51m0n

I saw them (nearly) in 1974 at Withdean Stadium in Brighton The whole natural amphitheatre of the place was covered in kids sat with mums and dads. The Wombles wombled on out, got about halfway down the middle of the atheltics 'field' (the pitch as used by Brighton and Hove Albion for the last few years). They all looked very happy, waving at us on the surrounding grassy hillocks. As one there was a moaning squeeling roar of delight from the yoof who were present as we all rose to our feet and ran pell mell at them, dunno why we did, but we did, just trying to get some Madame Cholet fur to show our mates at school or something. Honestly it was like a feral tidal wave of kids with the destructive power of 3000 of the little buggers, or one Japanese tidal wave. The poor sods in their suits did what any of us would do in the same situation nowadays, they turned as one and ran howling back into their dressing room under the stand (the one that had Zoo on it from the days when Withdean Stadium was actually Brighton Zoo). Happy days!!

What make and model device is it exactly? Unless you put your system under very heavy load while recording (ie playing back a complex mix during overdubbing with a lod of vsts on all the channels etc etc) there is no reason to that USB2 would nopt manage to record 8 tracks at once. An i5 processor should be fine with a reasonably well configured system. But what is the device in question....

I mix almost exclusively on cans, and master on very large floorstanders. My mixes never suffer from a lack of bass....

Get GOOD cans. Get either [url="http://www.112db.com/redline/monitor/"]112dB monitor VST[/url] or something similar - focusrite bundle something like this with their interfaces. It mixes in some of the left to the right channel and vice versa, iut does a few other things as well. Mix with this as the last effect in the stereo master buss. Remove before rendering the mix. Buyrn a cd and listen on speakers. OR get some Behringer truth monitors, the big active ones, they are far better than they have any right to be for the money, and search on gearslutz for tips on sorting out your room acoustics - basstraps, broadband absorbers and a a cloud all come to moind. Because it really doesnt matter how good your monitors are if the room is acoustically gash then your mixes will not translate to other playback devices and situations.

He did some of Stings stuff. He's superb....

Good mastering engineers cost a fair chunk of change, look at least £250 for a 60 minute album. More for CD pressing and artwork, glass master yada yada yada.... A gash mix is a gash mix, its crap, it could be levels, compression, eq, stereo field, anything.... [url="http://www.wesonator.co.uk/"]Wes Maebe[/url] is no mean mastering engineer.

Get it mastered elsewhere if you are serious. A really top mastering engineer may send it back if the mix is gash, with some suggestions as to how to improve it. A good mastering engineer will get more out of it than you can imagine, and have the kit, experience and ears to make it better than you could imagine.

If you want a super simple crystal clear box then the TC Electronics NDY-1 Nova Dynamics would be great, it has a 3 band compressor designed to be transparent.

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1264133' date='Jun 10 2011, 04:51 PM']Sure. I think with those types of live bands though, the other artefacts are pretty effectively hidden by the rest of the band! It's the odd notes jumping out and others disappearing that are what an audience will pick up on, and where the compressor does compensate effectively for poor technique. It's never going to work in a jazz settingof course. The most audible aspect of poor technique to be highlighted by compressors is inadequate muting IME.[/quote] Agreed! Esp the muting (and fret noise w. newer strings). A well set up transparent compressor can work wonders in a jazz setting though. As a very very general rule of thumb I find that lower ratios with lower thresholds are often more transparent than higher ratios with higher thresholds, when achieving the same dB of gain reduction. Not always the case though....

[quote name='PauBass' post='1264099' date='Jun 10 2011, 04:27 PM']51m0n very helpful info, thanks! Quick question, have you had a chance to try the Aguilar TLC? [url="http://www.aguilaramp.com/products_tlc_compressor.htm"]http://www.aguilaramp.com/products_tlc_compressor.htm[/url] If so what's your opinion? What would you consider to be a good setting with those controls?[/quote] I've not had the pleasure, but it ticks a lot of boxes, not all the controls I'd hope for and no metering (can't think of many or any stompboxes that do). I would expect it to be a decent bit of kit. I'd also try the Markbass Compressore and the JoeMeek FloorQ if you want a full featured stompbox compressor. [quote name='73Jazz' post='1264464' date='Jun 10 2011, 10:39 PM']here is a really good overview of nearly every comp..the reviewer knows his stuff as well..you may take a read and find some answers or suggestions [url="http://www.ovnilab.com/"]Ovnilab[/url][/quote] Yup, ovnilabs is my first port of call if I want an opinion on a compressor I haven't had a go on, or even if I want a second opinion on one I have. Bongomania from TB is the chap behind the site, and he definitely knows his onions.

