jakenewmanbass

[quote name='Rayman' post='700869' date='Jan 4 2010, 07:58 PM']Of course, being a musical genius is a rare thing, and pretty much all of us on here could never qualify in that particular area, and I take no offence at all in anything you point out, we're just having a debate, and I must admit to be playing devil's advocate a little, but nevertheless, I still think there's an argument for those of us that [i]are[/i] theoretically illiterate, genius or not, that we have little or no need to understand theory to get as far as we want to go as musicians.[/quote] Granted.

[quote name='Rayman' post='700732' date='Jan 4 2010, 06:00 PM']I'm just making the point, not arguing against learning the theory. I understand that theory would help me be a better bass player, but still, after all these years of being in bands, I have no desire to learn any.[/quote] Thats very different from suggesting that reading music renders you somehow deficient in ability to express creatively. And it's worth adding that if you don't read how could you possibly know whether or not that were true, you must by definition be guessing that that is the case as you have not been in the chair. Don't take this the wrong way I don't seek to undermine you or your abilities personally at all, but I regard your argument as surmising and somewhat spurious, so in the interest of balance I have to point out what I see as argument with little evidence or reason. I am well aware that there are some great musicians that are totally theoretically illiterate, it's just that that is no evidence for trying to do the same in the face of, lets face it, a likely lack of genius on the part of most that would hold that argument aloft.

[quote name='Rayman' post='700695' date='Jan 4 2010, 05:35 PM']Do you not feel that reading the dots makes you stay within the box rather than think outside of it with your own creativity?[/quote] No to both your questions. But it strikes me that yours is a common refrain emanating from the camp of people who don't know that stuff. You generally don't hear the readers/theoreticians saying it's not possible to be a good player without theory, but you commonly hear the ear only players hint at some deficit in the mystical indefinable feel assertion that they assume readers have. I see beyond that and feel that that assertion is generally borne of insecurity and is actually attack in defence. For the record From 8-22 I taught myself bass guitar from records and had some double bass lessons at school. From 22 I went to college, carried on the double bass and learned quite extensive theory and practical disciplines on both instruments. I have absolutely no deficit in my feel from being able to read and would stand up next to any uk bass player and hold my own in terms of just playing a bass part well (obviously there are some guys that do some things just way better than me). What I can do is perform an entire nights worth of music by reading and interpreting chord charts or dots. I'm not the worlds best dot reader but have done some pretty heavy duty reading in my career. The main part of my learning has come through my ears the other stuff is added to that, not a detracting element.

To be more creative and hone my service to the bottom of the chord.

As I said in an earlier post, learning by ear should not be underestimated, it is after all the immediate connection to the music, whereas in the written form it is once removed. Ultimately one is not better than the other but both will serve you well in many (especially pro) circumstances. Pete I totally get that you love what you're doing and I can see that you have the ability to put some of yourself into the music (if you think about that, it's impossible not to) the only point at which I disagree is your suggestion that you're too long in the tooth, never! What I think is important is that you are able to do the job and do it well, with or without theory and whether you were to expand your wider knowledge is a matter of pure choice.

Just another thought to add to this thread, and it's an observation of principal. The question is: Does being (as Pete put it) pretty clueless about theory matter? I think if you learn music that you then regurgitate for a performance it's ok, but if you learn the parts and that is it, then you are at the edge of your ability. I prefer to be well within my abilities so that I can put all my energy into something simple. To my mind it follows that with that mindset I will do the job better. So when I learn the SD stuff, I play the songs over and over and learn them by rote and then I will mess with alternatives, then I'll learn to sing the melodies and the harmonies, then I'll check the voicings on the keys, in H Gang I also transcribed, rehearsed and performed the backing vocals, with me and 2 girl singers. I can sing all the guitar solos, I know how most of the chord sequences are spelled out in theoretical terms. Having that complete view of the music that I'm involved in (I tend to do it with all the projects I do) makes for a sympathy with the music that I think serves to enhance my grasp of my role within it. Being honest, I love it and care about it... mainly because it gives and has given such great joy in my whole life. So the basic human principal at the core of what I'm trying to say is another question: Why wouldn't you want to do [i]everything[/i] as well as you possibly can?

