51m0n

[quote name='bumfrog' post='476971' date='May 1 2009, 01:11 PM']Please don't take this the wrong way, it's not having a go. But you do sound like an IT guy As in you know exactly what to do and what needs doing, but then you sound (apologies if i'm wrong on this bit) like you are getting frustrated/annoyed with those people who don't have the same knowledge as you. I understand that when you reach a certain level of knowledge as it were that people then tend to start getting anal about stuff, but what tends to happen when people get to that stage is they tend to forget that actually there's quite a lot of people out there who play just for the fun of it, and really aren't that bothered about having the best sound they can as it really doesn't make any difference to them. Yes, I do agree with the sentiments of this thread about how things sound a lot better if people know about eq'ing, using fx properly etc, but to a certain degree, I find that once you start getting obsessed with those things they can get in the way of actually enjoying the playing, if you get my drift. Also purely from a spectators point of view, one can start to let things like that get in the way of actually enjoying the music and performance. Yes, I would love that every gig that I go to have well balanced sound, nicely seperated instruments etc, but that (in my experience) is the exception rather than the rule - as a few people have pointed out, the drummer, I feel, is the benchmark for this. Most gigs I go to, the drummer is too loud, so the sound people can't get the vocals up high enough to be heard over everybody competing with the drummer without it feeding back. I guess all I'm trying to say is to those that get annoyed by these things, watch your heart rate dudes, it's not worth busting a gut over EDIT:- Just out of interest, if anybody has any guides or advice about all of this stuff for live playing, I'd be most appreciative of some guidance [/quote] Yup, I'm in IT. Yup I think I know my stuff in Sound Engineering too. Thanks for noticing. I like to talk to people before they come to a studio and give them enough knowledge to make their time there as productive as possible so that they, and I get the best result. It certainly reflects on me as much as them if the result isn't as good as it could be. If they then don't take on board the advice given then that is [b]definitely[/b] frustrating - think about this, if they play that result to someone who thinks the sound is rubbish and then tell that person where it was recorded, its a very bad advert. Now I don't think anyone I've ever recorded has actually sounded rubbish myself. But it may not be exactly what they wanted and so they may think it could be better. So they will then go through the whole 'Well we wanted it to sound a bit more blah blah blah' to whoever is listening, and that too reflects badly on me and the studio. So actually it does really matter that they take this stuff on board completely because not only will they not get what they want, but I will get a negative response to my work because of it. And that in essence is incredibly frustrating, especially if they didn't do some simple things as requested to help me give them a great result in time and in budget. And all of this can equally be applied to a gig. And no no gig [u]has[/u] to sound rubbish with a bad mix. Not ever. It is a result of:- * poor musicianship * bad decisions regarding tone/fx * poor/broken gear * poor sound engineering * poor preparation * lack of knowledge * more often than not too much volume * poor acoustics (which could in almost all situations be improved, usually quite cheaply) Or a combination of all of the above. You go ahead and carry on getting by and not obsessing for as long as you like, I really don't mind, its entirely your choice. I'll go on my merry way making people I work with sound as good as they possibly can whenever I can, because I love to. The OP was after some tips though. Just the other day a friend of mine came over, and I played him a demo of a track I'd just done with my Squire VMJ fretless. I didn't tell him that track was my band, and he promptly wandered off to make a coffee. When he came back I asked him to listen again and he was sure it was a commercial release not a demo at all. In fact that was why he gone and made coffee in the first place, cos he didn't think what I had played could have been the demo I'd mentioned a few days before. He was staggered at the quality. Thats a tick in the win column in my book...