[quote name='Bankai' post='1263600' date='Jun 10 2011, 08:59 AM']You can record multiple tracks, and always have been able to. There is no limit on the amount of channels. All that limits a USB connection is the bandwidth, which is 400mbps I believe.[/quote] No not true, USB suffers in the same way as PATA harddrive drive interfaces in that it requires some CPU and that can become an issue when you start pushing (under certain circumstances not very) hard and you get close to the limit of bandwidth when the CPU is busy.

[quote name='Oggy' post='1262357' date='Jun 9 2011, 10:01 AM']Loads of interesing solutions and advice given on this subject so far, thanks to everyone who's taken the time to reply, it's going to take a wee bit of time to get to grips with it all. Thinking about all this last night in bed - as you do . Eureka, I’m pretty certain that I know what I’m looking for now on the Hardware front – probably doesn’t exist but here goes (enlighten me please). [b]Portable recorder (Main Basic Features)[/b] 4 – 8 inputs (vox mic. / guitar / drums etc.) Volume knob / slider for each input with indicator to control / monitor input level, just so you know that it's recording and not cliping. Each individual input track recorder as separate .WAV file onto memory card in unit. USB interface from unit to computer that would allow pick up and drop of individual track .WAV files from memory card in unit to either a ‘project folder’ on the computer or direct drop into timeline track in Audio software program the on computer. Effects, mixing facility, playback, monitoring – who cares, could do all that stuff in the Audio software program on the computer, I think - perhaps / maybe? Power – Mains, batteries, PSU brick, steam – who cares. So, it’s [b]not a portable recording studio[/b], it’s a multi track portable recording device without all the software bells and whistles - they exist in the Audio editing computer program. Any ideas?? Oggy [/quote] Easy a [url="http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/products/r16/"]Zoom R16[/url] or [url="http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/products/r24/"]R24[/url] Ticks all your boxes.

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1263074' date='Jun 9 2011, 06:55 PM']I think he's compressed the wife! BTW when I said I found it took away from my dynamics, I was trying to do what the OP was wanting one for & to get it to have that much effect to try & raise/flatten the notes is going to kill a lot of the dynamics (that's basically what he's trying to achieve in a way I suppose). & they was all sub £150 comps that I was using.[/quote] nope, she's having a nap Like I said if you are trying to judge it by ear alone then when you really hear he difference solo'ed you'll be squashing the hell out of it all the time, which will sound poo. Set the attack wrong and you really hear whats going on too obviously, set the release wrong and you can get pumping (which is too obvious) dont have a limiter and you cant control the peaks you've let through so that you cant hear how much the compressor is now working. My Compounder cost me 250-ish off ebay IIRC, I haven't found one cheaper that dos the job really very well yet. Having said that silverfoxnic has a nifty dbx desktop jobbie that cost peanuts and was really usable, so keep a look out for those! Don't think it had a limiter built in though IIRC. As with all things its the settings as much as the item of kit.

I disagree about the software always reaching up to the power of the machines. Some software is incredibly lightweight, I know I bang on about Reaper, but one of the main reasons it is so good is that it is ridiculously lightweight compared to the likes of protools and logic. I agree with Bilbo completely, these days the limitations are more than ever the knowledge of the engineer involved. really, not a lot has actually changed in mic design, Heil implemented some neat designs using neodymium magnets which are fantastic, but I cant think of a huge amount else. The old Neuman mics are still the benchmark for a lot of uses, Cole ribbons are pretty unbeatable etc etc Mic placement and understanding gain staging are key, as is a thoroughly in depth understanding of how any effects can be used to get certain results. We are left with a situation where anyone can own the kit (decent PC and £25 worth of software, an interface and [url="http://www.red5audio.com/"]some really good cheap mics[/url] ) to capture sound, if the only knew how and what to do with it. What you don't have readily available is a great sounding properly treated room to do it in, and the knowledge of how to do it. That is really what separates the good studios from the amateurs IMO.

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' post='1263105' date='Jun 9 2011, 07:18 PM']In part it's due to the circle of expanding possibilities. Computers become more powerful and then programmers take advantage, so computers have to become more powerful again. And so on. The increase in recording bit rate seen over the years puts more stress on hard disk and processor performance, the demands of ever more realistic or powerful plug-ins and effects all take their toll, and it adds up. Oh bugger I think 51m0n is about to answer and show me up. [/quote] Not at all mate!

