51m0n

[quote name='PapillonIrl' post='1270757' date='Jun 15 2011, 10:21 PM']More than likely a click track is not appropriate, as stated above, but what if (assuming live tracking)there is an electric bass which everyone wants to hear while tracking, but there is to much bleed from the bass amp into the instrument/drum mics, and the bass player wants to be beside the drummer, who has a 6 piece kit ? All of a sudden you may need to track with headphones and isolate the amps in another room, which potentially means a studio with 10 headphone mixes and 32 channels of input. That should narrow down the selection somewhat.[/quote] This will need to be tracked with headp[hones, bleed from a bass amp would need to be prtetty heavily isoalted IMO unless you are in a really great space, with an amp that sounds perfect. "Fixing it in the mix" will not be possible to any great extent without compromising something else. [quote name='lanark' post='1270884' date='Jun 16 2011, 12:39 AM']When rehearsing the only amplified instruments are my bass, vocals and an electric piano, but obviously when playing live, everything - including percussion and horns - are mic'd up. Line up: Rhythm Section: Bass (most important, obviously) Timbales Congas Keys Miscellaneous percussion played by vocalist or timbale player (maracas, clave, cowbell, guiro eto) Horn Section: Trumpet Trombone Sax Flute Plus vocals (including backing provided by other instrumentalists)[/quote] I would expoect to need to put down at the very least the following:- Rhythm Section: Bass (most important, obviously) Timbales Congas Keys Guide Vocal In one go. Ideally I'd want the horns down as well, but you are looking for a huge live room to do that, and this is almost certainly outside your budget. Could the horns overdub their parts??? Their being able to do that is really going to make or break the result.

Oh boy, you will need a BIG room. It must sound great. You need a veryugood tracking engineer, who understands how to get the necessary amount of seperation, not too much not too little. You then need a guy to mix the tracks who knows the genre at least a little, who understands the technical requirements completely, and has good ears. The question is how can you tell all this? Visit the studio. Talk to the engineer, if he is all about mic selection, placement and room acoustics, he is your man, if he's all about the spec on his computer, he may not be. Ask him to try and record as clean as possible of he starts gating the kit a lot ask why, its something you can choose to do later at mix down if you want, but you cant undo then so he'd better get it bang on for every track (a lot of fannying about that!). They will need a fairly big desk/bunch of pre's, and good mics (and lots of them), check out the gear list on their web page. Doing a big salsa band will challenge a lot of project studios, if they start talking about overdubbing all the percussion you may be in the wrong place, its hard to capture that feel when you arent all playing together - at least the core of the rhythm section should ideally put down the basis with a guide vocal IMO. Click tracks may not be appropriate - certainly not if anyone cant play to one in the band. Make sure the studio is happy for you to take away the stem tracks from the session unmixed. Back in the day you could walk out wiht the multitrack tape if you paid for it, this is the equivalent thing, it means you can get someone else to mix it later if you dont like the studios efforts. A protools or logic project/session isnt as good, its tied to a specific piece of software you see, you want the individual wavs at whatever quality they recorded them at, with no fx on at all.

[quote name='tauzero' post='1269519' date='Jun 15 2011, 12:51 AM']Can a dual compressor (I have a dbx 266xl to hand) be used as a compressor in stage 1 and a limiter in stage 2?[/quote] It can get close. Output from channel 1 into input from channel 2 for a start, channel 1 is your compressor, channel 2 is you limiter. Bypass channel 1 for now. A lot of compressors can be set to be rather like a limiter. Its not difficult. Turn the threshold all the way up (such that nothing is happening) Turn the attack as fast as possible, we want to catch transients! Turn the release to be fast. Turn the ration up to infinity:1 Bring down the threshold until you see some GR action on the meter. A couple or 3 dB would be plenty, you shouldnt really hear it though. Leave the make-up gain alone, on 0dB. Now you are catching peaks. The reason its not a true limiter is the action will be slower than the fastest limiters, and the circuit that senses if a signal has gone over the threshold will be looking at a longer average RMS value typically. Bypass the compressor n channel 2. Set up your compressor in fornt of it on channel1, pay attention to the makeup gain, then turn on channel 2 again. You should see channel 2 catching some peaks when you dig in still. You shouldnt hear it. This is more headroom, at this point you can bring upyour makeup gain on the limiter by maybe half the GR you see on the limiter meter, if you really need to.