[quote name='Jean-Luc Pickguard' post='468065' date='Apr 21 2009, 08:03 AM']I don't know if the palatino is any good for arco - might be worth a look. [url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_eub_500_sb_electric_upright.htm"]Thomann sell a rebadged version[/url] for around £320.[/quote] Crikey if that works for arco that might be the answer... Of course all you bods in the now are going to tell me I'm off my loaf at this point aren't you

[quote name='Lifer' post='476907' date='May 1 2009, 12:19 PM']If you're on a public road then you can't be sure there's no-one around. You could be the drifting champion of the world but if someone less 'skilled' than you pulls out (maybe because they can't judge speed) in front while you're 'learning your limits' you're gonna be in trouble. Similarly you could meet someone learning their limits coming the other way[/quote] To be fair you dont have to be drifting or exceeding the speed limit for that to be an issue any time you get in your car and frankly the drifting champion of the world would be safer in that situation (ie drifting his arse off when something unexpected happens on a public road) than you would be if you were driving within the speed limits.... Thats Nobuteru Taniguchi, drives now in Super Taikyu and is one of the best drifters in the world. He's driving an A86 Trueno (very average road car) and clearly has some of the best car control you'll see anywhere. I'd rather it was him coming toward me hanging the back out a bit than almost anyone else in the world, cos he'd sort it out in no time!

[quote name='OldGit' post='476934' date='May 1 2009, 12:37 PM']I am sure you know this but it's because recording is a totally different game to playing live. So different that it shoud be considered a whole different skill. Most people have never had to think about any of the things you are talking about . I've done sessions where none of this was considered or mentioned - well not to me anyway. How about giving bands some guidance when they book - back to the leaflet idea again, or a web page - say a list of "things you can do to mak ethe session go better, to end up with a better end result and to save time and money" That shoudl encourage them to read it Sad an FAQ with "What can I do to help the producer" as one of the questions .. Then they can think about bvs, effect chains, arrangements, etc before they turn up and at least you could say "did you RTFL?" (read the f'n leaflet)[/quote] Yeah been there done that. ALways still do with a new buch in the studio. Try and tell them they would be best off going into the reheasal studio 4 times over the nexrt week to work it all out and tighten it up before recording, sort out tones, examples, mixes they like etc etc, bvs, overdubs, and lastly do you use a click? Usuually they get to the studio and still arent sure. So they slow the process down. Its fine if they have the budget, hopeless if they dont

[quote name='maxrossell' post='476899' date='May 1 2009, 12:15 PM']Heh - I just got an email from their keyboard player, who says that she can't really think of anything that she would like to sound like, but she wants her parts to sound full, crisp and clear. I'm kind of wondering what the alternative would be?[/quote] I rest me case. Bloody stupid response. Course she does, even if she only says 'I've got my timbres sorted, but I want the pads to sit in the mix like they do in this track' would be better. Musicians are the bane of engineers lives

[quote name='maxrossell' post='476766' date='May 1 2009, 10:19 AM']Really? That's [i]insane.[/i] I would have thought it would be common sense. Like I'm doing four tracks in a day today (hardly a rare occurrence for any studio bod) and accordingly I don't want to spend hours and hours beard-stroking over the sound of a kick or a snare or what have you. Just tell me you wanna sound like Dave Grohl or Buddy Rich and let's get on with it.[/quote] No really, I've had spotty guitarists saying 'But I'm an individual - I dont sound like anyone' then obviously try and be Kirk Cobain. Its so tedious, Wastes all their time, and you end up compromising whilst tracking cos they cant explain what they want, then having to try and make up for that at mixdown - we all know that that way madness lies, especially on a budget! In my very personal opinion the only changes to tracking that you should consider by the time you get to mix down is bvs and thats only cos so few bands give them a second thought! They tend to spend hours contemplating their navel about which distortion pedal should go where in their fx chain but never give aq moments consideration to bvs. I recently had a chance to do a spot of drum programming for a remix of a Chaka Kahn/Mary J Blige track (no really!). We got the vocal as a stereo pair (not too helpful) but it was mind boggling how much effort had gone it to it. Yet conversely the structure was a mess (some peculiar bars of 9/8 and 7/8 IIRC), and it lacked a good hook, but the detail and attention on the vocal interaction and layers of harmony was just incredible! Sadly what we put forward never got considered for release as the guy didnt like the direction we were going (very classic Motown backing band thing - he couldnt see where it was going to end up or ran out of cash for the project, either way he shelved it), but it was all a bit last minute anyway. Still worth some involvement just to hear the vocal raw. I wish vocalists and bands would consider bvs as important as lead - they really are....

