51m0n

When you say "you recorded a band the other night" its important to understnad what that means. Did you take a long a decent 2 track recording machine and capture their live sound warts and all? Did you take a long a multitrack mahine and capture them playing as a band so that you could mix it later and make a great sounding demo for them? Were you considered responsible for any more than the technical recording? In other words was the idea just that you turn up and 'run the board' during tracvking, or were you supposed to be telling them if it was a good take? You see if you are in some way helping produce this then to a certina extent you should have been trying to guide them where they played a ropey take during tracking IMO. If on the other hand you were just there to capture the noise they made then the band/band leader was making that call. Either way though you need to get the mix to them asap do all the stuff you wuold do to make it sound clear and well produced, and expose the truth about their playing. Then they will hear for themselves and if they are any good they will ask questions about their performance, not your recording ability....

I've commented on a few bits and bobs here and there, but unless people really are saying "How can I make this better?" then how do say to them, "I think it would be better if..." without feeling like you might hurt their feelings? Put this another way, I am currently mixing a very very good friend's tracks that we have recorded together. He has brilliant ears, really hears things with scary detail from an engineers perspective, he can comment on a mix with real authority, he can pick out precise frequency ranges in a snare drum that are bothering him for instance, or notice a delay line that may be set a little too long. We have known each other for years, and effectively speak the same language with regard to audio. We trust each other's opinions pretty much completely, and if we disagree we usually find that after further explanation we can get to a compromise pretty quickly, or more likely we didnt manage to communicate the problem well enough in the first place, and are actually agreeing, but with the wrong terminology (yes even though we speak the same language wrt audio). And yet, mixing his band has been hard. Its all being done remotely, so I have to wait for his comments on a mix, then take them on board and try and either fit them in to the mix, or argue the point (when I really think he's missed something). I would find it very hard to find fault in the band's efforts, and even harder to be detrimental about some aspect of the playing, fortunately its been tracked really well, so I havent had to make comments there, and they have a very self deprecating British view of their abilities (totally unfounded). Also helps that they really are seeking perfection from their point of view, and anything I've heard has been checked over many times already. On the plus side the results so far have blown him and his band away completely, can't wait to get it finished! The reason I am mixing it and not him, is because he trusts my ability to make the tools get the results he wants, more than his own ability. Yet he can define the results he wants incredibly well. Its a hell of an endorsement, and no small responsibility to be honest... If I didnt know someone at all, and they weren't paying for my honest opinion, I really wouldn't want to comment, unless they were really open to comment other than the usual "Sounds great, you'll be a star!" which I sometimes think we are all a bit guilty of hoping to hear when we post something. I've tried to help a few people out with some bits and bobs before, and they've all been pretty receptive to anything I've said, but I also dont want to be putting myself forward as some kind of expert either, since there are so many people out there who make my knowledge look pathetically limited IMO.

[quote name='cheddatom' post='1156897' date='Mar 10 2011, 05:05 PM']I think with regards to recording/mixing etc i've had a couple of great discussions as a result of me listening to someone else, or them listening to me. When I had a CD player in my car, i used to download people's tracks at work, burn the onto CD, then listen on my way home. That way I didn't have to log into BC at home. I would only ever comment if I thought it was really good, or if I thought I had a decent opinion to add. I don't have a CD player any more so I don't do it. I go on the muse messageboard, and there's a "plug your own band" thread on there. I try to listen to as many as possible when I get a day off, but I would only comment on 1/10 of what I listen to, because the other 9/10 is either sh*t or just not my thing. EDIT: A great example, I uploaded a song I was working on as I wanted comments on the drum sounds. This prompted 5imon to reply with some very helpful comments, that lead to a long conversation about recording/mixing which taught me a hell of a lot (anyone can learn from 5imon!!!).[/quote] Awww shucks dude!

