cheddatom

I don't see how knowing theory will make you more able to play a teapot, a shirt, or a piglet. I'll give it a watch if I ever find free time though. Speaking of weird instruments - I've been messing with my girlfriend's "thumb piano" recently. The notes don't seem to conform to any normal key (although maybe they should?) but you can still use it to make some fun music. Music theory in this situation would surely be entirely useless, although once you've played it for a bit, I suppose you're developing your own subconscious theory, and if the instrument gets popular then people will start writing about it etc...

Ahh, right, that might be the best way for him to try one then. I'd like to see a pic of yours, I love the shape. If you were local we could have sorted out a try-out. Nevermind!

Is it the same as [url="http://www.firstguitarshop.co.uk/view_product.php?product=OLPTPBAC63"]this?[/url] He won't spend any money until he's tried one anyway, no matter how many times I tell him it'll be fine.

Due to some circumstances out of our control, me and my guitarist could possibly start playing as a duet, with me on drums, and I have suggested him on baritone guitar. He's never played one before, and they're quite hard to find! So: What baritones are there? I swear I saw an Epiphone LP one on Ebay a while ago, and it was really cheap! Where can we find a baritone to actually play in a music shop? (stoke, brum, manchester are our limits) Are the strings on a baritone really thick, like bass strings? Or will it not be much different to heavy guage guitar strings? Ta

the mic on the digital dictaphone wasn't great to be honest. There was a gain control but the quality was always verging on telephone. I guess 'cos it;s designed for voices. Does the Ipod adaptor have a built in mic? Or is it a pre-amp adaptor for the Ipod that you can plug any mic into? That would be good.

What's the longest thread ever? EDIT: How long is a bass chat thread? Does it ever end?

[quote name='jakesbass' post='156738' date='Mar 13 2008, 02:23 PM']glad you realise it's a good natured poke, we have been over some ground in this one some of it a little rocky. [/quote] A good natured poke aye? I'll be round in a bit

In the past I have used a digital dictaphone, and been able to transfer the files into cubase (but there are free DAWs out there) to mess with and/or record over. I think you should go for digital if you do want a dictaphone. If your Ipod is something you carry around all the time, and you can just get an adaptor so that it'll record you, that sounds like the best option to me. I use my phone because it's always with me, and I can transfer the files off if I want, but I never do 'cos the mic on it is so crap.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='156735' date='Mar 13 2008, 02:19 PM']Glass of champagne anyone?[/quote] I'd like a consolation bottle!

[quote name='Paul_C' post='156722' date='Mar 13 2008, 01:47 PM']having knowledge will only stifle creativity if you choose to let it.[/quote] After reading everyone's posts, I suppose that has to be correct. In which case you'd be better off with as much knowledge as possible, so yeh I guess my idea is crap.

I see! I've only used a volume pedal on guitar, and I did this to control the gain on a distortion pedal. It never occurred to me that people would want to turn down their distorted sound without reducing the gain.

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='156630' date='Mar 13 2008, 11:58 AM']in spite of all this, his music still sounds like nothing you've ever heard before[/quote] This guy sounds interesting, can we have a link or something? Your post was very good! I need to take a break from this thread for today or i'll get shouted at for not getting any work done!

Obviously knowing theory doesn't stop you from experimenting with different notes and scales which aren't even described as such by theory. However, to do that you wouldn't need to know any theory either. A person who knows theory MIGHT stick to what they know and have learned as the correct way of doing things and/or the way things have always been done. A person who knows no theory would not be able to stick to standard scales and the like, because they wouldn't know what they are. I'm not saying people shouldn't learn and use music theory. I'm speculating on it's effects upon creativity and development as a musician as a whole.

[quote name='dlloyd' post='156607' date='Mar 13 2008, 11:30 AM']Which is learning theory. Call it 'that thing I play in that song' or call it 'E minor pentatonic', you're still organising musical knowledge in a theoretical way. Having a name that other people understand helps you communicate your idea with other people.[/quote] But if you learn in that way, you might develop weird new scales and shapes, which are combinations of what theory already describes but sound like a totally new style. Just one possibility? In reply to the post before, maybe no-one actually said "stupid" but it was the impression I got from comments like "is entirely illogical to choose to ignore beneficial information" Reading too much into things I guess?

