fretmeister

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503327133' post='3357271'] The point I'm making is that prior to 2015 and the last few days it doesn't seem to have been a issue whatsoever to fly it. In the few articles I've read on the last few hours it seems only to have been a real issue (for the majority of people) in the US since 2015. The fact people in the Uk now know about it, I would suggest, is because it's been seen on mainstream media at Charlottesville. And there was an article in the Sun newspaper three days ago. Certainly I'd say the reason I know nothing about it is because I've been totally ignoring most of that story (and don't read The Sun) I wonder how many people replying on this thread knew about the connotations previous to this week, or before 2015? [/quote] You didn't. I did. Clearly from some of the other people who recommended books and the like, they did too.

Charlotteville, USA. Last week The news isn't limited to our own countries anymore. It's global. These are the images that are flying across the world - via news sources and social media. This is what the majority will see. It's a very easy question for anyone wanting to use that flag - do you want to be associated with these images? The association and the assumption of support will be made irrespective of intent.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503324373' post='3357236'] To some people. [/quote] To the inventors of it. To those who displayed it while fighting for the right to keep slaves. To those who display it now, in 2017, while wearing White Power type t-shirts and carrying banners with similar slogans. By all means think of it as a cool bit of design (it is), but don't for a minute believe that it is anything other than a symbol of racism, and even if there are other meanings, the racist element overshadows every neutral or positive slant you might think (without you reading any actual books on the subject) you can apply to it. The fact that many British people, or even European people might not recognise it is as vile as other examples in history does not mean it isn't. It just means more education is needed.

I'm west Northants. Greetings!

[quote name='Jus Lukin' timestamp='1503321922' post='3357193'] I've heard of people getting addicted to surgery, but that's just silly! [/quote] The post surgery swelling is impressive. Ahem.

[quote name='Grantd' timestamp='1503310582' post='3357022'] I believe it should be ready at the end of this month. [/quote] Lovely! I have a Consat Custom and it's amazingly well built. Gerald and his team really know what they are doing.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503323250' post='3357209'] Why was it bought to the police's attention? Who complained? And Why? The article is very scant on details of the neighbours relationship leading up to the event. [/quote] Ah I didn't realise that something isn't a crime unless someone complains, and that there should be a reason for reporting crime, other than it being a crime. you should write a book on jurisprudence.

I've just noticed this in Les's sig "[color=#00FF00][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I play in a cover band for money, so anything I post about bands is coming from the viewpoint of a cover band that plays for money."[/font][/color] Seems like he is risking that income. I hate to say this - but I'm going to anyway. Doing something silly is not a problem. Using a symbol of something when the impact / meaning of that symbol is not fully understood is not a problem. We all make mistakes and we all need educating about all manner of things. Continuing to use such a symbol after being educated as to the true meaning is a problem. Whether the person using it supports the true meaning of the symbol or not is irrelevant. People will assume it, because they know the user of the symbol is now fully aware. I drew swastikas on my maths book at school. (I was not aware of the Hindu use at the time) I thought it was an interesting design. I stopped when my Grandfather (and WW2 soldier) informed me what it meant.

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1503321822' post='3357188'] Just before the quicksand reaches my neck I'm going to have one last attempt at context and try to save my sorry ass. There's a member on here who saw us in all our regalia a good while back and was very complimentary in his review on another site, wish I could remember his board name. Hobby horse waiting patiently in his noose. Hobby horse relishing his time in the spotlight. [/quote] So you're an Adam and the Ants tribute with hats?

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503321508' post='3357180'] Relax. It's just a flag. They're not holding a rally and making hate speeches. What a load of nonsense. [/quote] Nonsense? Like this, that was only dropped because plod couldn't prove who put it in the window? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-15429369

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503321388' post='3357178'] No. In the US upto about a year ago it was just seen by the majority of Americans as a symbol of southern American pride. It's only in the last few weeks it's become more than that by a larger proportion. The war wasn't about Slavery as such but the right to keep their lives the same, which included keeping slaves. Looks like an awful lot of big, long established American institutions are now hurriedly removing the flag from their premises, ensignia and regalia and distancing themselves from it. That's very sad. [/quote] You'e just said you know nothing about the subject and now you preach about it? It started when the first anti-slavery President was elected. Not anti-potnoodle, or anti-sheep farming or anything else. The slaves had to be freed by force. I will bet you a shiny pound you would change your opinion after you've read a book or 2 on the subject.

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1503321075' post='3357172'] To be honest I din't really expect anyone to support our use of the flag or condemn us, I posted cos' I really wanted to see if I was thinking along the right lines of dropping the flag by asking my peers or I was just having a knee jerk reaction and fixing a problem that may not have existed. We don't explain context at all, have never needed to, in fact the only time I've needed to mention it is on here. Take your points entirely though and thank you. [/quote] Drop the flags and use that as a way to educate then. If you are playing University places and the like, taking a public stand gets you a lot more fans.