[quote name='Toasted' post='1153643' date='Mar 8 2011, 12:09 PM']Bassic cables from forumite OBBM. I dont know why anyone would buy anything else. [url="http://www.bassic-bits.co.uk/"]http://www.bassic-bits.co.uk/[/url][/quote] [size=5]+1[/size]

SHould be fine for bedroom use. Just not bedroom use up aginast a drummer on full chat )

I think you would do well to reconsider recording on computers for a moment. You have two seperate tasks to achieve. Firstly tracking, secondly mixing. In the dim and distant past the two at the level we are talking about happened in a project studio onto tape (or adat). A more homegrown approach was the old 4 or 8 track tape. That was what consumers could hope to achieve. At the same time, going back ad infinitum the 'big boys' have enjoyed all sorts of location recording with full on broadcast style trucks (I know the Quo used to do a lot of recording at Stanbridge Farm using their own broadcast truck for instance, Bob told me all about the trouble they had getting it up the lane!). These days you can use a computer for recording, but all laptops are significantly less powerful than desktops to this day, and whilst they are fine for recording and mixing in a very limited process (ie not too many tracks at a time) lappies and all the assorted guff required for recording (interfaces etc) arent really very good for recording or mixing with out a hardware interface (IMO). I would really really suggest you stick to a PC if thats what you prefer (I've seen macs go wrong enough times to know that they definitely can give as much grief as a PC), go over to Reaper (if nothing else because it is far more lightweight on your machine) and mix with that. When it comes to tracking though you need a device to capture sound and record it as wavs as well as possible for the money, and I still reckon the Zoom kit hits the mark, I'd suggest you consider a pair of R16s for tracking then mix down on the PC in a DAW, file transfer is a snip, whats not to like?

Is it active? Battery? Just a thought... Not sure what you mean by flat exactly. Lacking in zinginess? Make sure the VLE is fully anticlockwise.

Latest Lines Horizontal mixes I've been working on.... Sounding pretty mean too if I do say so myself

Cheers!

[quote name='Toasted' post='1148647' date='Mar 3 2011, 05:41 PM']If it works I don't care what it costs. You've seen the price of my other gear so you know I have the means and I'm not afraid to use them... [/quote] Oh mate, you really shouldnt say that, not ever:- [url="http://www.gear4music.com/Recording-and-Computers/Universal-Audio-1176-LN-Peak-Limiter/73T"]UA 1176 LN[/url] is the daddy of studio limiters. Yours for a mere £1725. It will work though, better sounding than almost anything else you care to try too...

[quote name='Toasted' post='1148236' date='Mar 3 2011, 12:06 PM']Could anyone suggest a unit to fulfill this role? Best, Joe.[/quote] What is the budget (realistically)?

