cheddatom

Just bought a Traben 5 string from Mike. I got it for my bassist friend. Mike was happy to accept bank transfer from my friend, even though "yeh i'll just give your bank details to my mate you've never heard of" sounds a bit dodgy!! The bass was really well packed and arrived the same week we paid for it. All wround a thowroughly gwreat bloke.

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='736242' date='Feb 5 2010, 02:56 PM']I guess what I am saying is that, rather than spend all that time and money trying to find 'that' sound, why not learn to love the one you have and save yourself the heartache [/quote] But then you're stuck with the same sound for the rest of your life. You'll be able to hear other cool sexy sounds, but you can't try and get them else your current sound might run away and leave you with a life of regret. Does that ring true for any older, wiser, embittered players?

[quote name='bigjohn' post='736216' date='Feb 5 2010, 02:23 PM']Your position, if I understand thee is that you can modify your tone through effects to such a level that some parts of your chain are inconsequential ie you can't hear the difference.[/quote] I was talking about tonal shaping in general, and the way in which these days, you can get any sound from any number of methods. You don't need an all valve head, to get a sound the same as someone with one. You don't need a precision bass to sound like you're playing one etc. I don't mean to say that there are inconsequential parts in the chain. Everything in the chain has an effect, but lots of different chains, long and short, can create the same outcome. If that much scope is available for changing your tone, then the initial "core tone" of a bass becomes almost irrelevant. I mentioned that I would prefer one of my basses for certain sounds, because it has an active pre-amp. Well, if I wanted I could take the pre-amp out of the bass and put it in a pedal, or buy a similar sounding pre-amp to use with my other bass. I guess there some merit in the "if i'm spending X amount on Y bass with Z rig, I don't want to need any pedals to get MY sound", which is fair enough, but you've probably got a boring tone :-p I think the "everything needs to sound good set flat" mentality is crazy. You buy an amp, and it sounds amazing if you roll off some low end, but no, f*** that, you'd rather keep trading in amps until you find one where you can leave the EQ flat.

swapping the wires round on one end of the jack lead should make it act in the opposite direction, I think!?

[quote name='bigjohn' post='736126' date='Feb 5 2010, 01:14 PM']Ok. So lets suppose you can model a valve, or whatever amp you like down to imperceptible differences that the player, never mind the audience can't hear. And your cabs do the biz. Do you think you should / could put a crap bass (in terms of tone) into the chain at the beginning?[/quote] "crap bass" is subjective. I have a Brice 6 string which cost me around £100. I like the way it plays, and I like the way it sounds thruogh my rig. If I could get a laptop to model exactly what my rig does to give me "perfect modelling", i'd put my £100 bass through it, yeh. Depending on the sort of sound i'm going for, it might be better to use my £500 schecter 6, as that has an active pre-amp, but I wouldn't be fussed if I forgot to bring it.

[quote name='bigjohn' post='735992' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:49 AM']Set right is a bit vague though innit? Set right for what? Valve amps don't just have one particular tone do they? (although my marshall JCM800 was pretty close) A Pod can't replicate a particular valve amp preamp / power amp at all it's EQ/gain settings can it? So therefore it's easy to tell the difference. Especially if you're using it! At best, the settings on models are approximations, which then get further from their original intention the more you EQ them.[/quote] Set right means setting them to the same sound. I suppose i'm not just talking about modelling specifically. Using my pedal board and a PA, I reckon I could approximate almost every sound. No, I couldn't set up an absolute copy of a head including it's EQ. As far as models go, I wouldn't know how advanced the latest ones are, but it's clearly withint the realms of possibility to model exactly the behaviour of a valve (or SS) amp. You stick white noise in one end, monitor the other end, and attach actuators (or whatever they're called) to the amp's knobs. Simple!