Pm coming your way. Jake

I can't remember where I heard this but I read somewhere that the so called 'carved' front and back tables on some chinese basses are actually pressed and steamed. Anyone who knows anything about wood knows that trees take a long time to take on their new role (ie being a bass) so those basses are very likely to try to return to their former shape. With that in mind if you're looking at a 'carved' bass make sure it is just that.

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='698187' date='Jan 1 2010, 06:00 PM']Here's something else. When I learn a song I don't think about what the chords are. ie, I don't think, 'Right, this is A to G to C etc.' I think in patterns on the fretboard. I look at the fretboard as a grid and remember the changes as almost geometrical patterns. I'm sure other players must do this. Am I right?[/quote] Not wishing to be too provocative but in my mind that is a very limiting way to learn I don't think of the note names when I'm playing but I do have aural note choices in my head. I have control over my entire fretboard so can chose notes at will from various places. I don't always do that as some songs just require a set line but I think that even that is improved by having a wider scope than the job dictates. My favourite players are the ones who can totally blow the sh*t out of it all over the instrument but ditch over using that facility in favour of playing the right thing for the song. Being hugely facilitated on the instrument also makes (for good musicians) it possible for the simple things to be done as well as they can be... There are examples of shredders that overdo it all the time but to me they are not good musicians. (my personal terminology in play there)

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='697373' date='Dec 31 2009, 05:48 PM']I always think that, judging by the material I play, people expect me to be a jazz/theory monster, but I always maintain that anyone can learn songs by rote, but it's the groove and feel that count. I know Jake has played the Dan's material with Bryan on drums (H Gang), and he's a theory master. What do you think, Jake?[/quote] Hi Pete, I have indeed played the Dan songbook with Bryan and some other very fine musicians including Les Chisnall, Johnny Heyes, Mike Walker, Johnny Musgrave, Andy Schofield and Suzanne Higgins and in that band on vocals was the phenomenally talented Neil Fairclough, but his first instrument is bass and he is a dynamite player (ask Bryan). It's a funny question really Pete because it's all about the player and what he or she brings. Firstly I don't consider myself to be a theory master, I simply have learned enough about it to make rehearsals quick and easily conducted, and also to enable me to convey what I want as a teacher. The whole point about theory is twofold, firstly it is a very convenient system by which musicians that want to produce music very quickly and to a very high standard can do so with a universally understood language. Secondly it is a means by which you can gather, store, and facilitate information hopefully with a view to improving and widening your abilities. What is unusual about music in general is that people who are totally ignorant of theory can be literally brilliant and the reason for that is as you say, if your ears are good then you can learn by rote and be very authentic, original, musical etc etc (the aural tradition of learning should NOT be underestimated) Then we turn to Steely Dan. I had a discussion with Mike Walker about playing in H Gang, we both agreed that Steely Dan is a great band to cover and we had great fun doing it. I have to say that it was an awesome sounding band (sincerely not wanting to be competitive) And what me and Mike thought was behind that was the spirit of the membership. Every one of the people named above are very broad musicians and a few of them are world class. Each player would be comfortable in virtually any musical setting up to and including contemporary Jazz. In my mind if you accept that Becker and Fagen had two main ingredients in their output, the first being a love of Jazz and the second, the use of the best musicians available then I think you would have to agree that it follows that a cover version using the same elements would have a pretty good shot at getting the spirit right. So thats the long answer. The short answer is: I think in the right player, knowing your sh*t playing that stuff would help. But it's worth remembering that Chuck Rainey's main USP is feel and groove. But then they did use some total masters in their field, eg Wayne Shorter. Another point to consider is how it would have happened in the first place. There would have been Rhythm charts galore in the studio when those sessions took place and but for the existence of recorded music you wouldn't have been able to learn it in the first place. Ok so it wasn't a short answer, which I think illustrates that this question is multi faceted and many elements of the various arguments that will be presented have validity. I just try to sit atop it all being magnanimous and smug

I think it more likely that your perceptions of what is good is catching up with reality. When you first do things your analysis of their competency is relatively low as your attention is drawn to the task rather than the quality of the task (therefore it's easy to think you did it well). As muscle memory and familiarity come into focus then more of your analytical skills are available for use, so it seems you are playing things worse but often the opposite is true. The answer is to continue to provide yourself with challenges and goals that are slightly beyond your reach whilst at the same time learning to nail the consistency elements of what you already know.