Get everyone in the band to play as quietly as they can. Not turning down - just playing really soft for all the verses in each song. Have a competition to see who can play the verse the most inaudibly. I've managed to get a band that was rocking out way over shouting levels down to under a normal conversation level - yes the drummer is the key! Then let everyone play the verses a little louder so they dont feel so constricted - the groove will flood back - but not louder than loud conversation ie you can still talk to each other. Then go as loud as possible in the chorus, or better yet drop some full volume stabs into the verse. You play like that live and the audience will jump a mile on each chorus'set of stabs. Works every time and you get a reputation as being brilliant. If you exaggerate this stuff when rehearsing it becomes easy quickly and you can do what you like in a live situation....

[quote name='maxrossell' post='476556' date='Apr 30 2009, 11:55 PM']Ah, man, I have no idea how helpful that would be. Everyone has different gear, everyone wants a different sound. I'm mixing this record tomorrow and the assignment I've given the band is to bring in records that give examples of how they'd like their instruments to sound, just so I have some idea of what they're aiming for. I reckon it would take far better men than me a very very long time to put together a comprehensive guide.[/quote] +1 Getting a band to bring in stuff they want to sound 'like' as a starting point is so useful, yet you're the only person other than Bob Birthright who I've ever heard suggest or do this. It save hours of arguments I find. Top tip for all of you lot next time you are going to track or mix a demo.....

[quote name='RhysP' post='476171' date='Apr 30 2009, 04:45 PM']Jeff Berlin takes a lot of crap for the things he says in print but I think Jackson is far worse.[/quote] Too true.

[quote name='liamcapleton' post='476058' date='Apr 30 2009, 02:49 PM'][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAiRfPNQdJY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAiRfPNQdJY[/url][/quote] Yeah thats the fella.....

A band needs:- Players who are proficient enough to pull off what they are attempting with ease (aplomb even) Players committed enough to put in the work to get up to scratch with the material Players with a good idea of interaction with an audience Players who understand how to make the band as a whole unit sound good in a live situation Players with enough sense of the team to let their sound be a part of the inevitable whole. If you are missing any of those then you will be less good than you could be. The punters may not be able to identify why you arent as good as the band with all the above, but they will know which band is better.

[quote name='chris_b' post='475802' date='Apr 30 2009, 10:54 AM']The guy's expressing a personal view and you lot just heap insults!![/quote] His personal views are unfounded, sensationalist and clearly an attempt to garner attention, and further more he isn't offering any positive response, he is just happy to spout that the end is nigh, and sit down and wait for it. That stinks of attention grabbing soundbite crud. I have absolutely no respect for that attitude. He therefore deserves insults in abundance IMHO. Shame, I really do wish he would shut up and play. He's not at all bad at that.....

I prefer to levitate....

[quote name='maxrossell' post='475900' date='Apr 30 2009, 12:27 PM']I also struggle to explain it with words. I guess you could draw a picture showing EQ curves and such, but I think that might be even more confusing. For me it's an advantage to be able to say "can I try" and just haul on their guitar and sort their amp out, and give it back, and let them realise that it does in fact work. I think the best way of explaining it would be to appeal to the guitard's sensibilities. Tell him that by backing off the gain he'll be able to get down to "his real tone", explain to him that by cutting bass and treble and adding mids he'll sound louder and clearer and everyone will hear what he's doing.[/quote] Or just it him over the back of the head with a guitar stand, sort his sound out and tell him he passed out at the end of the last solo - so overcome with emotion was he - chances are he'll not notice.....

