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[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1320485486' post='1427368'] I personally don`t agree with Simons view on bass mics, having used D112 or beta52 or RE20s for the past 20 years at all levels of gigs,but he has a point that if you are after valve or FX only, an SM57 will do the job well, and you can buy your own for £50 along with a clamp to fix it in the right place on your rig. You must instruct the engineer and then follow it up with very strong objections if he/she ignores you. MM [/quote] Well the ElectroVoice RE20 is a mic designed for broadcast voice applications, its certainly not first and foremost a bass mic. Although it is superb in that application. I prefer the PR40 even to an RE20 though. Its virtually flat from 50Hz to 2Khz (above which its a tad wobblier, but nothing like a D112) D112s and beta52 have heavily eq'ed (basically mid scooped with a peak around 4KHz) frequency plots. They are that way because modern kick drum sounds require exactly that kind of eq, not because bass does (in some cases it can work, mix dependant though). The other point is have a look at the kick drum, if it has the same kind of mic (generically a designed for that purpose mic rather than the same specific brand) the sound guy doesnt understand frequency mixing and is going to struggle to get good seperation between kick and bass compared to a sound guy who makes sure he uses different mics on the two instruments competing for the same sonic territory. This is virtually sound engineering key stage 1 stuff, get this wrong and you are struggling from then on in. If you have had reasonable results with those mics in front of your cab then I'm pleased for you, if you see lots of people do it its because they dont spend the time thinking about it hard enough (seriously). I guarantee you its easier to mix my way (ha ha, its not mine personally, I make no claim to it at all, I've merely listened to some great engineers imparting what they have learnt, and tried a lot of different scenarios and used my ears), I know I've been down every possible path for getting bass and kick (and tuba and db) to sit together in a mix that I can think of. This particular one doesnt work so well in the context of the mix, there is one caveat to that of course, and that is the case where the mix choice is to use the 57 (or similar) on the kick (going for an old school little punchy funk kick drum sound this can work very well indeed) where the bass is very dubby and you low pass it below the presence peak in the mic....

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1320435446' post='1426958'] It's actually easy if you have the right gear, and an open space to do the job. You measure ground plane, the mic literally an inch off the ground, for a half-space result below the baffle step frequency. Then you put the cab on its back and suspend the mic above it to get a half-space result above the baffle step. Splice the two together and you're done. If you want to do off-axis you do that with the cab on its back only, as below the baffle step axial and off-axis are the same. The gear used to be silly expensive, but today the software is free, and the hardware is less than a hundred dollars here. You can do the entire job, including off-axis plots, in about fifteen minutes. [/quote] You havent seen how small his back yard was

Yeah, you hear all these modern 'vintage funk' bands banging on about loose tight feel and all that, nothing, nothing beats uber tight for me, this is absolutely groovey as hell, and they are all on the one so hard its like a pile driver of funk. Love it to death!

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1320423304' post='1426758'] Anything's possible, as every scenario is different. That's why definitive cab measurements are made outdoors (assuming you don't have an anechoic chamber handy) with the mic at least two meters, preferably more, from the cab. [/quote] Yeah true, I've had long chats with Alex about the lengths he has to go to when measuring his cabs to get some idea of their frequency response - not a trivial undertaking at all!

[quote name='Pete Academy' timestamp='1320418452' post='1426672'] I see this quite a lot. When someone starts to learn an instrument, they develop an early boost of confidence that compels them to play crude riffs loud and proud in music shops. Coupled with teenage hormones and angst, this results in an inability to accept criticism. The problem here is that Youtube is the world's biggest music shop. [/quote] So what's my excuse Pete???

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1320417195' post='1426639'] For guitarists (I happen to be one of those as well ...) the power amp/speaker are generally much more a key part of the final sound. As you say, IF those things are key to your bass sound then you can be better off micing up but it seems to me that the majority of bass players, especially many on here who use solid state power amp and "boutique" speakers generally want those latter stages of the signal chain to add as little colour as possible. Also I think generally is much more difficult to get good reproduction of the extended lows from bass by micing up than it is when dealing with a more middly guitar sound. [/quote] Agreed, except for anyone out there running a big Ampeg svt into a fridge. Or some clone of that tone. As for the low end, thats where the DI comes in.

