cheddatom

I still haven't listened to the clip sorry - I am interested to see how I would make the sound.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='247349' date='Jul 24 2008, 10:30 PM']I'll try dumb down, sorry, I'm very prone to elaborate conjecture Tom so bear with me, I bore myself sometimes . In the world of music there are thousands of examples of successful, trained musicians/composers throughout history. There are a smaller number of people who are successful and great without training. Using the smaller number as a reasoning for not being trained is a poor example and is a weightless argument for not knowing your sh*t IMO.[/quote] I don't think there is any research to support you in saying "In the world of music there are thousands of examples of successful, trained musicians/composers throughout history. There are a smaller number of people who are successful and great without training." ...but if you have a link to some research and/or a reason behind this statement? I'm guessing you're thinking about hundreds of years worth of classical composers for whom the ability to notate is an essential skill. If you think about early blues, or jazz, (i'm guessing) there would be an equal number on both sides.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='247275' date='Jul 24 2008, 09:06 PM']I said it was unhelpful, anomolies are always poor evidence. My examples of lots of well educated composers simply establishes that there is a validity to that route. This does not undermine the validity of other methods. It's just that citing examples does not establish the weight of accepted evidence based argument. In other words, take understanding from what I say, not from what I didn't say. That happens all the time. Just because someone does not state a certain view does not mean they don't hold it. So for the record I think there are some great untrained composers it seems you assumed I thought one camp is better, I don't.[/quote] Some of the wording here is very confusing, if not ambiguous. You are giving examples to give weight to your argument, so why is it "unhelpful" if I give examples for mine? What is "accepted evidence based argument"? You think that there are some great untrained composers - but apparently they're anomalies!? I think we hold the same viewpoint but that I can't understand your elaborate summary. Dumb it down man!

I should make a long post responding to everyone, but I dont really have the time so sorry if I seem blunt! Alex - I misread one of your posts and got the impression that you thought a composer who knew theory would be a better composer than the opposite. I think what you were actually saying is just how theory helps you compose. The Funk - I think you have it spot on. There are as many great composers who know theory as don't, and just as many crap composers. Jake - Sometimes I find an idea questionable, such as the idea that a musician fluent in music theory is a better musician than someone without much knowledge of theory. I think in some circumstances this would be the case - working as a session musician, or "dep" (still not sure what that stands for?) or working with a group of very technical/fluent in music theory people. On the other hand, if we were talking about creating music from "the soul" then music theory is irrelevant - each to his own. Anyway - if I find an idea questionable, I will try and find out the reasons behind it - if there are any. I don't think that I have been ignoring the content in these pages. I think you yourself have missed some of my points. Wasn't it you who said giving examples of "theory-less" composers was pointless, and then in another post used a list of "theory-expert" composers? Sorry if not. I admit I like to debate, and I admit to misinterpreting alex, but I don't think I have ignored any content. My general view on music theory is that it helped me as a guitarist to learn it, and as a consequence helped my musicality in general quite significantly. This was my view before beginning in the debate! Sorry if I pissed you guys off

[quote name='Merton' post='247046' date='Jul 24 2008, 05:08 PM']Even if one didn't know "classical" music theory, when composing he/she would know what sounds a two-frets-up, one-string-up position change would make. In its very basic form, that is utilising their level of music theory to construct a shift of a perfect 5th for their composition.[/quote] Yeh, we've had this point before. I think we're talking about academic study of music theory, rather than what you have gleaned from playing your instrument.

[quote name='alexclaber' post='247036' date='Jul 24 2008, 04:58 PM']My knowledge of music theory has just as often led me to try something that counters established practice as I've gone with the norm. Some great examples of writers doing this are Steely Dan and Frank Zappa, where all the composers have excellent knowledge of theory and use it to go to very strange places. Meanwhile lots of people without no knowledge write mundane three chord rock (no, not Status Quo or ZZ Top, they are masters of the three chords!) Sometimes it just seems like you're arguing for the sake of arguing which is really annoying! This has happened on numerous threads where you seem to do everything in your power to not understand the alternate position. Alex[/quote] I think that your first point is a very fair one. I don't think any of these examples of composers are useful though - we could come up for as many composers learned and un-learned, good and bad. I am not arguing for the sake of arguing. I am debating for the sake of reaching a reasoned conclusion - much like every other debate should be conducted. I hate this "Oh let's agree to disagree". No, if someone has a good question, let's find out the answer. My question is "what advatages do composers with extensive knowledge of music theory have over those with almost no knowledge of music theory?" So far the answers have not convinced me either way i.e at the moment it would seem a composer who is an "expert" would have no advantage over a composer who is an "idiot" when it comes to producing a finished product, other than being able to write it down and tell other people what it should be performed like. It would be easy to say "well I don't have to convince you" but if you read through the thread you'll realise there is no rational justification offered for saying that "a composer with more music theory knowledge is a better composer than one without the knowledge". And if you can't say that, then surely I have a point? 6 string bassist - Certainly, but what are words? A 10 word sentence says a lot more than a 10 note song, and it actually means something practical to someone. A note is not a word, neither is a chord, or a gap in sound. A word says more than any sound can say. Consider this - Modern art can be a tin of paint chucked at a canvas Modern "classical" music can be some violins set up at random, with random bows chucked at the strings Modern literature can not be ;uhrw.mgnpu;jNLmdnf,tjkwrny Q;EFUW;MNQWE;D [OIIDY;EWFN The art of language is entirely different to visual arts or the art of music. Language by it's nature must be organised. Art by it's nature can be ANYTHING!