[b]Compression 101[/b] (ish) - or "The pestering has paid off".... Compression need not kill your highs, nor your attack, or lead to tone suck or mud, or be inaudible (although it can be inaudible and still work). You dont need a dual or multi-band compressor to do this (although it can be a mighty tool indeed in the right hands), and they can lead to overcomplication in my view (note the [i]can[/i], all you exponents of multiband compression). The keys to getting a compressor to work for you are, understanding what you are trying to achieve before you start, having the controls on the front of the compressor to achieve those goals, or being lucky enough to have a less tweakable device where the parameters you cant tweak are exactly right to meet your needs - doens thappen very much. First thing is to get a decent enough compressor to do the job. IMO you are best served with a comrpessor with all the controls (preferably with the right names on too), silverfoxnik's dbx is a great little table top unit, Joe Meek do a floor compressor with all the controls on (although they are named wrong, slope is ratio, compression is threshold), the Markbass pedal is the real deal too. Live you cn get away with a noisier unit, but you dont have to. IMO its really worth getting a rack unit (and a good one too) but if you cant, you cant. The reason is as much about what the metering on a rack compressor will tell you, and without it you wont be able to tell what the hell you're doing. You need to see the input level (needs to be enough and not too much or the unit wont be able to work properly), the amount of compression going on at any goven moment (you wont be able to hear much less than 6dB pf compression with a lot of settings), and the output (so you can get the level the same with the device on or bypass). And a single LED or 3 for eacjh of these is anadequate. Next, to really get the most out of a compressor you absolutely need a limiter as well. And I've never seen a compressor pedal with a limiter as well. So you want to change something and you think a compressor may help? Listen to your bass sound, ask yourself this, does the attack transient of the note vastly outweigh the bit if the note just after, is the level just all over up and down when you play? Is it that some strings a re louder than others (look at pickup heights and string gauges before getting a comrpessor in this case - then get a compressor if that doesnt fix it). Do you want to make your sound smoother (think tube amps, R&B phaaat bass sounds etc etc) or really groinky and agressive (Ramones, Stranglers) or thick and punchy as heell (Tony Levin anyone)? Do you play fast or slow mainly? Is your bass active or passive, do you change eq settings on your bass through a gig, what about pickup settings? All of these effect the settings you will need for a live compressor set up. Really! In a band setting if you can lift your average volume through the length of a note by even 2dB you will make a huge difference to how much you are heard. 3dB even more so. I am not talking about turning up your amp to twice the volume, I am talking about getting the sound from the bass to not decay in the same way, to increas the volume of the end of the note, to lessen the rate of decay of the note. Even across milliseconds of time this can make a significant difference in the audibility of your sound in a mix. Why? Because you are fighting against the big bad kick drum and the nasty snappy snare drum, and they are very voud for a very short time. And you play intime with them.... Compressor basics:- Ratio and Threshold TOGETHER determine the amount of compression. A low ratio and a very low threshold results in the same amount of compression as a higher ratio and higher threshold, but it will often be less audible. Aim to get a solid 3dB of compression going on to begin with (you may not even really hear this) Make up gain, use this to bring your compression level up to unity with no compression, switch the compressor in and out whilst you adjyst. Any time you change the ratio and threshold you need to fiddle with this. Attack determines how much of the initial transient comes through by delaying the compression - start off with it pretty open (at least halfway up the dial) whilst playing with the threshold ratio combo, then close it down until you hear it choppni ght eattack of thenote down. Now we have a stylistic/taste decision - if you want to be super smooth set it really short (note that too short may bring in some nasty distortion artifacts), if you want to be super aggressive open it up, BUT if you open up the attack with a big bunch of compression the make up gain is going to send the transient through the roof, watch your output level! This is why we need a limiter to control the attack too.... Release, determines how fast the compressor disengages. In order to allow the attack of the next note through the compressor must have disengaged, if you play fast and want a big attack then you need it to disengage quickly. Watch for pumping or distortion artifact sif it si too fast. If it is too slow you wont hear the attack on the next note. Start of with a couple of hundred ms and play with it from there. Knee - a soft knee compressor comes up to the ratio you set over a couple or 3dB below the threshold level, they sound far less obvious than a hard knee compressor, which may, or may not, be what you want. Practice setting all kinds of different sounds and learn what they controls do, run music through it not just bass and set up the controls on full mixes, just to learn what it does better. Train your ears to hear the compressor and setting it up becomes trivial, and then you get heard, win the best gigs, and all the lovely ladies will want to get to know you.... Simples!

I wouldnt lend me kit to any but the closest of friends . If you have to I would suggest a rackmount limiter with a good bypass mounted in the back of your rack and set up to absolutely limit the crap out of any signal level you dont want to go over. Effectively putting a hard limit on the gain control of the amp. You can easily defeat it when you play, but a good limiter set up right shouldnt cause you any issues. That will also help save cabs. Cant save you from them turning up the volume though.... I would point out that if they want to use your rig you need a grand up front. As a deposit against the damage they will cause in their ignorance. In cash. And the use of their girlfriend if you feel the urge. If they dont like those terms then have their car/van keys off them. If the promoter or band cant cope with this then take a very very cheap nasty combo and put it on top of your rig. Take your fuses with you at the end of the soundcheck, and plug them into the crap rig. I may be verging on the Ghegis Khan approach to gear loaning, but I've not had to pay a bean out to repair anything simce I took up this attitude....

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1144262' date='Feb 28 2011, 10:55 AM']The only thing I don't really agree on is how much depth you'll get from speaker size. It's really to do with the cab design more than how big a cone is.[/quote] [size=5]+1[/size] If you take nothiung else away from this thread take that. Plux's Bergantino HT210 is ever so slightly bigger than his HT115, all else being pretty much equal between the cabs. The 210 goes a bit deeper than the 115. No surprise there.