I still have my Wonbles vinyl too.... Tobermory was a great track

[quote name='slobluesine' post='1268949' date='Jun 14 2011, 05:53 PM']yeah, yeah, but???? would you pay/want to see them at Glastonbury? now! really!!![/quote] If the audience rushed the stage and ripped them apart? Hell yeah )

I saw them (nearly) in 1974 at Withdean Stadium in Brighton The whole natural amphitheatre of the place was covered in kids sat with mums and dads. The Wombles wombled on out, got about halfway down the middle of the atheltics 'field' (the pitch as used by Brighton and Hove Albion for the last few years). They all looked very happy, waving at us on the surrounding grassy hillocks. As one there was a moaning squeeling roar of delight from the yoof who were present as we all rose to our feet and ran pell mell at them, dunno why we did, but we did, just trying to get some Madame Cholet fur to show our mates at school or something. Honestly it was like a feral tidal wave of kids with the destructive power of 3000 of the little buggers, or one Japanese tidal wave. The poor sods in their suits did what any of us would do in the same situation nowadays, they turned as one and ran howling back into their dressing room under the stand (the one that had Zoo on it from the days when Withdean Stadium was actually Brighton Zoo). Happy days!!

What make and model device is it exactly? Unless you put your system under very heavy load while recording (ie playing back a complex mix during overdubbing with a lod of vsts on all the channels etc etc) there is no reason to that USB2 would nopt manage to record 8 tracks at once. An i5 processor should be fine with a reasonably well configured system. But what is the device in question....

I mix almost exclusively on cans, and master on very large floorstanders. My mixes never suffer from a lack of bass....

Get GOOD cans. Get either [url="http://www.112db.com/redline/monitor/"]112dB monitor VST[/url] or something similar - focusrite bundle something like this with their interfaces. It mixes in some of the left to the right channel and vice versa, iut does a few other things as well. Mix with this as the last effect in the stereo master buss. Remove before rendering the mix. Buyrn a cd and listen on speakers. OR get some Behringer truth monitors, the big active ones, they are far better than they have any right to be for the money, and search on gearslutz for tips on sorting out your room acoustics - basstraps, broadband absorbers and a a cloud all come to moind. Because it really doesnt matter how good your monitors are if the room is acoustically gash then your mixes will not translate to other playback devices and situations.

He did some of Stings stuff. He's superb....

Good mastering engineers cost a fair chunk of change, look at least £250 for a 60 minute album. More for CD pressing and artwork, glass master yada yada yada.... A gash mix is a gash mix, its crap, it could be levels, compression, eq, stereo field, anything.... [url="http://www.wesonator.co.uk/"]Wes Maebe[/url] is no mean mastering engineer.

Get it mastered elsewhere if you are serious. A really top mastering engineer may send it back if the mix is gash, with some suggestions as to how to improve it. A good mastering engineer will get more out of it than you can imagine, and have the kit, experience and ears to make it better than you could imagine.

If you want a super simple crystal clear box then the TC Electronics NDY-1 Nova Dynamics would be great, it has a 3 band compressor designed to be transparent.

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1264133' date='Jun 10 2011, 04:51 PM']Sure. I think with those types of live bands though, the other artefacts are pretty effectively hidden by the rest of the band! It's the odd notes jumping out and others disappearing that are what an audience will pick up on, and where the compressor does compensate effectively for poor technique. It's never going to work in a jazz settingof course. The most audible aspect of poor technique to be highlighted by compressors is inadequate muting IME.[/quote] Agreed! Esp the muting (and fret noise w. newer strings). A well set up transparent compressor can work wonders in a jazz setting though. As a very very general rule of thumb I find that lower ratios with lower thresholds are often more transparent than higher ratios with higher thresholds, when achieving the same dB of gain reduction. Not always the case though....

[quote name='PauBass' post='1264099' date='Jun 10 2011, 04:27 PM']51m0n very helpful info, thanks! Quick question, have you had a chance to try the Aguilar TLC? [url="http://www.aguilaramp.com/products_tlc_compressor.htm"]http://www.aguilaramp.com/products_tlc_compressor.htm[/url] If so what's your opinion? What would you consider to be a good setting with those controls?[/quote] I've not had the pleasure, but it ticks a lot of boxes, not all the controls I'd hope for and no metering (can't think of many or any stompboxes that do). I would expect it to be a decent bit of kit. I'd also try the Markbass Compressore and the JoeMeek FloorQ if you want a full featured stompbox compressor. [quote name='73Jazz' post='1264464' date='Jun 10 2011, 10:39 PM']here is a really good overview of nearly every comp..the reviewer knows his stuff as well..you may take a read and find some answers or suggestions [url="http://www.ovnilab.com/"]Ovnilab[/url][/quote] Yup, ovnilabs is my first port of call if I want an opinion on a compressor I haven't had a go on, or even if I want a second opinion on one I have. Bongomania from TB is the chap behind the site, and he definitely knows his onions.

