jakenewmanbass

Sad indeed, a great great player.

I've got one, MK with sig electronics, and prior to playing one I would have said much the same as has been said about 'furniture basses'. At the end of the day I don't give a f*** what it cost (it's tax deductible anyway) and don't care If I scratch it (I do take care, but it's to be played) It is just, by a million miles, the closest representation of what I want to hear of any bass I've ever played, it is [b][i][u]the best[/u][/i][/b]. It has massive presence of sound in any gig situation. I've gigged it in some pretty large rooms (O2 arena being the biggest) just pre amp to desk and laughed out loud at how it filled the room with warm pleasing sound. I don't mean that can't be acheived by other instruments, it's just that this one works for me.... can you tell?!? I should make the point that for me it is also a tool of the trade, most tradesmen want the best tools for them, I'm no different.

[quote name='cheddatom' post='247514' date='Jul 25 2008, 08:50 AM']I don't think there is any research to support you in saying "In the world of music there are thousands of examples of successful, trained musicians/composers throughout history. There are a smaller number of people who are successful and great without training." ...but if you have a link to some research and/or a reason behind this statement? I'm guessing you're thinking about hundreds of years worth of classical composers for whom the ability to notate is an essential skill. If you think about early blues, or jazz, (i'm guessing) there would be an equal number on both sides.[/quote] A fair observation, I [i]was[/i] including all music through history.

[quote name='cheddatom' post='247338' date='Jul 24 2008, 10:18 PM']Some of the wording here is very confusing, if not ambiguous. You are giving examples to give weight to your argument, so why is it "unhelpful" if I give examples for mine? What is "accepted evidence based argument"? You think that there are some great untrained composers - but apparently they're anomalies!? I think we hold the same viewpoint but that I can't understand your elaborate summary. Dumb it down man![/quote] I'll try dumb down, sorry, I'm very prone to elaborate conjecture Tom so bear with me, I bore myself sometimes . In the world of music there are thousands of examples of successful, trained musicians/composers throughout history. There are a smaller number of people who are successful and great without training. Using the smaller number as a reasoning for not being trained is a poor example and is a weightless argument for not knowing your sh*t IMO.

[quote name='cheddatom' post='247236' date='Jul 24 2008, 08:18 PM']Jake - Sometimes I find an idea questionable, such as the idea that a musician fluent in music theory is a better musician than someone without much knowledge of theory. I think in some circumstances this would be the case - working as a session musician, or "dep" (still not sure what that stands for?) or working with a group of very technical/fluent in music theory people. On the other hand, if we were talking about creating music from "the soul" then music theory is irrelevant - each to his own. Anyway - if I find an idea questionable, I will try and find out the reasons behind it - if there are any. I don't think that I have been ignoring the content in these pages. I think you yourself have missed some of my points. Wasn't it you who said giving examples of "theory-less" composers was pointless, and then in another post used a list of "theory-expert" composers? Sorry if not.[/quote] I said it was unhelpful, anomolies are always poor evidence. My examples of lots of well educated composers simply establishes that there is a validity to that route. This does not undermine the validity of other methods. It's just that citing examples does not establish the weight of accepted evidence based argument. In other words, take understanding from what I say, not from what I didn't say. That happens all the time. Just because someone does not state a certain view does not mean they don't hold it. So for the record I think there are some great untrained composers it seems you assumed I thought one camp is better, I don't. [quote name='cheddatom' post='247236' date='Jul 24 2008, 08:18 PM']Sorry if I pissed you guys off [/quote] It takes more than an interest in things musical to piss me off Tom so no apology needed.

[quote name='ARGH' post='247126' date='Jul 24 2008, 06:30 PM']*Ive wanted those lessons,Im doing summat about it too..and it was stupid AM when I wrote the post,sorry fella.[/quote] No need to apologise mate. There is some truth in some of your points, but there are also some good people coming out of the places you speak of.

[quote name='6stringbassist' post='247056' date='Jul 24 2008, 05:18 PM']How many conversations do we have in a day, and how many do we remember ?. But we remember melodies, even if we don't remember the words to the song, I think music says, or can say more than words.[/quote] Melodies are by their nature far more emotionally quintessential than someone like me rattling on. Quotes and cliches work for the same reasons

[quote name='cheddatom' post='247049' date='Jul 24 2008, 05:11 PM']My question is "what advatages do composers with extensive knowledge of music theory have over those with almost no knowledge of music theory?"[/quote] Facility. It takes nothing away from the notable examples of people who achieve the same without extensive knowledge, but then I have never said it did. Would just like to add Tom that you seem in this debate to be taking little account of what is said in peoples various points here, strikes me that you may be doing that in order to rush to your next point. Many of the points you raise have been addressed and answered quite successfully and that you raise questions from dialogue that are not resultant from their assertion suggests a little over eagerness to have the debate rather than absorb the resultant evidence, style over substance as it were. You know I enjoy a debate, and you know I enjoy your hunger for the same, today I think you need to read a little more thoroughly.

