehearsal, they know how I feel, and if they haven't made a conscious effort to work out a way of learning the songs properly and remembering them, then I think I will call it a day. So again, my question is, [b]Am I wrong to in wanting to learn the set/songs properly? [/b]

It's the failure to go away and learn the basic structure of the song that frustrates me the most, if there is say, an 8 bar intro followed by verse/chorus, verse/chorus, then a solo, then verse/chorus, outro, why is that so hard to get right? I'm not looking for everyone to play their parts exactly as the original, I just want them to get the structure right, the original recording is the basis of the whole band getting all the parts in the right places, even if it was an original song we wrote ourselves, we would still have a structure that we all agree to work from.

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1492245063' post='3278886'] I like where your head's at and I wish you the best and success. You deserve it. Blue [/quote]Thanks Blue, it's not an easy decision as I've known two of the guys for some time now, and they are all nice guys, but I realise now that I need to move on otherwise I am just going to get so frustrated with the way things are going.

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1492211522' post='3278776'] Get some gigs for the band. Yeah, just like that, get some gigs, it's real easy. You just call a venue and say you have a band and they'll just book you right on the spot. I think there's a lot more to it than; "Get some gigs" Blue [/quote]I have always been the one who gets the gigs even though I'm quite new to the area, and every other week after rehearsals I say to all the guys, "can you please try and get gigs in your area's as you know them better than me", of course they all say "ok", but I can honestly say that they never do, because when I repeat the request a couple of weeks later, they usually reply "oh yeah, I'll try", not "I've tried but without success". I'm now about to put an advert out for a ready made band that needs a bass player, I will stay with these guys for a while, but I'm not going to be taken for granted anymore, if they can get the songs gig ready and get out and get some gigs then great, but I don't think it will happen unfortunately.

I really appreciate all your replies and thoughts everyone, although it does seem that some of you may have got the impression that we play every song note for note, and that we are are trying to replicate the song [u]exactly[/u] and maybe that is my fault as I did say in my OP "[color=#282828][font=Helvetica][i]we are a band that plays the songs as per the original[/i]", I didn't mean that we cover every single instrument in the song, ie, if there is piano in the song and we haven't got one, then [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=Helvetica]obviously we can't replicate the piano[/font][/color][color=#282828][font=Helvetica], maybe I should have said "[i]we try to play the songs as close to the originals as possible[/i]", [/font][/color] [color=#282828][font=Helvetica]So i[/font][/color]f I can just clarify, we are a band that's plays the local circuit which is mostly pubs, and we all agreed that we will learn the songs form the original recordings so that when we rehearse we should all be playing the same parts in the same places, but this isn't happening, because when we run through a song, someone might go into a verse when it should be a chorus, or the singer comes back in too soon before the solo has finished etc, etc... Of course we all make mistakes, but because this is happening regularly, it indicates to me that they are not putting the same amount of work in as I am, I'm not the best musician in the band by any means, but I am the one who knows my part, as I have already said, they sometimes get annoyed when I insist we get it right in rehearsals, but when it comes to playing live, they are quite happy to rely on me to prompt them throughout the gig because they know that I learn't them correctly. Some have said that even if you all learn your parts exactly, it still doesn't mean the song will sound ok because it depends on people's individual style of playing etc, and I tend to agree, but surely by having something to work from in the first instance, ie, the original recording, it must help as a guide to playing the song as a band.

[quote name='phil.c60' timestamp='1492102842' post='3278013'] All of the above. I learn songs pretty thoroughly before rehearsals so that I've got the structure nailed down, even if I can't get all the frilly bits. The others do the same working from an agreed version or youtube clip. If we then decide to change things, ie add a harp solo or extend a guitar solo, at least we're all starting fro the same point otherwise it's just chaos and a lot of wasted time. As for ends - if a song ends with a fade we're never going to do that, so we sort that part out after the first run through the main parts. We record the rehearsals, I edit them and send mp3s so that we've all got the final version with the structure and end we want for the next rehearsal or gig. Works well for us. Drummer does sometimes make notes and bring them, but I just learn it. Saves me needing a music stand at a gig. [/quote]Perfect, that's exactly what I'm after, I record every session so that I know how we have arranged a song, just so that next week when we run through it again, everything will be fine, but....