[quote name='Doddy' post='695735' date='Dec 29 2009, 05:11 PM']Just as a quick aside-I get really annoyed when I'm busking a tune that i know and I'm told that its in say,E[/quote] which illustrates my point about the need arising when communicating it to others. [quote name='Doddy' post='695735' date='Dec 29 2009, 05:11 PM']Sorry to slightly derail the thread slightly.[/quote] Not a derail at all I don't think, it's a real world example of why theoretical accuracy is important.

[quote name='Stu-khag' post='695629' date='Dec 29 2009, 02:49 PM']cheers jake for the reply. He paid around 450 for it new plus the cost of the soft case. I think the pick up was around 150 to 200. Im going to see it so will find out exactly what it is and maybe take a few pics. I figured for that price it should be worth a punt providing its all okay. Just clicked on your sig myspace site. Yamit Mamo- helluva voice. We've filmed a bit with her in work on doctor who confidential[/quote] Hi Stu, sounds like it could be ok for a go at it. You might struggle with gigging tho. it all depends on a bunch of factors. Thanks for the kind words about Yamit, it's my favourite project, I am her live band MD. I knew she had done Dr Who, it's been great for her. She's one hell of a songwriter too. And to top it all, I'm a Cardiffian originally Let us know how you get on mate. Jake

[quote name='Bottle' post='695463' date='Dec 29 2009, 11:03 AM']Hi folks Figured I'd post this here since I'm taking a greater interest in learning songs by ear and increasing my general knowledge of theory and technique. I posted [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=71627"]this[/url] in the off topic thread, and thanks to Pete Young for working out the chords - ta muchly. I now have a follow-up question regarding key signatures - how do you guys go about working out a key signature for piece you maybe only know from playing by ear? I was wondering because in the course of working on the song 'Helicopter' by The Feeling, and from the chords that Pete worked out for me, I was struggling to fit the song into a particular key. The best I can figure out is that it is in E-major with a minor 3rd (G) or that it's in E-minor with a major 7th (D#) - how does that stack up? Thanks Ian [/quote] Hmm that suggests harmonic minor, it depends on the nature of the chords in use. I usually consider which is the predominant home key, (the most played major or minor chord in a piece) As Bilbo suggests first and last chords are a good bet a lot of the time. The key signature is a less important piece of info than having a good aural sense of what notes in a scale you need to play to fit the piece. The theory becomes more important whan you want to describe what you are playing to others. I don't think many players think in keys and scales or even which notes.... more (in my estimation) sounds.

I'll just add a word of recommendation here, Steve depped for me on a function and was reported by the band as having done "an awesome job", add that to the feedback he's getting for his teaching abilities and it's got to be a good bet.

I'd want to know what price was paid for each item when new, and what they are before committing. There are lots of good pickups which should be under £100 second hand. And the chinese basses range from absolutely terrible to ok.

glad you like it guys, Jake

Here is a quickly done Jimmy Johnson transcription, I say quickly done as I have added no dynamic markings as it is so particular to the man that the best way to cop the nuances is to have a close listen whilst watching the notes go by. What I love about this bassline is that it goes from very straightforward and solid through to death defying acrobatics in a big outro section all, with no loss of groove or feel. Every note chosen by Jimmy serves the song in a way that is utterly selfless. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do.... Jake edit: btw the album is James Taylor Live [attachment=38785:Up_on_the_roof.pdf]