a "doubler" is basically a chorus.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='247022' date='Jul 24 2008, 04:43 PM']I'm not daft enough to be drawn on 'facts' if you care to explore you will find lots of evidence from linguists making comparisons between music and language[/quote] I don't think it's a daft point, I think I have raised a valid point. Just because lots of people have compared music to language in the past doesn't make it right. Like I said, I have to have knowledge to speak a language, I do not need language to play music, I just need some motor functions (and ears help). [quote name='jakesbass' post='247022' date='Jul 24 2008, 04:43 PM']Then you are not looking hard enough mate, eg there are lots of examples in my last post, it strikes me that your frame of mind (I'm guessing at cheeky mass debator) is possibly obscuring your view of the evidence. It's all in my last post [/quote] All I found relevant to my question re' composing was: "Having the knowledge opens previously unknown possibilities" (please tell me if i've missed something) Which I think is irrelevant. Having an instrument and experimenting with it opens up previously unknown possibilities. Having music theory knowledge opens up previously KNOWN possibilities - by deffinition. Fair point - I like to debate, but that's what we're doing isn't it? Come on, address my points, and i'll address yours! It's fun.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='246987' date='Jul 24 2008, 04:17 PM']Sorry Tom I had missed that direct question. The answer to my mind is simple, A broad knowledge of the entire vocabulary of a language (music is a language) ................................................................ A quick and direct answer is: If you follow the path of received wisdom, you can familiarise yourself with what was previously mysterious to your ear and grow and develop into a skilled musician that has use of received wisdom. WINNER[/quote] "music is a language" - is that fact? Music to me is sounds. To speak a language, I must be familiar with every aspect. The more I learn of a language, the more I can speak. If I say "ugh ugh ugh ugh" it may well be considered language by some pedantic wrotters, but it's not really. However, if I get up on stage, start slapping my thigh to the rythm of my heartbeat, and then say over a microphone "ugh ugh ugh ugh", it constitutes music (no matter how bad), and I didn't need any knowledge of anything. I am in no way denying that there are benefits to knowing music theory (communication between musicians, creating commercial music etc) but I really do not see any benefit to composing that this knowledge can bring. Both examples given by the funk and alex are regarding transitions between chords. Like Alex said before, he can find the right chord by playing lots of different ones in context. I suggested this was a method of trial and error, but Alex thought this method was theory. I really don't understand that point of view. If I have been playing the guitar for a while, but not studying music theory, I will know chord shapes. If I play three chords in a row and think "with another chord this would be an amazing 4 chord sequence" then I can try different shapes in different positions all over the guitar, and find the right one. Now, i'm not suggesting this happens in all cases, but don't you think it would stand to reason that someone with loads of knowledge of music theory would pick the right chord from the few chords their theory knowledge suggests to them - as opposed to trying sh*t loads of random chords. In turn this could lead to a lot of "standardised" music, based on the knowledge of music theory, and we would never heard anything original. Originality is not necessarily something essential, but it's one of my top priorities when writing playing or listening to music.

[quote name='The Funk' post='246984' date='Jul 24 2008, 04:13 PM']Music theory can help lay out to you the way different chords resolve to each other - or build up tension. You can "hear" it for yourself too. And just because someone lays it all out for you, it doesn't mean you can then always immediately "hear" it. But an example of how theory could help you find the right chord quicker is if you are playing a V chord and are wondering which chord to resolve to as the last chord in a sequence (or the first chord of the repeated sequence). Well, Classical theory, Jazz theory and the Blues tell you that you'd get a very strong resolution to the I chord. I don't know what they call it in Classical theory (perfect cadence?) but I do know how it works. That's the most basic example I can think of to answer your question. My understanding of harmony is not that well developed.[/quote] I understand that, and I don't have a problem with it but.... I think this technique could lead to a "lazy" style of writing, where you rely on the tricks of former composers as learned from books/learned friends. If it works for you though...... I have been playing drums and the bassist from the premature ejaculators has been jamming along with me, and he knows f*ck all theory. He barely knows the names of the open string notes, and telling him to "go to the 5th fret" is slower than walking over and sticking my thumb on his fretboard. However, he comes up with some original bass lines that would never have come into my head, and would be considered unorthadox at least in terms of music theory - but it works! It works so well in fact that even when I can hear a great bassline in my head I have to keep it to myself - I don't want to spoil his creative mindset with functions of music theory or musical cliches (however funky they may be!).