[quote name='dlloyd' post='156591' date='Mar 13 2008, 11:15 AM']A player who genuinely has no theory would just be playing random notes of random length at random times. That would be pretty unconventional in a musician, but I probably wouldn't ask him to join my band.[/quote] The player couldn't hear what they were playing and learn from that? Oh, those notes sounded nice, where were they? Oh, this run of notes seems to form a shape, and I can use that shape with this different song as well. That note sounded crap, I wont use that with that chord again.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='156583' date='Mar 13 2008, 11:06 AM']I have said in earlier posts "not exclusively" there are exceptions that prove the rule. If you are musical no amount of practice will hinder that, if you are not musical an amount of practice can, to an extent, cover that. Added to that, a great performer will make music out of anything. (unmusical technical regimes included)[/quote] I think earlier other people were saying and/or implying that it would be stupid to ignore music theory and unmusical technical regimes. Where this may be true for people who are struggling with getting to grips with an instrument or music in general or just average students (you know 'cos you've taught them!), it's certainly not true in EVERY situation. When you say it's only a very small minority of players who can progress without these things, I suppose i should trust your judgment on that, but I really didn't think that was the case when I started rambling on.

I think I prefer him with a jazz goatee.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='156569' date='Mar 13 2008, 10:53 AM']Oh yes, and I'm giving you my opinions (and accepting yours) on what I am able to deduce from your line of reasoning. I have taught literally hundreds of people to play bass guitar and double bass from school age through degree courses and up to retirement age. And believe me I've heard many arguments, some compelling and some spurious.[/quote] So after all that experience you're totally convinced that to be a great bassist, you need to learn theory, and practice technical regimes which may not always be musical? If the answer is yes, then I guess I have to give in to the experience really. I'm way to young to have settled on my opinions and I have to predict that I will eventually come around to your way of thinking. Just to be clear - I'm not lazy or procrastinating or making excuses or whatever. I put a lot of effort into my music and i'm constantly learning and developing. I may not be practicing uber-technical routines every night, and I certainly can't read music, and I have no desire to re-learn any theory, but this doesn't mean that i'm ignoring everything that has gone before me, and it doesn't mean i'm lazy.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='156560' date='Mar 13 2008, 10:38 AM']It seems to me that you will employ any answer you can come up with, to avoid taking on board hundreds of years of very successful refinement of musical developement, some of which has been devised by the likes of people you would seemingly aspire to be able to match for musical ability. By my judgement in a learning sense this puts you at a distinct disadvantage to those that do the work without procrastination, prevarication and refusal to accept the validity of systems that have existed for more than a hundred of your lifetimes.[/quote] No, I was genuinley just answering your post. I don't get why a technical practice regime that uses motor skill A and B would be better than a melodic bassline that uses motor skill A and B. I really don't get it! I have never refused to accept the validity of music theory! I accept it for what it is. All I am saying is "I wonder if we really need it" or, would a player who didn't have it be a less conventional player? Does less conventional mean good? Do you have to be able to play harder things than you actually need to to be a good player? etc etc etc. We're just discussing stuff aren't we?

[quote name='Paul_C' post='156558' date='Mar 13 2008, 10:36 AM']So you're suggesting playing EVERY melody in every position ? Sounds like a late night to me ..[/quote] I obviously have no idea of what these technical practice regimes consist of! If you do one practice routine to develop a certain kind of movement for a while, you'll have improved using that movement. If you practice a melody for a while that uses the same movement you should also improve by the same amount? I don't get why you would need to practice an infinite number of peices to match the attainment acheivable by these technical practice regimes. Like I say though, it seems I don't know what i'm on about.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='156552' date='Mar 13 2008, 10:28 AM']I think possibly not as melodies are limited by the motor movements that are required to play them whereas execises have all the possibles in them to give even usage to each movement. Thats why study books exist and in the classical tradition (DB for me) exercises are interspersed with melodies that use the movements you've been practising and sometimes combine the two.[/quote] If there are melodies that use the movements you've been practising then IMHO you should have been practising those melodies in the first place.

[quote name='Paul_C' post='156544' date='Mar 13 2008, 10:19 AM']Exactly. I mentioned in another thread the Billy Sheehan clinic at the Bass Institute, where he showed us a few exercises he does regularly, pointing out that they're not for use on stage, as they don't sound particularly musical, but they are good for building up muscle memory to use to play, in his case, quick, melodic lines.[/quote] Yeh but wouldn't he do just as well practising his quick melodic lines? What's the point in non-musical practice when you can do musical practice?