[quote name='51m0n' post='735965' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:34 AM']Even half an hour of mucking around invalidates your ability to truly make an AB comparison without switching back to the orignal.[/quote] Yeh, I do agree, and regularly try to "refresh" my ears when mixing. [quote name='bigjohn' post='735966' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:34 AM']I'll agree with you on that.[/quote] Thank god i'm not alone! [quote name='bigjohn' post='735966' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:34 AM']I'm not agreeing with you on the Pod thing. They're not like valve amps at all. Although you can make them sound like a valve amp. It's the same doing an impression of somebody. You might be able to impersonate a certain mannerism or someone's voice in a certain situation. Though that might be useful / amusing. It doesn't mean that you've magically morphed into the person your impersonating does it? I can completely agree that Pods and the like are far more useful and practical than a great big valve amp... but to say that there's no difference? That's a nonsense.[/quote] I didn't say that there's no difference, or that they're the same. I'm saying that set right, the two can sound (to the most discerning human ear) exactly the same. It's obviously possible. Then, if two things sound exactly the same, there is no inferior choice. You do then have to take other things into consideration IE the whole signal chain (as 5imon was saying). Perhaps they sound exactly the same until you feed in a load of fizz with a fuzz pedal, at which point the high frequency response "seems" to change, etc etc.

[quote name='51m0n' post='735942' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:17 AM']But you didnt test the entire end result against the entire "best of breed" chain did you..... Because you have to trade one for another as often as not. So you swap one imerceptible (but measurable) inferiority for its superior original, and over time you introduce perceptibly inferior tone, but YOU cant tell, because it all happened so gradually.[/quote] Well, in the situation I was describing, I did compare with the "best" chain, which means it's technically not the best chain. I take your point though. I wish I was rich enough to worry about whether my modelling sounds as good as an all valve head. I'd love to be rich enough to try different cabs! Fortunately, I can use my pedal board to re-create my sound through my cheap sh*t rig, and through FOH PAs, without worrying about tiny (im)perceptible nuances.

Also, I can't beleive you people rolling with green papers! Yuck! They're so thick, they give me a sore throat and make me cough (more). I always use silver.

[quote name='51m0n' post='735925' date='Feb 5 2010, 11:03 AM']I think what BigJohn is saying is that you may not tell the difference with any one inferior choice. After all the difference from that particular item, although measurable, may be imperceptible. But if you continue with that mindset, replacing many things with inferior items in your signal path, then the total difference will become perceptible, even if the difference at any one stage is imperceptible. As he states, that is the route to a substandard tone.[/quote] Surely you listen and re-asses with every new peice of equipment in the chain? If I have an all valve rig, but then I try a POD and realise I could carry the same tone around much easier, I chose the POD, and it's not an inferior choice. Then I try the phaser on the POD and realise I can get it to sound like the vintage boutique pedal I spent £500, so I chose the POD and it's not an inferior choice. Then I try the squire VMJ and it sounds the same as my £4k super jazz, so I take the squire to gigs..... etc. I just think there's a hell of a lot of b*llocks said about tone, usually by people with more money than sense (or listening ability).

[quote name='bigjohn' post='735319' date='Feb 4 2010, 05:47 PM']Yeah I know, I'm just being pedantic. My original point was it's a mistake to think the tone of an instrument no longer matters because you can dial in tone, when "good tone" (ie the tone you want) is about maximising the quality of the signal from start to finish and taking control of it through whichever means are best. It's not about thinking "Well, I can't tell the difference, swap it out for an inferior substitute", because, that is the road to sh!t tone. [/quote] If you can't tell the difference, then the substitute isn't inferior!

I really like that!

[quote name='bigjohn' post='735233' date='Feb 4 2010, 04:44 PM']However, if you hear a CD through a really good valve Hi-Fi, you can tell the difference immediately.[/quote] A difference, yeh, but which one is more "true"? I know that analog technology has the equivalent of an infinite sample rate and frequency response, but CDs aren't that far off. Perhaps what you're actually hearing is tonal colouration and compression?!