I didn't know they had a usb connection for editing. That sounds like a great pedal!

Alex and Jake - I don't disagree with anything you've said in your last two posts, but I think that after so many pages of discussion someone should have at least explained to me how theory can help you write better songs, or how theory could help you "find the right chord" any quicker. I knew a lot of theory at one point, and I think this has helped me get used to where notes on the fretboard are etc - but now I think about it, learning the shapes only gave me a starting point that I could well have developed my ear over time. It took me years of improvising along to anything to get any good at it (i'm still not) and I don't think those years of basically f*cking about on the bass are related to music theory in any way. I realise that theory can be used to describe what i'm doing, and it can be used for communication too. Theory should also be useful for people who need to work out a "standard" bassline to go with a project they have been given, or some similar situation. As far as composing, I can't see how it helps. Alex - I think all kinds of music in my head all day long and I never once think about the names of chords or notes or rythms I am "hearing". Language is for communicating. I think if you're thinking in words to yourself, you may actually be talking to yourself (in a covert way).

[quote name='alexclaber' post='246940' date='Jul 24 2008, 03:16 PM']Read what I write, don't read between the lines. I never said that theory would mean you could immediately identify what chord was required, I said that if you could do that then you wouldn't need theory! The labelling I referred to was so that you yourself would have a vocabulary to describe different sounds to yourself, not for communicating with other musicans. Again, don't read between the lines, read the content, don't make up your own inferences. I am not making any threats, I'm commenting on the bizarre lack of interpersonal skills that are demonstrated on forums and if such interpersonal skills are developed to avoid violence. Alex[/quote] I am reading what you write. "I don't see how you could immediately identify what chord is required if you DID know theory. Are you saying it just speeds things up? In what way?" Read the 2nd half of that sentence, and the come up with an answer to my question if you like. We can discuss the topic - the point of a forum. Why would I want to describe chords to myself? Can't I just play them? In what way would giving a chord the "right" name make my playing any better or easier? I'm not anti-theory, I am just interested in how people think it benifits them to learn standard scales, chords, rythms, and the names for it all. I think your last point is null. You are the one who used profanities because someone disagreed with you. You created conflict in the thread - an argument out of a debate - the perfect example of how interpersonal skills are lacking on internet forums. Nothing against you! You can swear as much as you like for all I care, i'm just joining in the discussion

[quote name='alexclaber' post='246920' date='Jul 24 2008, 02:51 PM']If your ear is perfect and you can always immediately identify what chord is required, complete with all the extensions, then you don't need theory. But then again, if you don't know theory how are you going to label all those chords? I am imperfect and therefore the theory helps - though that doesn't mean I don't write plenty of things without using any theory and sometimes still have absolutely no idea what is going on with the harmonic structure of some songs. Regarding my earlier outburst, as I informed one of our esteemed moderators, I believe that if you wouldn't say it in a face to face discussion then why would you say it on a forum? Maybe it's the lack of risk of a black eye? Sweeping all-encompassing statements are usually full of holes and oversimplified at best, if not plain wrong. Those of us with more knowledge, wisdom, experience, brain, whatever, can see through the bs but there are plenty that can't and thus I will continue to pull people up when they post with their foot in their mouth, blinkers on, or talking out of their... Alex[/quote] I don't see how you could immediately identify what chord is required if you DID know theory. Are you saying it just speeds things up? In what way? I accept your point about labelling, but I don't think this is necessary for everyone. Especially in rock bands where the bassist can look at the guitarist's fretboard and have a good idea of what is going on, and vice versa. I'm not quite sure what your last point is about. It sounds like you might be making violent threats. I know you're probably not talking about me, but for instance, if I HAD insulted you in some way or another, be it in real life or on a forum, I would like to think that I wasn't risking a black eye.

[quote name='alexclaber' post='246839' date='Jul 24 2008, 01:32 PM']If it's reducing the amount of trial and error, which it does, then it is helping. Why is everyone being so f u c king argumentative this week? Overdue a holiday? Well go on then, f u c k off then. Alex[/quote] It's a discussion. Calm down! I am interested to know how your knowing theory helps you reduce the amount of trial and error in the songwriting process, compared to say a guitarist who has never learned a scale, but knows his way around the fretboard by ear.