[quote name='cheddatom' post='247007' date='Jul 24 2008, 04:37 PM']"music is a language" - is that fact?[/quote] I'm not daft enough to be drawn on 'facts' if you care to explore you will find lots of evidence from linguists making comparisons between music and language [quote name='cheddatom' post='247007' date='Jul 24 2008, 04:37 PM']I am in no way denying that there are benefits to knowing music theory (communication between musicians, creating commercial music etc) but I really do not see any benefit to composing that this knowledge can bring.[/quote] Then you are not looking hard enough mate, eg there are lots of examples in my last post, it strikes me that your frame of mind (I'm guessing at cheeky mass debator) is possibly obscuring your view of the evidence. It's all in my last post

[quote name='cheddatom' post='246974' date='Jul 24 2008, 04:03 PM']Alex and Jake - I don't disagree with anything you've said in your last two posts, but I think that after so many pages of discussion someone should have at least explained to me how theory can help you write better songs, or how theory could help you "find the right chord" any quicker.[/quote] Sorry Tom I had missed that direct question. The answer to my mind is simple, A broad knowledge of the entire vocabulary of a language (music is a language) allows greater and greater degrees of definition by familiarity with the terms, syntax etc etc. Having the knowledge opens previously unknown possibilities. There are people that have both talent and acquired skill, they generally do very well in music. ABBA are a classic example two very educated musicians with a great ear for a good tune. Very very successful. Barry Manilow, people dislike him but he's a very accomplished writer arranger and Musical Director (thats how he started) there are hundreds of examples of these people. Burt Bacharach, Stevie Wonder, Quincey Jones, Most film score writers, Led Zeps John Paul Jones the list is endless. Using the argument 'so and so wrote/played great music without formal training' is very unhelpful to the debate and is worthless to point out in my view, it proves nothing other that the truth about those individuals. Countless writers, composers, performers throughout the history of music have had gargantuan knowledge of the entire language of music and they have produced really notable results, we are surrounded by it every day. Huge amounts of the music you hear all the time is written, produced and performed by experts in their field. The people that try to be disparaging about the merits of this side of music are just blind to the reality of an industry and I for one can no longer find the energy to try to lead them into the light. A quick and direct answer is: If you follow the path of received wisdom, you can familiarise yourself with what was previously mysterious to your ear and grow and develop into a skilled musician that has use of received wisdom. WINNER

Excuse the pun but this argument is academic. There is a world of professional music out there and as a means of communication it utilises written versions of what to greater and lesser degrees, all musicians know in sound form. Those here that say that the value of that is risible are very unlikely to a ) have a career in music. b ) get very far, very quick as a 'music for the love of it' player unless they are exceptionally talented. My telling people about the merits of music theory will not make a jot of difference to those whose minds are closed to the notion that it can be [i]any[/i] good. Any really serious musician will acknowledge they are the poorer for it. Let's just love music for what it is and allow for each others differing methods of achieving what we desire from it. If you diss people that know theory for that reason alone you are a fool. If you don't think musicians can achieve anything in music without theory you are an equal fool. It takes all sorts fellas

[quote name='ARGH' post='246577' date='Jul 24 2008, 04:44 AM']Now Ive HAD to read on a gig,Ive not had to sight read...yet...because I dont play in those circles,But I sure as hell would love to,coz the pays a damn sight better than what Im on right now gig to gig.[/quote] It's a bit strange for you to criticise establishments that offer serious musicians an opportunity to acquire those skills, when you say you'd like to be able to do the gigs that require that skill set, sounds like envy and bitterness to me. There are some people in those places that have a the attitude you speak of but there are also plenty of really good ones that have gone on to cutting in the pro world having had the excellent opportunites colleges offer. I feel you're allowing some words (not all) out of your bottom sir.

[quote name='ARGH' post='246577' date='Jul 24 2008, 04:44 AM']I wouldnt say his public display of opinion,is arrogant...I mean How else can you critique,AND, get your point across,as these so called[/quote] I have no problem with people holding an opinion and expressing it openly, what I said was that his means of expression fell a long way short of finding favour with me, and further that I could hear that in his playing. Bolshy, noisy, beligerent and very willing to specifically put other individuals down. It's legitimate to disagree with people but if you 'attack' others methods and way of doing things and dismiss that there are other ways to do things than your own, in my eyes you seriously reduce the validity of your own points by undermining the process by which you arrived at your conclusions. It's true that many people will not hear those attributes in Jeffs playing, I do. I think he has achieved a lot and is a master technician but to my musical soul he just sounds like a big head.