[b] [size=4][color="#000000"]No doubt it would be difficult to prove INTENT on your behalf - but do you want the hassle of defending this sort of thing? Do you want that in the local press? Mud like that sticks forever [/color]The flag is one thing - the nooses would probably tip a jury over the edge.[/size][/b] [b] [color=#EA6C26][size=1]I[/size][/color]Incitement to Racial Hatred - Part III Public Order Act 1986[/b] [color=#333333][size=3] For an offence to be committed under any of these sections of the Public Order Act 1986, there has to be one of the acts described therein: it has to be "threatening, abusive or insulting", and it has to be intended to or likely in all the circumstances to stir up racial hatred.[/size][/color][color=#333333][size=3] The words "threatening, abusive or insulting" are to be given their ordinary meaning and case law dealing with other provisions of the Public Order Act 1986 can assist with this.[/size][/color][color=#333333][size=3] Racial hatred is defined in section 17 of the Act. The prosecution must prove that hatred was intended to be stirred up or that it was likely to be stirred up. "Likely" does not mean that racial hatred was simply possible. We therefore have to examine the context of any behaviour very carefully, in particular the likely audience, as this will be highly relevant.[/size][/color][color=#333333][size=3] Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights [ECHR] allows freedom of expression save in certain limited circumstances. These circumstances include the offences contained within Part III of the Public Order Act 1986 (ss18-23).[/size][/color][color=#333333][size=3] Additionally, Article 17 of the Convention states: "Nothing in this Convention may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein or at their limitation to a greater extent than is provided for in the Convention." Relevant case law includes [i]Glimmerveen and Hagenbeek v Netherlands[/i] 18 DR [1987] and [i]Kuhnen v Germany[/i] 56 DR [1988].[/size][/color][color=#333333][size=3] In deciding upon the public interest of charging these offences it is essential that prosecutors keep in mind that in a free, democratic and tolerant society people are able to robustly exchange views, even when these may cause offence. However, the rights of the individual to freedom of expression must be balanced against the duty of the state to act proportionately in the interests of public safety, to prevent disorder and crime, and to protect the rights of others.[/size][/color][color=#333333][size=3] All such allegations are by their very nature highly sensitive. For that reason, and to ensure a consistent approach, any allegation under this legislation, must be referred by the relevant CPS Area to the Special Crime & Counter Terrorism Division (SCCTD). Referral means the submission of a report by the Area to enable SCCTD and the Area to have an informed discussion about where the responsibility for the case should lie.[/size][/color][color=#333333][size=3] When an Area becomes aware of such a case, it should be referred to SCCTD within seven days. If it is decided that the case should be prosecuted as an offence of incitement to racial hatred, SCCTD will take over the conduct of the case from the Area. If SCCTD considers that it is clearly a case where incitement to racial hatred does not apply, the case should be returned to the Area within seven days of that decision being made.[/size][/color][color=#333333][size=3] If SCCTD decides to deal with a case, the file is held there and dealt with there. Thereafter, cases can only proceed with the consent of the Attorney General.[/size][/color]

Another thought You may not be racist in the slightest. You will attract those who are. They will assume you are too. They will then assume the venue is cool with that. That in turn emboldens the racists.

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1503319107' post='3357137'] I've had my terminally offended cyber flounce brigade" chucked back at me a couple of times please don't think I'm referring to anyone on here who has an opinion, I'm not, I'm talking about the point scoring look at me I'm offended cos' I saw an opportunity type's, we all know them. I knew from the start I would get generally intelligent well thought out and knowledgeable answers on here. There has to be some context in this, we decorate ourselves and we decorate the stage, we even have hobby horses that the girls like to nick and ride about the dance floor with. We actually hang them from the speakers with nooses ( I just know I'm going to regret passing that snippet on ). People have commented when they walk in and look at the stage/windowsill/postage stamp area that it looks good and looks like something's about to happen. We don't by any stretch of the imagination look like any sort of rally/political/fascist/KKK meeting, we look like a band that's made an effort. As I stated before we have NEVER had an adverse comment or raised eyebrow about any of it. We do know what the flags about and I'm trying to gauge if our punters see it for anything other than decoration And I do thank you all for your contribution to this. [/quote] Nooses? I am looking forward to hearing your "context" for the symbol of lynching.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1503319789' post='3357147'] I have absolutely no interest in American history and until I read this thread I had no idea that the flag had anything to do with white supremacists. It's just one of the old pre-independence US flags. I really can't believe anyone in the UK would believe you were white supremacists. Is there even such a thing in the UK? [/quote] National Front Combat 18 Blood and Honour All UK white supremacy groups. There are more.