[quote name='alexclaber' post='246789' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:41 PM']You have completely and utterly misunderstood my statement! Read it again! When I come up with new songs it usually happens when I'm messing around on the bass or classical guitar and something just appears and off we go. Inevitably you get those moments when you're thinking, "I want this to go in that direction, I'm heading for that note over there" and when you don't immediately fall into it you go "hmmm, the fifth, is that it, no that doesn't feel right, how about over here, no that's not it, maybe if I do something weird like hold those notes the same and shift the root to that chord there, ah yes, there it is." Listen to my music, then tell me if I'm not a songwriter. They're songs and I wrote them. Alex[/quote] I think that before, when you said that theory can help songwriting if you don't know where it should go next - it sounded as though you were thinking of classic transitions learned from theory i.e theory dictates that this transition is called this, this transition is called that, and you would think of the one you fancy and pick that one. The way you describe your writing process sounds more like trial and error, just the same as anyone who knows nothing about theory, therefore it doesn't do much to back up your point that knowing theory helps song writing. [quote name='The Funk' post='246798' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:52 PM']Here's an idea. We all use theory all the time. Whether it's 'that note sounded bad last time in that place' or 'I don't want a minor 2nd clash on the 1 by playing F when the rest of the band is playing E', we're all figuring out what things work and don't work to help us figure out what we do want to play and what we don't want to play.[/quote] I think it's a fair point, but it's a point about language. We're all using the word theory, and some of us think this describes absolutely everything about music, and some of us think it describes academic study of music with the aid of text and study guides and the like.

[quote name='BassMunkee' post='246738' date='Jul 24 2008, 11:49 AM']Learning scales is gash, imho. Music should be about playing what you feel, how you feel. If it sounds good then cool, you could waste hours learning how to play a 4th-minor-diatonic-pentateuch, when you could in fact be zapping out a killer riff through a couple of pedals, to a cracking rythm. Which would you rather do?[/quote] Fair enough if that works for you. I think we're talking about being able to improvise, and in that sense if you're not used to all the shapes (scales, modes etc) then you might find it hard as you'll be trying to think of what to play, rather than just playing.

Sorry, I thought we were abreviating B2.1U to B2. If anyone has a B2 I would strongly recommend you upgrade to a B2.1U!

I think you'd be better off using just the DI for points already mentioned. I use a DI and mic live, because I get the soundman to roll the top off the DI and use the mic for all the top end, which is voiced nicely through a guitar amp.

I had guitar lessons for a long time, and learned every scale and mode and chord that my teacher knew. It all bored me so much I forgot almost all of the theory I had learned, but I can still play it. I think if I hadn't learned all that theory, it probably would have taken me longer to get as comfortable with playing as I am. [quote name='silddx' post='246476' date='Jul 23 2008, 10:52 PM']It's a point very well raised. My little bro is a world class, championship winning, pro snooker player, and I don't want to put words in his mouth, but it's one hell of a lot more complex than that. It's natural talent, tenacity, competitive personality, immense amounts of practice, knowing your history, sheer love of what you're doing, and above all, belief in yourself and unwillingness to compromise. I'm afraid I am now too old for all that and cannot practically make that amount of dedication. I would lose too much.[/quote] Yeh, but the point is that there is "theory" (physics calculations) behind every snooker shot. They're very complex calculations, but they would aid your practice, and a lot of snooker players' practice and training is probably based upon the physics of the balls. When they go down to play a shot, they are relying on their skill built up in practice, rather than thinking "If I hit this ball on this spot at this velocity, it will accellerate at this rate and hit this ball at this angle........"

The B2 has an XLR DI output so you can have that going to the desk for your DI, while you're plugged into your amp normally, so if your amp fails it wont matter!

It depends! I would: Get a boss LS-2, put a compressor in one loop, put an overdrive in the other loop, blend them how you like them, take the output to a DI box with a link output for your amp.

A 15" wet halibut has an excellent off-axis slapping response, but once you go further than 45 degrees the impact tends to lessen to a kind of scaley stroke.

[quote name='BassManKev' post='242927' date='Jul 18 2008, 05:42 PM']iv got a thumb pic, but its too small for my thumb! i guess they come in different sizes?? i definatly intend on tryin to master picking...il make it cool [/quote] If you get the large dunlop ones, they feel very tight but will loosen up after 30 mins or so of playing. You might notice a slight lack of circulation in the end of your thumb, but it wont hurt.

[quote name='stevie' post='245993' date='Jul 23 2008, 12:14 PM']And you shall have it, sir. :-)[/quote] Sorry, your brand of highly intelligent ironic humour is lost on me!