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1492085119' post='3277807'] Are the songs tight at gigs? If there's no reason to practice then practicing for the sake of practicing will lead to this kind of thing. No one really concentrates as they know the songs. If the songs aren't right at gigs then you only need to call a practice to work on the songs that are crashing and dissect them and fix where they are failing. I'm a bit confused, is the band a start up or has it been gigging for years? . [/quote]It's a new band in as much as myself, the guitarist and singer played together in two previous bands, but we decided to take a new direction, so we brought in a new drummer and 2nd guitarist, we now play a lot of new songs, but there are a number of songs we had played in the previous bands, which the singer in particular is always messing up, and it is mainly because he doesn't refresh them from time to time at home, and he also made lots of errors in the past when doing them live for the same reason. You might think, why don't you find a new singer, but good singers are hard to find, and he really is good when he is at the top of his game, but he is very inconsistent due to his lack of effort.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1492083908' post='3277784'] That's slightly different to the impression you have in your OP. People make mistakes, when you learn a song to a recording you have a lot of imperceptible guides to pick up on that are always there. The singer on the recording may have some inflection in the vocal or the drummer might play a certain fill in a slightly different way. When you practice as a band, those indications are not here. It always takes a few run throughs to learn what bits are missing or added in. That's the nature of the beast. Relax a bit more. Mistakes are normal. If they're blaming you for derailing a song, or you're blaming someone else for derailing a song; that s a really bad place to be in a band situation. Laugh it off. Pick it up from where you went wrong. If the same mistakes happen time after time, then listen to the original and see why you're messing up. It's unusual to be just because someone has made a mistake. [/quote]I hear what you are saying Tim, and ordinarily would agree with what you are saying about laughing it off, and it's something I used to do, but after nearly two years of playing with guys who are good musicians but are still making the same mistakes, or forgetting how a song goes on numbers they have played loads of times live and in rehearsals, then surely you can understand my frustration of going along to a rehearsal to go over these songs yet again, and sometimes even having to play the song on someones phone to remind them how they go. I am an easy going guy, and certainly don't want to fall out with people, but if I do something, I want to do it properly and to the best of my ability.

[quote name='NoRhino' timestamp='1492082824' post='3277768'] I rehearsed in a band for weeks on end run by an ego maniac. Bass and drum parts needed to be exactly as per the original. When I asked why it was ok for him to improvise a solo he swore at me. Make sure you're not like that. [/quote]Trust me, as I said in my OP, I am an average but very steady bass player, I do learn the parts more or less note for note, but I don't insist that the others do, all I'm asking is that they learn the song structures correctly so that we all play the same parts in the right places, if they want to improvise a bit, no problem, as long as the overall structure of the song is correct. As a band, we did ALL agree to this way of learning and doing things, so when it doesn't happen, I get frustrated.

[quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1492079566' post='3277719'] IMHO you get good at what you practice. If you've agreed that the chosen versions are what you're aiming for, then 95% of the work should be done before you pay for a room. I've been in exactly this situation more than a few times and know others that currently are and nothing good comes of it unless the mindset changes. Every gig I play I expect the whole band to aim for perfection. I know that won't happen, but that is where what we're aiming at. If you set your sights at 70% to start off with, you know what you'll end up with. [/quote]Totally agree with you, if we are putting on a show where we are being paid, then I feel we should all strive to get the the songs 100% correct, of course there are going to be a few cock-ups, that's inevitable, but aim for 100%, and if you achieve 90/95% then great.