[quote name='jakesbass' post='156506' date='Mar 13 2008, 09:32 AM']Maybe not quite understood, performed yes. But those that can do it to astonishing levels without study are not the norm, and probably not the best examples to hold up as models of how to do it. (and probably just devise their own methods) I think those unusual individuals are often prodigious and it seems to me, quite competent, or even brilliant by the time they realise there is theory to be learned. If you are not making those around you stare open mouthed at your ability to play within a year or two of getting the instrument into your sweaty palms, then you're probably going to have to knuckle down like the rest of us.[/quote] Why not quite understood? What is there to understand other than what can be heard?

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='156417' date='Mar 12 2008, 11:57 PM']Kinda gave up on all this TBH. The thing is, learning theory and practicing lots will make you a better player, better able to work with others of a similar level of theory and practice. Whether you want/need/can be arsed to work on theory and practice is up to you, just dont try and justify your lack of effort, theory and practie with bs.[/quote] Is that directed at me? I never tried to justify my lack of effort theory or practice. I might be talking BS but that's just your opinion. [quote name='aryustailm' post='156452' date='Mar 13 2008, 05:00 AM']How could it not? I never understand this anti-theory mentality. Its like saying you could always speak coherantly with your own ideas when you were a toddler. Obviously that isn't the case for anyone, and music is no different - You learn how to talk first (by imitation) then you realise why the things you are copying work, and can start to put together your own statements/ideas. Most people learn by listening and copying, and figure out how to use it for themselves instinctively. Some people figure out the intricate workings of the language, whether that's english or music, to understand how to say things more effectively without ums....errss.....or bum notes: they're the same thing. I don't see how knowing more about your chosen language/music could do anything other than make you better at getting your thoughts/music across?! Also, remember bass is just a tool to make music. You can't have bass without having music. You can have music without a bass. Getting better at music makes you a better musician.[/quote] So did learning English at school make you better at speaking it? It didn't for me. I did try to learn Spanish at school, but I found it very difficult. However, I honestly believe that if I had done a Spanish exchange for 3 months, without ever having learned the language, I would have been able to speak it and with far more authenticity than if I had learned in a classroom from an English guy. [quote name='aryustailm' post='156452' date='Mar 13 2008, 05:00 AM']Theory is only to understand music that has ALREADY been made - it should never dictate how music SHOULD be made. But, understanding your favourite music means you can choose to invoke something similar, or choose otherwise. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want the choice?![/quote] It should never dictate how music should be made - but does it? Maybe subconsciously, or maybe only the worst composers let it happen. I totally accept your point, but I honestly think that music can be understood to as proficient a level without any theory at all. When i'm listening to music and analysing it in my head, I don't once wonder what that chord's called, or what time signature this is etc. I have no problem communicating my ideas about music without using the language of music. So basically, you can still have the choice that you're talking about, but without the theory. Queen - I will borrow my guitarist's copy of Kant's "Critique of Judgement" and give it a read.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='156110' date='Mar 12 2008, 03:57 PM']I'm going to stick my neck out and say yes, since I can only utilise my own subjectivity to comment on what I consider sh*t or brilliant and anywhere inbetween. We live in an age where we have to pussy foot around for fear of upsetting the sensibilities of one person or another. Adds up to homogeny to me and I'd rather have a bit of rough and tumble, that's why I often enjoy BigBeefChief posts. He says it and be damned and lives up to it. Even when (as I often do) I disagree with him.[/quote] OK, but you are building subjectivity into your answer. Of course some of us will think one bass player is sh*t and another sh*t-hot. We all have different opinions. If this is the case then how is it possible to become better, other than within your own subjectivity? For example, I might have a friend who loves really sloppyily played basslines with plenty of bum notes. In my opinion, i'd have to get worse to get better in his opinion. Bearing all that in mind, how is it possible to say "learning music theory makes you a better bass player"? I admit i'm being a bit of a tw@ now, but as I said to you before, i'm an argumentative f*cker [quote name='jakesbass' post='156171' date='Mar 12 2008, 04:34 PM']I think that's well said[/quote] +1 that was a great post BigD There have been loads of really good posts in the discussion, and I have been changing my mind all day long! I think Bilbo struck home when he said "We are the sum total of our experiences and those experiences aren't only our practice schedule; it is also our listening." Which is totally true. If you take what I was saying earlier, and apply listening instead of practicing techniques/learning theory then it's entirely impossible for anyone who's ever listened to music to create something as original/unconventional as I was talking about. I'll see how my drumming goes, but (as I already have an RSI in my wrist) I may well buy a couple of lessons.