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1320417621' post='1426650'] At a couple of inches off the driver the difference would be minimal; remember that port output is omni-directional. And there's also baffle proximity effect, which enhances the low end. True close micing to separate the driver and port outputs is done from more like a half-inch away. [/quote] Strange, thats not been my experience. Is the port the true origin of the extended octave or so of bass? Certainly seems like it to me. If so is it not possible that a combination of phase and off axis rejection from the mic would cause the mic to be significantly less bassy when micing from a couple of inches off the cone? Especially a cone a long way from the port? Just IME getting that lower octave from a mic close to a speaker cone just doesnt happen.

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1320410802' post='1426475'] The thing about miking a bass cab is that by the time your audience hears it they are getting the sound processed by two sets of speakers (the actual cab and the PA) and a microphone. Generally your better off DI-ing with appropriate EQ (say to remove the highs is you dont use a full range bass cab). [/quote] Depends entirely on the sound of your cab and the amount of your sound that is derivived from your amp after the DI (can anyone say Power amp tube overdrive?). WHat you say suggests that guitarists ought to DI too, and we know that isnt right...

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1320409709' post='1426444'] The two are inseparable. The point of close micing is to take the room out of the equation. [/quote] I'd beg to differ here Bill. If you close mic a couple of inches off the speaker you get none of the benfit of the cab port producing the low end. So by close micing you tend to take at least some aspect of the cab out of the equation as well as the room.

Well I can understand that, after all his rendition of suck my kiss is pretty much the best I've ever heard ......

A mic will output what it does based upon where it is placed (including the angle of placement), its ability to cope with the SPL and its own frequency response. The PA/recording device will get a sum of this and the characteristics of the mic pre being used. The biggest factors here are the polacement of the mic and its frequency response (on and off axis depending on what angle the mic is at to the source). Lets not worry about mic pres at this point! SPL drops at a rate based upon the root mean square of the distance from the source. So, if you put the mic very close to a speaker a couple of things happen, you get almost no meaningful spill from other sources (ie the drum kit and guitarist) and you get pretty much nothing but the speaker's output, so nothing that comes from the port or the tweeter of the cab (or any of the other drivers). In order to get the sound of the cabinet as a whole you need to move the mic back several feet off the speaker grill. The trouble is that you are then fighting for your life against the spill from any other instruments and the potential horrors of the room acoustic. The result will sound further back in the mix, and much more in a space - because you have picked up a lot of information relating to the space in the way of reflections of the boundaries of the room. As with all things in recording its a compromise. One of the reasons I hate and strongly advise against the use of kick mics on bass cabs is they are massively eq'ed, they will cut up to 20dB of mids out of your sound (AKGD112 for example) which is hopeless if what you are trying to do is capture the sound of your bass. These mics are used in the belief that only they can handle the SPL up close - which is a nonsense, lots of dynamic mics can cope up close to a bass cab, and SM57 is happy as can be right in there. They give the initial sense of deeper bass, which is a lie, its not deeper there is just more of it at about 100Hz compared to what is available at 350Hz ([url="http://www.akg.com/mediendatenbank2/psfile/datei/38/D1124055c25c068d6.pdf"]pdf datasheet[/url]). Bass is all the way down to 40Hz though. So, what to do? Well if you dont use loads of effects or rely on the sound of your amp overdriving to get your tone use a DI and you're golden, the simple fact is that in most cases live its the most complete signal you can give to the engineer and he is best placed to tailor that output to the PA, which will have a completely different frequency response to your cab and so should be pre-eq if at all possible (otherwise he will be fighting your amp eq set up for your cab which wont suit his PA speakers as well). If you really need that mic'ed cab your best possible outcome live IME is something like a Heil PR40 and a DI, failing that a Heil PR20, Sure SM58 or 57, Audix D4, Sennheiser E835 or E845 are all fine. That mic is compromised due to close micing, its there to get all the interesting mid range information from the speaker, its not there to get the bass end of the spectrum or the absolute top end, thats where the DI comes in. The two signals are filtered and or eq'ed and mixed together to create a single glorious entirety. Point to note, you absolutely must get the two signals in phase from the mic and DI, in practicale terms that means moving the mic until the output form it is in phase with the DI, which is no where near as hard as it sounds. They are in phase wheh the output is hottest. Using multiple mics on a cab is perfectly possible (and I've done it often) when recording to get more of the room/cab, but you have to be very very confident of your ability to get everything phase aligned. It is not really suitable for live IMO.