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1503319107' post='3357137'] I've had my terminally offended cyber flounce brigade" chucked back at me a couple of times please don't think I'm referring to anyone on here who has an opinion, I'm not, I'm talking about the point scoring look at me I'm offended cos' I saw an opportunity type's, we all know them. I knew from the start I would get generally intelligent well thought out and knowledgeable answers on here. There has to be some context in this, we decorate ourselves and we decorate the stage, we even have hobby horses that the girls like to nick and ride about the dance floor with. We actually hang them from the speakers with nooses ( I just know I'm going to regret passing that snippet on ). People have commented when they walk in and look at the stage/windowsill/postage stamp area that it looks good and looks like something's about to happen. We don't by any stretch of the imagination look like any sort of rally/political/fascist/KKK meeting, we look like a band that's made an effort. As I stated before we have NEVER had an adverse comment or raised eyebrow about any of it. We do know what the flags about and I'm trying to gauge if our punters see it for anything other than decoration And I do thank you all for your contribution to this. [/quote] The only acceptable contexts for a symbol of racism is when it appears in history / academic books or is being condemned. I think you probably hoped the majority would support the continuing use of the flag at your shows. No offence - but that is as naive as using it. Why on earth would you want to be associated with it anymore? Why would you want to have to explain "context" every time? Or more to the point, not have the opportunity to explain context because the venue just won't book you, or a punter won't buy a ticket or T-shirt? There's at least 41 months of Trump left - it's not going to get any better. More people will see the images in the news - that flag being held aloft by guys in white hoods, or wearing stuff like this: (Seen at a rally in the US over the weekend and posted on twitter) You have a product to sell - your band. You could kill your reputation with 1 review that raises the flag a an issue. Here is an example - when for all their marketing expertise Umbro decided to name a trainer "Zyklon" http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2222783.stm People who saw that advert only had 1 or 2 reactions. Either they thought it was monumentally thick, or that Umbro were anti-semitic. Neither is an attractive quality to a customer.

[quote name='fftc' timestamp='1503318927' post='3357130'] That's the point though. The flag hasn't been 'high-jacked' by nasty people. It has always been a nasty flag, as the above link to the 'cornerstone speech' points out. I grew up when Dukes of Hazard were on the TV. I don't remember if there were racist elements in that show, and even if there had been I was too busy getting excited by the cool car jumping over bridges. Yeah, the flag had a bit of cool charm about it. I was naive. A few years later in my late teens and early 20's there were some folk in the rock and metal scene where I lived with confederate patches with slogans like 'The South will rise again' sewn on their denim jackets. If I knew then what I know now I'd have challenged them on that, but I was as naive as I expect they were at the time. [i][u][b]Now when I see that flag I think racist. I expect the only people who want to be viewed as racists are real racists. If you are not one of them then don't fly that flag and don't put a pillow case on your head with eyeholes cut out of it. Both say the same thing to me.[/b][/u][/i] [/quote] I agree totally. And your history with seeing the flag as a kid is the same as mine. And about 15 years ago or so, my next door neighbour had an orange Dodge Charger. He ran out of money before he could put the flag on it (easy to run out when it had IIRC a 6.5 litre V8 with a 3 speed auto box. Did under 10mpg even when driving carefully. As wide as a double decker bus too. Stupid bloody thing). Made a glorious noise though)

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1503317482' post='3357097'] Can you recommend a book on the subject? [/quote] "[color=#101010]In the spring of 1861, decades of simmering tensions between the northern and southern United States over issues including states’ rights versus federal authority, westward expansion and slavery exploded into the American Civil War (1861-65). The election of the anti-slavery Republican Abraham Lincoln as president in 1860 caused seven southern states to secede from the Union to form the Confederate States of America; four more joined them after the first shots of the Civil War were fired. "[/color] http://www.history.com/topics/american-civil-war/american-civil-war-history and the US's own specialist museum on the subject (lots there) https://acwm.org/about-us/our-mission It is a compulsory subject in schools in the USA. There are plenty of books out there.

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1503317403' post='3357096'] I'm not saying that war was not about the above, just that (I should imagine) there is more than meets the eye. [/quote] The same way that there is more to any other oppressive regime flag - of course. IIRC Opera was far better funded under Mussolini. But that doesn't reduce the impact of the vile stuff in the slightest.

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1503317247' post='3357092'] Most were actually erected in the early 20 century, the 20s and 30s. The days of the Jim Crow laws and terrible oppression, they are a sign of that. [/quote] So about a hundred years then! (I still can't cope with people born in the 1990s being allowed to drive!)

Just a thought though.. I don't know where you are, but if you are in a strong UKIP area you might get more punters by keeping the flags. You could then take advantage and really rip them off on the ticket prices. Would serve them right.

It's not a modern purpose - it's the original purpose, after it has been sanitised by recent pop culture. Put it another way - if there was a modern band playing traditional Cambodian music, would I attend if they flew the Khmer Rouge flag? Nope.

And as for any comments about destroying history.. You don't keep statues of dictators. You don't keep flying flags of their regimes. That would be celebrating them. But of course you keep the knowledge of what they did, and they take their place in history records - destroying history would only occur if their existence was removed from non-celebratory texts.