Nah mate, the games changed completely in that time. Back then you would be lucky to record more than 4 tracks at a time (really not demo kit to do 8 tracks) A dedicated machine means you can tailor it to get latency right the way down to under 3 or 4 ms, which is nice, and keep it there. What you could do on mix down was incredibly limited, CPU's could only handle a couple of plugins etc etc, hard drives were smaller and slower, and 32bit OS meant you could only address <3GB of RAM in your wildest dreams. Now a decent laptop can certainly handle a complex mixdown. The issue is still the tracking. You need a FAST harddrive (or RAID array), which you wont find IN a laptop (speeds over 5400rpm are unheard of in laptops, since they use up the battery so fast). USB cant handle the throughput required either (1.0, 2.0 or 3.0) you therefore need an eSATA port. That limits your choice significantly for a start. I'm seriously considering something [url="http://www.dabs.com/products/hp-probook-4520s-i5-480m-320-4-pr-7CWM.html?refs=466480000-51340000-22"]like[/url] this myself... If you want to multitrack you need a full feature fullspec interface (try looking on the [url="http://www.rme-audio.de/en_index.php"]RME site[/url]). If you can get away with piecemeal tracking (ie not more than 4 tracks at a time) you can easily produce release quality (never mind demo quality) tracks given the time and knowledge. The first two tracks on [url="http://www.invisiblelandscapes.co.uk/lh_music.html"]this page[/url] were tracked on a zoom H4n (for the drums) and indivual pieced together after the fact with a simple 2 channel m-audio interface into a mac book. Mix down was on a 4 year old bog standard bottom of the range Dell office PC.

I've got very very close to some of Nigel's bass playing over the last few weeks. He's absolutely right, it's all really simple stuff. It's also some of the hardest stuff to create that I've ever heard. He plays exactly what the song needed, even if the song didn't know it yet. Classic parts, with real empathy for the musical whole and massive space for everyone else to shine. Silly s*d worrying about his musicality, he is one of the most musical players I've ever heard.

[quote name='silddx' post='1263015' date='Jun 9 2011, 06:07 PM']Oi! You! Get back to your honeymoon!! Hope you had a fantastic day mate! I've left you well alone so you get some peace from all the music, and I find you on here talking about compressors again! Go away and drink wine with your wife [/quote] Amazing day mate, hottest day of the year so far, lovely food, lovely friends and family, lovely ceremony and lovely car! I am left with an abundance of wine however (it was too hot a day for heavy drinking) and have momentarily stopped drinking it. I shall get right back to it at once

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1262098' date='Jun 8 2011, 11:31 PM']I don't disagree with the thrust of Simon's comments on this thread, but as a soundman I have frequently used a compressor to even out playing due to a dodgy technique, especially for those types of bands that pogo around shouting like mentalists when they play. For that I use much faster attack/release times, and a threshold of around 4:1 with a soft knee set so it's just biting on a slightly quieter than average note. Not perfect and decent technique is preferable but it does save the day sometimes.[/quote] I wasn't trying to say a compressor wont even things out some, I was saying it will neither completely remove all dynamic expression, nor hide bad technique. As you say it will even out over abusive dynamics, but at the expense of showing up any poor technical limitation the player has. I constantly use a compressor to even things out in mixes and live, but the more work you make the compressor do the more artefacts it leaves, the more obvious it gets. This can be great, or it can be pants, depends on the player and the musical setting. You are setting up a compressor to try and take out the peaks as quickly as possible when someone gets over exuberant, you may find a limiter for the peaks and lengthening your attack gives an even more natural sound when the player isnt going mental. If they even care , lets face it punk as often as not has a dynamic range between in your face and total annihilation. I think we are saying the same thing really

[quote name='bassbluestew' post='1260774' date='Jun 8 2011, 09:28 AM']SIMON - how do you rate the built in compressors on the TC amps? I'm not sure they have limiters built in too. Your post made very good sense regarding only using compressors and limiters together, first time I have heard that. Must do more research. S for Stewart - not Softie[/quote] TC built in compressors are their three band jobbies aren't they. I've only had a 30 minute play with one of their heads, TC450, and certainly didnt get to real extent that you can muck about with the compressor beyond its simplest settings (like, on, and how on you want it I think). Its a pretty good effort at a transparent multiband digital compressor, but the metering was pretty nonexistent (as far as I could tell), which makes it very very hard to know whats going on really. Multiband compressors need meters for each individual band, that takes up masses of real estate on the facia which just is not available on those amps. Dont know if they have any kind of limiter built in either, they certainly might have though. Do they work? Yes, can you tell how hard they are working? Not easily!