[quote name='silddx' post='246534' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:21 AM']The only time I saw Zap was at Wembley on the Broadway The Hard Way tour. A most fabulous evening of pure magic. I saw Dweezil and Ahmet at the Marquee (with Scott Thunes, who is a huge hero of mine). I met Dweezil and Nuno Bettencourt after but they seemed the most miserable people I've ever met, shame. They signed my ticket though. End of OT Zone.[/quote] Sorry to keep the OT zone alive but I had to add, I had a brief affair with an old girlfriend of Scott Thunes' LMAO it gets so incestuous. I have appreciated more than his bass playing.

[quote name='Buzz' post='246532' date='Jul 24 2008, 12:20 AM']JB's comments did make sense to my mind at least. He advocates learning music over just exercises as the way to improve your playing.[/quote] There is merit in that argument and he obviously feels strongly enough to voice his opinions very publicly, I think his means, ie employing personal attack display intolerance and arrogance. Sadly for him I think that comes through in his playing/music making it for me appreciable but barely enjoyable. Victor Wooten by contrast seems quite humble and sounds as such. I don't enjoy everything that he does but he does have a phenomenal trance like groove that I find utterly irresistible.

[quote name='silddx' post='246515' date='Jul 23 2008, 11:54 PM']Really loving "no more playing" [EDIT and the other songs and your awesome bass] right now having checked your profile and thence to your myspace. Gorgeous voice and tunes. Who's the singer?[/quote] Thanks Bro.. one take! never heard the track before the studio day (Guy Chambers Studio) I played all percussion on it too... It's a girl called, Yamit Mamo. She rocks, I am her bass player and MD. We should be releasing some stuff soon and a hoped for tour to follow. I will of course let everyone here know, and I mean everyone.

[quote name='Jase' post='246505' date='Jul 23 2008, 11:40 PM']Did they walk then because of Scott Thunes??[/quote] Pretty much, it was described to me as the band 'Imploded' I got to see them though, it was a monumental gig. I later then toured and recorded with Ike and Bobby Martin. Seperately. Edit Sorry this is OT Jeff Berlin is a great player, but I wouldn't buy his albums or invite him for tea.

[quote name='Jase' post='246494' date='Jul 23 2008, 11:30 PM']Zappa fired a whole band at one time.......doesn't mean a thing.[/quote] If you're refering to 'the best band you never heard' tour he didn't strictly sack them. I had a conversation with Ike Willis about it.

[quote name='bubinga5' post='246469' date='Jul 23 2008, 10:40 PM']This is IMHO is what makes this forum great, gettings things straight in your mind about your passion, from other passionate people...Great advise J..thanks bro.. the journey continues.. [/quote] You are very welcome... And thanks. J

[quote name='bubinga5' post='246454' date='Jul 23 2008, 10:21 PM']I agree, but a few years ago i was in a band where chordal knowledge would have been useful to interact with the pianist. IE, walking around different chords to make the music flow more. I know more than i did then. but i cant help thinking the more i know, the more i could contribute?![/quote] You're absolutely right, and as I said it is useful, the reason I am emphasising the playing aspect is that many many players I have known and taught are down on themselves because they feel insecure about their knowledge of theory. I feel that it would help them to value what they [i]can[/i] do (the playing) the other stuff (theory) is, by comparison, easy IMO.

[quote name='bubinga5' post='246391' date='Jul 23 2008, 08:28 PM']I guess what your saying is, it would be good to realise a BALANCE, of both emotional inprovisation and technical knowledge!? Oscar made sense also!! the experience you gain from the time you put in on the instrument, show in your playing. I would think that the theory is a platform for the emotional mind to work from. Blimey im getting deep. The only trouble is i have so many bass/musical things going on in my head that thay may not come light without theory????[/quote] Yes and remember this: When you play, [u]you are doing the theory[/u], the only thing you might not be able to do is explain it to someone else in words. The playing is the hard bit, the bit to get good at, what you're doing should be evident in the music you're playing, being able to explain in words is useful but IMO secondary.

I'm going to try not to sound like a know it all but I think it will help if I qualify my opinion. I have been a pro player for 20 yrs and have taught to degree standard for 10, so I do know a bit. Knowing what you're playing technically can be useful, but is not necessary, and certainly it's not bad practice to feel music. You can get further quicker as a player if you technically learn what you're playing but it's very important to remember that playing music is an emotional and soulful expression every bit as much as it is a technical one. I have said it before and I dare say I'll say it again, the aural tradition of absorbing and regurgitating music is as valid as notes on a stave and scales in a book, and is of course thousands of years older. If it works, keep doing it. Jake

One fahkin word Briwyant!!

One of my regular gigs has the line up: Double bass, trombone, acoustic guitar and piano. Girl comes up to us as we finish a touching rendition of Stardust. "Do you play any Spice Girls?" us: "errr... No!"