[quote name='bigjohn' post='735183' date='Feb 4 2010, 04:02 PM']But surely it's all about subtle degrees... lot's of em! If you've got such a heavily effected signal that you could get two entirely different players to sound "the same" without asking them to vary their normal technique, then that's not exactly "tone" is it? What you're doing there is effecting the signal so heavily as to make the subtleties that would normally end up making the two players sound completely different (their "tone") so minuscule in comparison that they need not exist.[/quote] The example I gave did involve getting Flea to stop slappping and play with a pick. However, you're right that i'm talking about drastically effected sounds. It seems like we have totally different definitions of the word "tone".

[quote name='Tengu' post='735158' date='Feb 4 2010, 03:48 PM']Plugging in the insert lead effectively breaks the signal chain at that point so you need to wire your cable in such a way as to send the out signal right back to the mixer. You can do that by using a stereo plug on the mixer end and soldering a link between the tip and ring. At the other end you have a mono jack that is connect just to the tip and sleeve. I hope that makes sense.[/quote] That makes perfect sense ta! I can buy an insert loom, then just open the stereo jacks at one end and solder the rings to the tips.

[quote name='bigjohn' post='735155' date='Feb 4 2010, 03:46 PM']It's not entirely though is it. Tone is also generated by playing style. Give Flea James Jameson's bass and rig, and ask him to play Higher Ground. It wouldn't sound like Jameson's tone. And I spent ages getting the right gear so I find it easy to sound like I want to. The other way round is sounding vaguely like I want to sound anyway because of my playing style despite the gear. Not contradictory at all [/quote] OK, not entirely seperate. Slapping, picking, long nails or short, hard or soft attack, finger position. All these things will affect tone, but to a subtle degree, which is why I say if ALL of your tone is in your fingers, you must have a boring tone! That's just my opinion because I prefer a sound that stands out. If you take the band Tool, I bloody love the bass sound on 10,000 days. I think if you got Flea set up with the same sound, made him use a pick and learn the song, it'd sound almost identical. The timing would be a bit different, but the tone would be 99% the same.

[quote name='bigjohn' post='735133' date='Feb 4 2010, 03:24 PM']Bang on for me too. I like my EQ relatively flat. I can then EQ to whatever room I'm in. I've spent ages getting together gear that to my ears, sounds like I want it to without having to EQ it. I don't want an amp "that sounds great if you boost this or that"... I want it to sound great flat. I want a bass that sounds good when it's not even plugged in and I want pickups that help me transfer that tone into my amp. And I wouldn't say my tone is "boring" I agree with what Mythste said earlier though... I seem to be able (or that I am only able) to make most gear sound like I'm playing it.[/quote] It seems you're contradicting yourself a little? You spent ages finding the right gear, but you can get your sound with any old gear! Playing is distinctive, the style of a player, the way they play. Tone is a seperate thing. So, while I might be able to tell that it's you playing through my 10 distortion pedals and bi-amp rig, it'll still sound like my tone.

I know I can buy insert leads, but if they break the signal it will be annoying. I want the send to go to the computer, but I can't really return from the computer 'cos monitoring that many tracks is a bit processor intensive. Also, I need some of the outputs from the PC. So, what i'm wondering is, is there a simple way to send to the return AND the computer from the same stereo jack? I don't mind making my own leads but would prefer to buy something.

"tone is in the fingers" - lol, yeh, if you have a boring tone.

Clearly, the pedals are the most important thing.

I have a mixer, which has insert points on every channel. I want to be able to use them as direct outputs. I tried last night with mono jacks, hoping that would work, but no. So, I have to use stereo leads, which is fine, but will that cut the signal to the main channel then? Someone must make a lead for this situation, any ideas?

I really wanted to try the boss wah on bass. I heard it do some amazing things on guitar. I use a Wah Probe, but I use it in a blender.

I manage to make two very different basses sound similar through the same effects rig, which makes neither sound much like a bass. So yeh, if I were looking for a new bass, tone would not be the first priority.

Thanks, i'll just buy one and hope

I know in principle you don't want to change the ouput of the GB, but if you got it down to match the jazz, you could then adjust your filters to match the new gain level. Then when the jass is plugged in it should be OK. It seems like Silent Fly might make you a totally clean boost anyway...?