1) How long have you been playing Bass Guitar/String Bass for or both? Bass gtr 34yrs, Double bass 29yrs 2) If you don’t play string bass/bass guitar have you thought of doubling up on either to get more recognition as a bass player? na 3) Who are your favourite exponents of both string bass/bass guitar? Dave Holland, Ray Brown, Marc Johnson, Scott LaFaro, Jimmy Johnson, Steve Swallow, Meshelle Ndegocello 4) Do you think that both the bass guitar and string bass are important as bass instruments? equally, yes 5) What genres do you think are important for bass players to listen to? all 6) Do you think electric guitarists can learn to play bass guitar more than string bass? if you mean more easily? Yes 7) Do you think bass can be used to solo as well as accompany other instruments? in the right context yes 8) Do you think it is important to learn to sight read? essential for all but the most gifted 9) What do you think of bass guitars such as 5 string/6 string e.g. as being an add-on to the bass players role? anything above 5 sounds poor to me (subjective) 10) What are your opinions on electric upright basses as a substitute for the string bass? there are some good ones, but they don't have the same energy 11) What is the best amp to use for bass guitar or string bass? subjective 12) What pickups for string bass are the best for capturing the natural tone of the instrument? ones that include some amplification of the air/wood vibrations tend to sound more natural, but it depends on the instrument and the player.

[quote name='JTUK' post='689055' date='Dec 19 2009, 01:44 PM']You get asked... IME.[/quote] exactly

[quote name='witterth' post='688965' date='Dec 19 2009, 11:39 AM']Quick one .. its not so much what you know, it's WHO you know... that's the REAL key......[/quote] That's a common misconception, because it sort of suggests that you don't have to be good, just know people....well you really do have to be good to have a good rep and consistent work, especially now that there are less sessions than ever. I wouldn't for a moment say that networking isn't important, it really is, but you have to have the skill set. The skill set to do general sessions is to be very good and authentic in a variety of styles. To be able to make your own charts very quickly for stuff that isn't written down so amazing ears are required, and you need to be able to read and interpret written music very well and quickly, ideally right first time everytime. You also need to be able to work with people well. And an important edit... when you play something that you think is the best idea for the music and the producer says no! Then you need no ego and to come up with an alternative. To the OP: If you are thinking of trying to use sessions (if you can find any) to expand your capability then I would suggest you are looking at it from the wrong angle. You need to have all that stuff in place BEFORE you enter the building

I've got a presonus Firestudio it has 8 ins and each one is a dedicated pre amp (class A according to the bumf) my valves are in my bass pre and my mics so I get warmth there and a really clean in from the presonus, (which is firewired to the mac) I think to make a really solid decision you need to be sure about your maximum requirement and just overshoot that a bit. There's nothing worse than always wanting a little more than you've got and having to upgrade when you haven't had the use of what you have bought.

quick midweek bump for this... did the rehearsal with gtr drums (both west end pit players) and 3 vocals today. Sounding sweet...

I feel quite lucky in this regard. Because of playing various double basses over the years and sometimes having to gig different instruments abroad or provided instruments in general, I have learned to very quickly assess the differences between what I'm playing at any given time and what I'm used to playing. The lucky bit is this seems to transfer to bass guitar too, so in germany earlier this year I had a mex Jazz, a Stingray 5 and a double bass all provided on a few gigs, and managed to get on fine with them all.

I'm going to add a slightly contrary view here, just cos I want to air this view. I'm not especially attached to my thoughts on this but will posit anyway... I don't go with the idea of playalongs at all, as a bass player I think it's really important to create a very strong sense of the changes whether you be using closely related harmomic structure or otherwise. Even when tearing it up both harmonically and rhythmically I think it should be clear (at least to you) how, what you are playing relates to the sequence over which you are playing. I do my best (upright especially ) solos either unaccompanied, or very sympathetically comped by a good pianist and drummer. And honestly with the exception of the really great soloists I find that the typical bass solo played by many guys I've heard just blowing through practise routines and scale/arpeggio things stultifyingly boring. I want to hear real music, properly conceived melody, thought and emotion, and honestly I think the very last place in music those elements will be found is in a playalong. It takes the responsibility of making the changes or carrying melody and form away and in my experience gives rise to all manner of fret w***ery. A naturally ,great musician will of course use a playalong to great effect and not suffer the consequences, as his or her greatness will preclude the inherent tendencies to fret w***. A lesser musician (who might otherwise achieve greatness through hard work and I've seen that happen with my own eyes) may well flounder on the rocks of playalongs endlessly banging out formulaic, ill conceived ideas as their freedom of expression is limited to the sterility of a mechanical, single strata, looped harmonic progression... Now I've spilled that bit of bile, what do the rest of you think?... am I mad...?