cheddatom

the mixer alien linked has input gain controls - it looks good for what you need!

In a live situation I don't think anything is going to substitute a big bass amp behind you rumbling your sack (unless you know for sure the venue has amazing on stage monitoring). That could be driven by a modelling pre-amp though. I think where the modelling really shows it's quality is when recorded. I'd be interested to try Kiwi's test but I don't have speakers at work.

Well, yeh, that's what I was wondering really. "Is it just that the power amp is sh*t? " well apparently yes. So cheap power amp solutions? And putting the two sets of speakers together would I think give me 4Ohms each side, so i'd want one that goes down to 4 Ohms..? Ta for all the help guys

I was considering that, but I have the parametric on the desk and it has a 7 band on the main output which i've been using. Do you think a big 31 band (thought they were 32?!) would make a big difference? I could put that on the line from the desk to the PA. Perhaps the best solution would be to buy a fairly decent powered mixer with inserts for recording the vocals, but then I might still need the EQ.

I don't have leads long enough to have the speakers facing back towards the singers at the moment, although that would help a bit I suppose. Well, level is the major issue, and the only thing in the way of that (AFAIK) is feedback. Perhaps though I have some of my gain set wrong which is creating distortion which could make the whole system more susceptable (SP?!?) to feedback. I've attached a pic to try and explain the set up.

That's really cool. Get on with it!

I didn't think it had a hold function? That would do for tap tempo I think

For the last couple of years we've had a crappy Kustom 100W PA. It came as a deal, two crap 10" speakers, a crappy power amp and a free mic. We always struggled to get much level out of it, and it's always been a bit distorted and muffled. We have it turned up as much as possible before feedback kicks in. Recently i've set up to record every practise, which means the mics now go to a mixer, and a line out from that goes into the PA. The mixer has a better EQ on it, and by cutting some frequencies I got a little more level out of the PA before it started to feedback. More recently I bought a couple of Peavey PA speakers which are 12" and have tweeters. These sound a lot clearer, and it seems I could get more level out of them than the other speakers, but I can't turn it up because the point of feedback seems to remain at the same point. Also now that it sounds clearer it seems i'm getting some distortion from somewhere. On the back of the PA it has two outputs for speakers that both say 8 Ohm. Both my good (peavey) and sh*t (kustom) speakers are 8Ohm, so, without re-wiring them, I think I can only run one set at a time? At the moment I have the two speakers in between the two singers, at right angles to their mics, angled back to basically point at their ears. Any tips?

[quote name='umph' post='862208' date='Jun 9 2010, 03:31 PM']I was more on about the modelling, overdriving a digital unit does sound horrific though.[/quote] So you'd say that digital modelling of distortion is horrible sounding? I'm quite interested in what you say about the top end. I tend to roll everything off above say 6KHz anyway (that's live and recorded) so i'm not sure if i'd know what the "air" is you're talking about. I'd love to try out some tube amps, but that's because I want to stand in front of a massively loud rig and play. For recording though (I think) i'd mic it up, compress it a bit, EQ it a bit, then realise I could have got just as good a sound useing modelling.

Heh, oh noooo, quick someone reply!! It's a very nice board

I think it's that Umph was implying that "digital clipping" reffered to what digital modellers do as opposed to "analogue clipping" which is just not the case. Digital Modellers model analogue clipping. They only create digital clipping when an idiot overdrives them.

[quote name='Doddy' post='862037' date='Jun 9 2010, 01:15 PM']I never said it was easy. On your first gigs in a new town,you will invariably play to virtually no one. But,if you do a good job you will get re-booked,and each time you will attract more people than the previous gig. It may take you a while,or it may happen quickly,but it will happen if you are a good band. I know it's do-able,because I've done it myself. I've argued with promoters who have complained that we haven't bought a crowd/sold tickets,but they have still rebooked us after the gig.[/quote] Fair enough, the tone of your post implied it was easy to me, but obviously I got that wrong!

[quote name='umph' post='861982' date='Jun 9 2010, 12:18 PM']listen to the harmonic content especially around 1k. digital clipping is extremely harsh on the ears[/quote] Digital clipping is a totally different thing to digitally modelled distortion. Digital clipping occurs from overdriving a digital unit, which is generally a bad idea. (unless i'm wrong, I know you know your amps etc). EDIT: It's like, you wouldn't wnat to clip the input on a digital recorder, it'll just sound horrible and seriously hurt your ears. Compare that to a tape recorder, which might sound nice if you over drive the input. This doesn't mean that you can't digitally model the effects of the tape recorder using your digital set-up.

With some models, they don't necessarily nail the sound they're going for, but this doesn't mean that they sound crap in comparison, and it deffinitely doesn't mean they sound "digital".