[quote name='Bankai' post='1263600' date='Jun 10 2011, 08:59 AM']You can record multiple tracks, and always have been able to. There is no limit on the amount of channels. All that limits a USB connection is the bandwidth, which is 400mbps I believe.[/quote] No not true, USB suffers in the same way as PATA harddrive drive interfaces in that it requires some CPU and that can become an issue when you start pushing (under certain circumstances not very) hard and you get close to the limit of bandwidth when the CPU is busy.

[quote name='Oggy' post='1262357' date='Jun 9 2011, 10:01 AM']Loads of interesing solutions and advice given on this subject so far, thanks to everyone who's taken the time to reply, it's going to take a wee bit of time to get to grips with it all. Thinking about all this last night in bed - as you do . Eureka, I’m pretty certain that I know what I’m looking for now on the Hardware front – probably doesn’t exist but here goes (enlighten me please). [b]Portable recorder (Main Basic Features)[/b] 4 – 8 inputs (vox mic. / guitar / drums etc.) Volume knob / slider for each input with indicator to control / monitor input level, just so you know that it's recording and not cliping. Each individual input track recorder as separate .WAV file onto memory card in unit. USB interface from unit to computer that would allow pick up and drop of individual track .WAV files from memory card in unit to either a ‘project folder’ on the computer or direct drop into timeline track in Audio software program the on computer. Effects, mixing facility, playback, monitoring – who cares, could do all that stuff in the Audio software program on the computer, I think - perhaps / maybe? Power – Mains, batteries, PSU brick, steam – who cares. So, it’s [b]not a portable recording studio[/b], it’s a multi track portable recording device without all the software bells and whistles - they exist in the Audio editing computer program. Any ideas?? Oggy [/quote] Easy a [url="http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/products/r16/"]Zoom R16[/url] or [url="http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/products/r24/"]R24[/url] Ticks all your boxes.

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1263074' date='Jun 9 2011, 06:55 PM']I think he's compressed the wife! BTW when I said I found it took away from my dynamics, I was trying to do what the OP was wanting one for & to get it to have that much effect to try & raise/flatten the notes is going to kill a lot of the dynamics (that's basically what he's trying to achieve in a way I suppose). & they was all sub £150 comps that I was using.[/quote] nope, she's having a nap Like I said if you are trying to judge it by ear alone then when you really hear he difference solo'ed you'll be squashing the hell out of it all the time, which will sound poo. Set the attack wrong and you really hear whats going on too obviously, set the release wrong and you can get pumping (which is too obvious) dont have a limiter and you cant control the peaks you've let through so that you cant hear how much the compressor is now working. My Compounder cost me 250-ish off ebay IIRC, I haven't found one cheaper that dos the job really very well yet. Having said that silverfoxnic has a nifty dbx desktop jobbie that cost peanuts and was really usable, so keep a look out for those! Don't think it had a limiter built in though IIRC. As with all things its the settings as much as the item of kit.

I disagree about the software always reaching up to the power of the machines. Some software is incredibly lightweight, I know I bang on about Reaper, but one of the main reasons it is so good is that it is ridiculously lightweight compared to the likes of protools and logic. I agree with Bilbo completely, these days the limitations are more than ever the knowledge of the engineer involved. really, not a lot has actually changed in mic design, Heil implemented some neat designs using neodymium magnets which are fantastic, but I cant think of a huge amount else. The old Neuman mics are still the benchmark for a lot of uses, Cole ribbons are pretty unbeatable etc etc Mic placement and understanding gain staging are key, as is a thoroughly in depth understanding of how any effects can be used to get certain results. We are left with a situation where anyone can own the kit (decent PC and £25 worth of software, an interface and [url="http://www.red5audio.com/"]some really good cheap mics[/url] ) to capture sound, if the only knew how and what to do with it. What you don't have readily available is a great sounding properly treated room to do it in, and the knowledge of how to do it. That is really what separates the good studios from the amateurs IMO.

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' post='1263105' date='Jun 9 2011, 07:18 PM']In part it's due to the circle of expanding possibilities. Computers become more powerful and then programmers take advantage, so computers have to become more powerful again. And so on. The increase in recording bit rate seen over the years puts more stress on hard disk and processor performance, the demands of ever more realistic or powerful plug-ins and effects all take their toll, and it adds up. Oh bugger I think 51m0n is about to answer and show me up. [/quote] Not at all mate!