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]D'Addario EXLs for me too, I've used them for years and I have them on all of my basses. [/font][/color]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1492078216' post='3277701'] I suspect it may be you then if it 'happens in nearly every band' you're in. The problem with learning songs 'exactly as per the original' is that music just doesn't work that way. Many original artists don't even play the songs as per the original recording when they play live. I suspect what most of your fellow musicians (and certainly what we do) are learning the form and key riffs and parts on their own and then seeing what has to be adjusted within the arrangement to make the song work as close to the original as you find acceptable. If you start being over critical on individual parts, even if you slavishly learn your part note for note from the record, it just won't work. The other problem with learning songs note for note is the amount of time and dedication needed to do that when you turn up to the next rehearsal and find the song doesn't fit the band, you've wasted a lot of time and the band members will then get bogged down, and waste even more time, forcing it to work because they don't want to see all that wasted time lost. Learn the structure and key parts, relax and have fun. Just don't cut out mid sections because 'they're too hard' [/quote]We've all agreed to use the originals as a guide to the structures of the song, each individual part doesn't necessarily have to be note for note, but sometimes someone goes into the chorus where they shouldn't, or the singer comes in over the second part of the solo, or the drummer finishes the song far too early and makes you look daft because you've just gone into the next note. Surely you have to have some sort of structured way of workig if you are going to put on a tight and professional show.

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1492077166' post='3277684'] An army marches to the speed of it`s slowest recruit - in your case that`s the rest of the band. You`ll inevitably have more professional/dedicated members in bands, in your case it`s you. Every band/sporting team/political party needs it`s steering member/driving force, you`re already that with regards to the rehearsing, getting them gigging may be the kick up the backside they need to actually pull together. Book a few gigs and put the pressure on, I reckon you`ll get where you need to be. [/quote]Booking gigs? that's the other thing that frustrates me Lozz, with the three members I've played with over the past couple of years, it's always been left to me to get the gigs, even though every week I ask the other members to put some footwork in as well, and of course, they always say they will, but never do, and to really rub salt into the wound, one of them moaned that all the gigs seem to be in and around my area!

[font=Helvetica]As the title says, am I wrong in wanting to learn the set/songs properly?[/font] [font=Helvetica]Nearly every band that I’ve been in, we decide on a setlist, or we agree to learn three or four new songs for the following week and I go away and learn them properly, but everyone else just brushes over the surface of the songs, and I end up having to tell them they are playing them wrong, which I hate doing because it obviously annoys them.[/font] [font=Helvetica]My current band is not a band that’s puts our own take on songs, we are a band that plays the songs as per the original, because being a covers band, we feel the punters prefer them that way.[/font] [font=Helvetica]I download the originals and put them in a Dropbox folder so everyone can work from the same versions, but when we get to the rehearsal room, they are all over the place with them, they seem happy to settle for mediocracy, and just say, “it’ll be alright on the night” which I hate, because I think it’s just laziness on their part, especially as they are all very good musicians.[/font] [font=Helvetica]I am an average but very steady bass player, I work hard on the songs, I make sure I know the structures perfectly, I've played with three of them for a couple of years in other bands, and although it annoys them when I pull them up in rehearsals, they are perfectly happy to rely on me to guide them through the songs when we are playing live.[/font] [font=Helvetica]To put you in the picture, my current band started in December, we decided on a setlist of thirty songs, and by the end of January I had lean’t them all, and can honestly say that I am ready to gig them, but we are now in April and collectively, we only have about fifteen that are ready, and I’m getting more and more frustrated having to pay for rehearsals just to go over the same old songs week in, week out, just because the others aren’t bothering to put in the work.[/font] [font=Helvetica]Is it me, am I too demanding, am I being unreasonable to expect them to want to get their fingers out and learn the songs so we can get out there gigging?[/font] [font=Helvetica]Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy rehearsing, but surely rehearsals are for piecing the songs together, and I’m now at the point of making a big decision on whether I stay and probably carry on rehearsing songs I already know well for another six months or so, or do I look for a ready made band in need of a bass player who already know their set?[/font] [font=Helvetica]BTW, these guys are all really nice people, but I’m just so frustrated with the attitude. [/font]

Just the news I did NOT want to hear as I have just received a pair today. I went for the cheaper aluminium ones, but having looked at them, I can't help thinking how two little pieces of metal can cost £25.

I've got a few precisions and they all sound different solo'd, and although I can hear a difference in each of them onstage when playing live, I very much doubt whether the difference is noticeable out front. Here are a few I still have.