Or you could use the search functionality [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=139947"]LINK[/url]

Reaper.... <runs and hides>

[quote name='risingson' post='1260569' date='Jun 8 2011, 12:21 AM']Can we sticky your posts somewhere? I really do think stuff like this will help people understand more about how compression and limiting works outside the sea of misinformation that gets bandied around on the internet![/quote] Where did the embarrassed smiley go! Yeah it would be a good idea to get the compressor thing stickied, would save on typing and make looking up the relevant posts a whole lot easier. Just glad to be able to help

[quote name='jonunders' post='1259903' date='Jun 7 2011, 04:48 PM']Hi, I ues a G&L 2500 through a Markbass lm111 and a bareface compact. I am approaching my first gig and it has been suggested trying a compressor in the system to soffen out the peaks and troughs which appear in my playing, i may get a bit excited. Is this a good or bad thing or will my money be waisted. Having looked on line, which ones, sub £100 are any good and which ones should be avoided. Thanks Jonathan[/quote] Personally I'd say save up something closer the £250 mark as an absolute minimum for a serious compressor. Or get something cheap with all the controls (threshold, ratio, attack, release, make-up gain, knee) and good metering of input, output and gain reduction so you can learn how this effect works, and how to set it up before you go anywhere near a gig with one. If you don't you will only make matters worse. Until then leave the compression to the sound engineers, and work on your techinque.

Can I point something out to all those here who have some belief that a compressor will remove all dynamics and render your playing lifeless, and equally to all those here who believe it will eradicate any kind of bad technique. You are all wrong. Really really utterly misguided and proof beyond any doubt that you don't really know how a compressor works compared to a limiter say, how it can and should be used in a live context and have not ever used a serious compressor to achieve any specific goal. In which case, don't buy a compressor a few days before a gig, and expect it to work miracles. A compressor, unless set up to completely extreme settings of either threshold or ratio or both, will not either iron out all the dynamics, or render poor technique unnoticeable. Set up properly a compressor is pretty near transparent. By which it is meant that you cannot hear it in operation. You can measure it, you can hear it in the context of a mix, but you actually cant hear it soloed unless you really know what you are doing. Set up properly a compressor can achieve 6dB of compression and you can't feel it when you play, you can't hear it when you listen, yet your quiet signal is 4 times louder than it was. 4 times louder compared to you loudest signal. Or to put it another way, your average RMS level is increased by around 3dB. This is HUGE. You cant feel it though, when you dig in you still perceive the louder note as louder, as a result of the change in the transient, the amount of treble and the decay of thee note. Its all still is there to hear, the compressor will not magic that away. If it is set up right. Any crappiness in your technique will be made far more obvious. Any dodginess in your groove, any excessive fret noise, any bum notes will be made as loud as can be, and will be heard. By everyone in the audience. DO NOT BUY A COMPRESSOR IF YOUR TECHNIQUE IS NOT SORTED ALREADY!!!! Next point, a compressor without a limiter as well is nigh on useless in a live context. You need to set up a compressor to allow the leading edge of the transient to pass, so the attack must be fairly long (say 100ms), otherwise you will rapidly lose those all important clues to the nature of the attack that psycho-acoustically fool you into hearing the dynamics perfectly. This long attack allows the transient to be uncompressed, but the makeup gain you set to raise you overall level also takes up the level of the peak. Without a separate limiter after the compressor you cant stop the most over exuberant peaks from clipping your rig. So you cant get the most out of your compressor. A limiter is different from a compressor, not in what it does, but in the way it is designed to do it. Both devices prevent signal over a set level (threshold) from increasing in volume by their natural amount. A compressor may sniff signal over several tens of milliseconds to determine if the level has crossed the threshold, a limiter may do this over several nanoseconds. So the limiter is all about the peaks, a compressor is more concerned with the averages. A limiter attack setting may be measured up to a millisecond or 10, a compressor attack is typical from 10 ms up to as much as 500ms. Again limiters catch peaks. A limiter will have a ratio near infinity to 1, certainly no less than 10 to 1, a compressor will have a ratio settable from 1:1 to 20:1 typically, some go higher. Compressor are far more gentle devices. A limiter has a threshold set less than a dB from maximum a compressor can be set with a threshold as low as 40dB from maximum and still be useful. I typically set up my compressor with an attack time of around 80 to 120 ms, a ratio of as little as 1.4:1 and a low low threshold. The release is usually around 100ms to 200ms, sometimes less. I aim to get around 6dB of gain reduction, I use the makeup gain to add this in to my level. I turn the compressor off and set the limiter so it just lights up when the loudest peaks come in, then turn the compressor back on. I then have transparent compression that adds some punch and keeps disparate techniques at a similar output volume from the speaker. Yet I still have total dynamic control. The issue I have to deal with with this set up is that if I make a mistake everyone can hear it.