Nah mate, the games changed completely in that time. Back then you would be lucky to record more than 4 tracks at a time (really not demo kit to do 8 tracks) A dedicated machine means you can tailor it to get latency right the way down to under 3 or 4 ms, which is nice, and keep it there. What you could do on mix down was incredibly limited, CPU's could only handle a couple of plugins etc etc, hard drives were smaller and slower, and 32bit OS meant you could only address <3GB of RAM in your wildest dreams. Now a decent laptop can certainly handle a complex mixdown. The issue is still the tracking. You need a FAST harddrive (or RAID array), which you wont find IN a laptop (speeds over 5400rpm are unheard of in laptops, since they use up the battery so fast). USB cant handle the throughput required either (1.0, 2.0 or 3.0) you therefore need an eSATA port. That limits your choice significantly for a start. I'm seriously considering something [url="http://www.dabs.com/products/hp-probook-4520s-i5-480m-320-4-pr-7CWM.html?refs=466480000-51340000-22"]like[/url] this myself... If you want to multitrack you need a full feature fullspec interface (try looking on the [url="http://www.rme-audio.de/en_index.php"]RME site[/url]). If you can get away with piecemeal tracking (ie not more than 4 tracks at a time) you can easily produce release quality (never mind demo quality) tracks given the time and knowledge. The first two tracks on [url="http://www.invisiblelandscapes.co.uk/lh_music.html"]this page[/url] were tracked on a zoom H4n (for the drums) and indivual pieced together after the fact with a simple 2 channel m-audio interface into a mac book. Mix down was on a 4 year old bog standard bottom of the range Dell office PC.

I've got very very close to some of Nigel's bass playing over the last few weeks. He's absolutely right, it's all really simple stuff. It's also some of the hardest stuff to create that I've ever heard. He plays exactly what the song needed, even if the song didn't know it yet. Classic parts, with real empathy for the musical whole and massive space for everyone else to shine. Silly s*d worrying about his musicality, he is one of the most musical players I've ever heard.

[quote name='silddx' post='1263015' date='Jun 9 2011, 06:07 PM']Oi! You! Get back to your honeymoon!! Hope you had a fantastic day mate! I've left you well alone so you get some peace from all the music, and I find you on here talking about compressors again! Go away and drink wine with your wife [/quote] Amazing day mate, hottest day of the year so far, lovely food, lovely friends and family, lovely ceremony and lovely car! I am left with an abundance of wine however (it was too hot a day for heavy drinking) and have momentarily stopped drinking it. I shall get right back to it at once

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1262098' date='Jun 8 2011, 11:31 PM']I don't disagree with the thrust of Simon's comments on this thread, but as a soundman I have frequently used a compressor to even out playing due to a dodgy technique, especially for those types of bands that pogo around shouting like mentalists when they play. For that I use much faster attack/release times, and a threshold of around 4:1 with a soft knee set so it's just biting on a slightly quieter than average note. Not perfect and decent technique is preferable but it does save the day sometimes.[/quote] I wasn't trying to say a compressor wont even things out some, I was saying it will neither completely remove all dynamic expression, nor hide bad technique. As you say it will even out over abusive dynamics, but at the expense of showing up any poor technical limitation the player has. I constantly use a compressor to even things out in mixes and live, but the more work you make the compressor do the more artefacts it leaves, the more obvious it gets. This can be great, or it can be pants, depends on the player and the musical setting. You are setting up a compressor to try and take out the peaks as quickly as possible when someone gets over exuberant, you may find a limiter for the peaks and lengthening your attack gives an even more natural sound when the player isnt going mental. If they even care , lets face it punk as often as not has a dynamic range between in your face and total annihilation. I think we are saying the same thing really

[quote name='bassbluestew' post='1260774' date='Jun 8 2011, 09:28 AM']SIMON - how do you rate the built in compressors on the TC amps? I'm not sure they have limiters built in too. Your post made very good sense regarding only using compressors and limiters together, first time I have heard that. Must do more research. S for Stewart - not Softie[/quote] TC built in compressors are their three band jobbies aren't they. I've only had a 30 minute play with one of their heads, TC450, and certainly didnt get to real extent that you can muck about with the compressor beyond its simplest settings (like, on, and how on you want it I think). Its a pretty good effort at a transparent multiband digital compressor, but the metering was pretty nonexistent (as far as I could tell), which makes it very very hard to know whats going on really. Multiband compressors need meters for each individual band, that takes up masses of real estate on the facia which just is not available on those amps. Dont know if they have any kind of limiter built in either, they certainly might have though. Do they work? Yes, can you tell how hard they are working? Not easily!