Hopefully be able to get up to see it in the new year, absolutely snowed until then!

Me!

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1320176818' post='1423445'] Not sure if you're having this issue with your current rig at rehearsal, but it's one reason why vertical arrays (such as a 2x10 or two) are a better option than something like a 4x10. So when you are off axis, you still get a decent volume. I dare say you probably know this, but it might come in useful for those that don't. [/quote] Absolutely, but for various reasons of practicality I went with the 410. However my current rig has no isssues in a reheasal room because its just immensely punchy and louder than the loudest loud things...

[quote name='razze06' timestamp='1320141085' post='1422701'] Fair enough, we can't all like the same things. Shame that so many people end up having to judge kit only based on the skip-worthy stuff that is usually found in most practice rooms. Peavey stuff is omnipresent and cheap, and they get all the flak. I am equally guilty, having yet to find a piece of Trace Elliot gear i enjoy playing through. [/quote] True this is based upon a lot of kit in reheasal rooms, some kit on gigs, and trying out some kit in shpops (where it gave the impression it might do the job to be fair). Personally I think a reheasal room is a harder space to 'fill' than a pub or stage, its to do with the acoustics, the massive SPLs due to the tiuny room size, the fact that everyone is on top of each other (so you end up way off axis to your cab) etc etc etc Even then Peavey gear ranks lower than the nasty woefully underpowered Hartke stuff you also find in reheasal spaces. Yes I am spoilt with my rig, but my opinion of Peavey comes from way back when all I had was a Laney G300 and a couple of 8ohm 410s, which blew away the Peavey kit (for me at least).

Nah, sorry, voice of dissent here, never heard a decent sounding Peavey rig. Oh it will last forever, and produce an horrific farty punchless bluuurgh of a noise that in no way relates to what my basses have ever sounded like and absolutely will not keep up with a hard hitting drummer and a couple of loud guitarists. And that isnt any particular Peavey rig, it is every single one of the joyless misused and abuses piles of rank plop I have ever had the misfortune to find waiting for me at a gig or in a reheasal space. From mark 3s and 4s through 215s, 210s and 115s, 810s, dynabass heads the daft 2x8 +115 thing, all of it. Rubbish to a rig. I hate every single one....

I really want to hear that room, I love the design elements that went into achieving it, and the no hold barred attention to acoustic detail, I just wish I could hear it is all.... It looks superb too by the way!

[quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1319975632' post='1420648'] the other bass player is pretty good too [/quote] Yes, pretty darned awesome, but it only shows how good a bandleader she is that she lets the other bassist take center stage for large sections of that.

Saw Gong at the Zap in Brighton in the early 90's, superb gig, very, errr laid back, as it were

Totally utterly killer bass player, singer, songwriter and bandleader.... Check this out at about 3:30:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_0SU2jLTjY

You aren't alone, the sr300 series are very very low output for active. If you amp has a passive input you can and may as well use that. Using the gain control is perfectly OK too. It is a bit of a PIA but look at it this way, you probably change battery less as a result....

Pats self on back and feels smug for coiling cables properly for years.....

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1319726664' post='1417819'] We should all turn up somewhere wearing them. What's the collective noun for a bunch of monumental bell-ends? [/quote] I think you'll find its a mixing desk of knobs....

Mine turned up today too! Woot