[quote name='Colledge' post='861902' date='Jun 9 2010, 11:03 AM']some i agree with. i've knows people use line 6 guitar amps which sound awful and digital is the perfect wort to explain the sound...[/quote] I disagree! "awful" is the perfect word to explain the sound, and generally it's down to the way the player has his settings.

[quote name='silddx' post='861893' date='Jun 9 2010, 10:57 AM']It's more or less your first point I wanted to discuss, but I've never had any real problems live either. But you're right in that it's down to the PA / monitor situation. I just think there's a lot of negative nonsense spoken about digital modelling.[/quote] Yeh. There's one member in particular (maybe they'll come along later) who claims they can tell if an Ampeg is being used by listening from outside the venue, and would be able to tell it was a "real" ampeg or if it was a modeller - the mind boggles.

[quote name='OldGit' post='861883' date='Jun 9 2010, 10:48 AM']Yep. "Gimmicks" like telling people when you are on (by whatever means) and getting other people to tell people how good you are (by whatever means) Same ol' gimmicks that have been around since before the Beatles' grand dads were born.... only now it's a lot easier as we have t'internet, twitter , text, etc.[/quote] I think in the context of out-of-town gigs, it's much harder to tell people when you're playing, as you don't have contacts for the people, as they're out of town. Local radios and papers can help, but they are generally much more interested in helping local (IE out-of-town to you) bands. You are right that the internet makes spreading the word easier, but again, you can only communicate with your existing contacts. EDIT: But yeh I totally agree on your main principles, it's just that they're a bit vague, and my point was that pulling a crowd out of town is much more difficult than Doddy made out.

If you're comparing listening to the recorded sound of a rig with the modelled sound of a rig, then I reckon no-one can tell the difference. To try and talk about modelling in the context of live performance is difficult, because obviously you have to amp up the modelled sound, and maybe the PA is crap, or there's no wedges etc. or maybe you're using in-ears which I would imagine are lacking in ball-shaking low end.

[quote name='Doddy' post='861358' date='Jun 8 2010, 07:15 PM']I've done gigs with original bands all over the country and beyond,and have never taken a load of mates with us and have never paid to get on a bill. The gigs are there without you having to supply your own audience, or without putting your hand in your pocket. You're first gig may be quiet,but if you do a good job you will begin to draw more people next time-if you do a good job,there will be a next time despite not drawing a large crowd.[/quote] Hmmmm, i'm not sure what sort of original bands you were playing with, but it's very difficult IME to play in venues where people turn up for bands coming from out of town. We've played loads in manchester, brum and london, and on the whole they've been rather empty. After playing about 10 gigs in Manchester we started to be able to get a bit of a crowd in, but i'm talking like 20 people (who would come specifically for us). If there is a "buzz" about a band, i'm sure they can pull the crowds easily, but for a "buzz" don't you need radio support or an army of geeks posting your band all over the web or some other such gimmick?

I've had a TNT BW combo for ages. The bassist for creepjoint uses it with a behringer 2 x 10 extension, but I used it with a 2 x 12 guitar combo in the crossover output. On it's own it's not exactly "articulate" in the higher mids/highs but yeh, it's really f***ing loud.

After putting graphic and parametric EQs, compressors, multi-band compressors, all kinds of effects etc onto my bass in the studio, it gets kind of boring playing live with only a tone control to play with.

[quote name='51m0n' post='861086' date='Jun 8 2010, 03:23 PM']Why do you need more than 10 minutes for a changeover of gear?? I've been in bands on the original circuit and we could change the entire two bands' gear out (inc drums) and line check within ten minutes. You have to know what you are about, you have to be prepared to do it, you need a decent sound guy. It can certainly be done, 10 minutes is a long time, you do also need somewhere to ferry the other gear to off stage, sinice this is stage one though, you can leave band a to pack down that kit whilst band b is doing their line check. I've never been to a gig where the audiemce went home because the next band took 15 minutes to start....[/quote] Hmmm, yeh, my old band could set up in about 5 minutes flat but i've never seen another band get off stage quicker than 10 minutes, and no, i'm not exaggerrating.

[quote name='D-L-B' post='860862' date='Jun 8 2010, 12:08 PM'](Pro players aside) Gigging is ultimately a pleasure pursuit for most of us out there. So here's a question. I want to go kayaking, I can't afford a kayak, if I could afford one I don't have a car to get it to my nearest kayaking hot-spot. Would it be acceptable for me to turn up at said kayaking hot-spot and simply expect to use the kayak of whichever complete stranger I came across first who happens to have their own kayak and transport? [/quote] No but you could find out who's kayaking in the same place at the same time and ask nicely if you could borrow their's and promise to take care of it.

It's kind of horrible the way every pop song on the radio has a vocal that sounds more like a keyboard. It's what people have come to expect now though. They even seem to do it with technically good singers.