[quote name='urb' post='1136386' date='Feb 21 2011, 10:04 PM']Thanks man - great info/advice - I guess I should look into a SS comp and or DI - so what's a good one? I can't justify spending more than £200-£150 - are there any good ones? I've been thinking about it for a while - I don't use a DI generally and just go direct into my Mackie Onyx soundcard - the level is usually fine from the bass, so I'm not really conderned about that, so will a sansamp or mark bass DI or similar give a noticeable improvement in depth of tone/resonance? Any thoughts on this welcome - thanks in advance M[/quote] I got my Compounder for under £200 on Evilbay. Had to be patient though, then three came along and I got the middle one for a bargain. A lot of people swear by Radial DI boxes, but they arent cheap.

[quote name='Rimskidog' post='1142055' date='Feb 26 2011, 07:40 AM']Yup. though even which DI you choose also makes a huge difference. I have about a dozen DI's in my studio but I long ago narrowed my use down to either a creation audio MW1 for super clean and an A Designs Reddi for tubey warmth.[/quote] Stop it, you swine, I'd love a Reddi, but cant get close to justifying the expense!

First point, a lot of engineers really do care. No really. They care about the entire mix, not the bass or the guitar, or the drums alone. OK, they concentrate on the lead vocal, and the song, that is utterly sacrosanct, but the rest is of very equal footing. However, certain genres and lineups demand more or less space is available for the bass, or the guitar ( a lot of funk has guitar so neutered with eq it sounds like a triangle, a lot of metal has the same approach to the bass, Metallica in the Newstead era anyone?) You cant escape this, its what the punters are expecting, its what the band are expecting, its what the sound engineer is expecting. If you have a real need to hear a certain bass soud you have to be there to fight your corner, or the simple fact is the sound will become closer to the approved norm for that genre. What you can not do is take the bass of fthe track and replace it with how ot sounded before. It doesnt work like that, mixing is really a lot harder than that to do, a lot of the interplay within the instrumentation is very finely tuned frequency wise, the transient response of the different instruments is (should be) finely matched up with compressors etc etc. Of course, if you have a result you hate, then you absolutely need to say something, as soon as you can. It will bug you forever otherwise. But dont expect a 5 minute job to fix it, any change to bring more top in from the bass is going to effect the guitars, the kick, the snare, the hats and most importantly the vocals. Which is why the rest of the band as one will jump up and down and say "I cant hear me now!" and want it turned back. I'm afraid the horse has bolted on this one. I would say though, do not make the mistake of blaming the engineer, the rest of the band were there, and they called the shots, he just facilitated the result they wanted, if they had said make the bass more prominent, no go on give it more presence, he would have. Its dead easy to do.They obviously didnt. Of course if he had then their parts would have had to take more of a back seat....

Another amp possibility is a Hartke LH500, very very good bang for the buck, you wont suddenly find you've run out of power with it either. Speakers/cabs are a funny old thing. None of those players mentioned are known for a zingy sound, plenty of bite but back then there were no tweeters in cabs, all paper cone presence. This i simportant, since most of todays cabs come with a tweeter, you want to be sure you can turn it (the tweeter) down if you really want to cop their kind of sound. As for format the world is your oyster, a 115 and a 210, a 212, a 215, a 410, all of these could work, but the difference between two of the same format with different cab (the enclosure itself) design and drivers (the actual speaker unit) even from the same manufacturer can be massive. The short answer is there is no guaranteed short answer. You need to give us some idea of your budget, or we will all just real off our favourite go to expensive super duper brands that we know are very likely to hit the spot. Many of which will be (extremely) expensive! If I were going to budget for a full on gigging rig today I would look for at least 400 or 500 for the amp (way more of lightweight was a must), and at least 600 (more like 800) for the cab(s). But that would be a buy it now and change it in a good few years solution (for me). Thats new prices, second hand you can get some real bargains (especially now). If it were entirely up to me I would get a Barefaced SuperTwelve to go with the LH500, its punchy, loud (very very very loud), easy to transport and sounds great. But I like lightweight cabs, and would rather spend the extra to get one.