[quote name='thepurpleblob' timestamp='1490910801' post='3269078'] I don't need a motorbike. My other hobby is driving trains for a heritage railway. 266 Litre diesel engine this weekend [/quote]Have you ever been down to my town Bridgnorth? the Severn Valley Railway is fantastic, mostly steam but does have a few diesels, and my local is The Railwayman's Arms which is on the platform of Bridgnorth station and is quite unique as it has never closed since it first opened in 1861.

I only started playing seriously nine year's ago at the age of 56, and I have been playing regularly a couple of times a month ever since, and because of back and neck problems, that is more than enough for me. Forming bands or recruiting new musicians has usually been down to me, and I have always been very careful to make sure that any new recruits fully understand that we only want to gig a couple of times a month, it might take a bit of time, but there are people like you who are more than happy with just a couple of gigs a month, so stick with it, I'm sure you will find or create a band with like-minded musicians eventually.

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1490865310' post='3268567'] My definition of a rehearsal is that everyone arrives knowing their parts and you put all the pieces together in a band context. Things might have to be changed and honed, but working out the chords, inversions and arrangements should have already been done. You don't need to do any of that at full volume. [/quote]Totally agree, well said sir!!!

This is not a criticism of anyone by any means, it's just an observation, but I'm quite surprised by some of the comments so far, and the "[i]trust[/i]" thing has been mentioned a few times. I would hate to think that my wife comes to my gigs because she doesn't trust me, maybe I'm old fashioned, but for me, a good relationship is built on trust, if I had any doubts about our loyalty to each other, then I would find it hard to enjoy our relationship, and please don't think I'm being naive, of course some people do stray even after many years together, and if it ever happened to me, then I would have to deal with it, but in the meantime, we enjoy our life together (40 years) mainly because we trust each other. At one gig a few years ago, a very nice looking lady came up behind me when I was playing and she put her arms around me and rubbed her very ample breasts all over my back for the duration of the song, and instead of being angry or jealous, my wife thought it was hilarious and took pics of it, and we still have a laugh about it now. The other surprise to me is, "[i]why would my partner want to see me at work[/i]", for me, I just love playing, especially live, so I don't see it as being work. I don't really want to start up the old "[i]is it alright to play for nothing debate[/i]", but if people didn't want to pay us anymore, I would still do it, because I would rather play for nothing than not at all. If it was my only source of income, I think I would still enjoy it, and consider myself fortunate that I earn an income from doing something I love. I would say that the majority of top sportsmen enjoy what they are doing, and would probably still compete, even it they didn't get paid for what they do. I know many ex-pro footballers who play Sunday mornings and pay subs towards the running of the teams because they just love playing, and I also know, and I'm sure many of you do as well, a number of ex-named muso's who play the pub circuit for beer money just because they get a buzz out of playing live.

[quote name='Telebass' timestamp='1490613130' post='3266371'] I'll outline a scenario from recently to make it absolutely clear. We were at a lip-reading class, and the question was asked as to how we had lost our hearing. When it came to me, I said loud music because...etc. The lady next to my wife turned to her at once and asked if she went along to every gig, then was negatively surprised to be told 'no'. My wife suggested that it would be fairly odd if I went to her work every time she went... Get the drift? Why do random members of the public think like this? [/quote]Because going to watch someone in an everyday job [u]would[/u] be unusual, but surely what we do when gigging falls into the entertainment category, which is why it might appeal to some partners to come and watch us play, so why would it be considered strange that our partners might get some enjoyment in seeing us play? BTW, I don't consider playing in a band a job, for me, it's a hobby which I enjoy, and any money earned is a bonus, it's no different to when I used to play football, she would come and watch me play.

My wife comes to 95% of my gigs, and when I'm not gigging, we usually go to one of the live music pubs in town to see a band, so she does like seeing live bands anyway. She doesn't just sit there when we arrive or finish, she always helps everyone with taking the gear in and out, and she has a pretty good ear when it comes to sound checks. As a band, we like to have our wags come to the gigs, it's a social thing for them, it helps fill out the venues, extra money being spent on drinks which all helps getting repeat bookings. And she also thinks that bass players are the coolest sounding member of bands.