[quote name='HeavyJay' post='475871' date='Apr 30 2009, 12:05 PM']Forgive me for getting you started on this but, please could you get started on this? The guitarist I play with is a big fan of digital delay.[/quote] Right you asked for it:- Reverb live:- Anytime you play live in a nice big room it has plenty of reverb unless its a thoroughly professionally treated room. Reverb has the effect of moving sources into the background. Thats what it is used for at mixdown, that and putting things 'in a sonic space'. Basically the higher the ratio of reverb to direct the further back you tend to drop that sound. The upshot is that to combat this the sound may then be made either extremely bright or extremely loud (out of all proportion to what is actually required) to bring it forward in the mix. Lead guitarists love to whack a load of reverb on their guitar, it gives an illusion of sustain when playing solo in the bedroom. Bring that sound into a band setting though and their guitar drops back in the mix, so they turn up even more and fill all the sonic space up with a wall of reverb crud. No one can hear anything at all for lead guitar reverb mud and ear splittingly treble orientated hi gain guitar. Awful! Delay live:- Caveat: I do understand that certain signature guitar sounds are very delay dependant, but those sounds all suffer to a certain extent from the same issues as the too much reverb situation. Reverb is effectively lots and lots and lots of delays all jumbled together after all. If your guitarist has so much delay on that you cant tell what he is playing now vs what is a repeat then he will tend to sit further and further back in the mix - his sound is now effectively more of a keyboard pad. Again he will tend to turn himself up (not being a keyboard player he wont think of his arpeggios plus delay as in fact just that a nice pad). Quite possibly until he fills all sonic space, and STILL complain that he cant hear himself - mainly cos all any of us can hear now is the god awful delay.... These modulation effects all tend to move things into the background, you can cause the same problems by overuse of chorus. I like Michael Manring's approach to chorus, he say he turns it up until he can _just_ hear it, then turns it down a smidge. When you turn it off you notice its gone, otherwise you'd be hard put to tell exactly whether or not something is there. I try and do the same thing with reverb whenever I get the chance. Acoustic space isnt something you really hear, but it affects you perception of what you are hearing, if you stray too far from that you can make life very difficult for yourself. In the studio go for your life, go nuts with fx, whatever floats your boat. Do it at mixdown though, not when tracking, But live you are fighting an alien and hostile acoustic environment 9 times out of 10, and if you want to hear yourselves, and be heard you need to cut the clutter right out. Both on stage and off. A hint of something in a band that sounds really well balanced is more often than not actually enough. Go over the top and the experience of the punters will be damaged due to the inevitable volume war that follows. You all may be very lucky and have guitarists who are trained sound engineers and understand this stuff, or just have incredible understanding of their gear and how fx can change thing, and therefore when to use how much of what. I am sooo pleased for you if you do. But I suspect it may not always be the case!

I've done this to several bands I've been in. Its always difficult to explain why you need to do it, and that the players in question will gain from it. Usually I say if I dont make the band as a whjole sound/feel and work better they can all change back and I'll buy everyone a pint for their trouble. The caveat is we record before and after the sound in the room of the band. Put the two takes away for a week and then listen with some punters (ie significant others) and let them judge. I've never had to buy a pint yet..... Guitarists _always_ underestimate the need for midrange, and overestimate the need for gain. They never understand the concept of frequency mixing until it is actually drawn for them (ie little graphs). Worse still they always try and sneak back to their bedroom rock god sound unless you stay on their case. And dont get me started on over use of delay and reverb by guitarists in a live situation, what are they on???? I sometimes wonder how any of them get by at all......

[quote name='BigRedX' post='475246' date='Apr 29 2009, 04:50 PM']And you were doing so well... Unfortunately that statement is up there with "you only need a Fender Bass..." While there are still plenty of situations where your statement holds true, there are equally plenty of styles of music for which those kinds of studios are total overkill and completely inappropriate.[/quote] I didn't say there weren't, and I certainly didnt mean to imply that. What I said was you cant get a great big live room in a home recording situation. So there will always be a need for those situations. AJ is talking utter baloney here actually. Almost all serious cinema has need of orchestral recording and that requires huge live rooms. Of course it doesnt require a fat electric bassist so much, maybe thats his issue? And I dont believe for a moment that the Nashville studio scene is about to go away either, and the studios in Nashville are some of the nicest in the world, maybe they have enough fat bassists already? And I totally stand by the part about a pro engineer getting better results quicker than a bedroom fanatic, even one with serious cash.

[quote name='The Funk' post='474533' date='Apr 28 2009, 08:01 PM']Errrm... guilty.[/quote] oops +1

[quote name='Musicman20' post='473659' date='Apr 27 2009, 08:09 PM']Also, what in reality does Berg make that competes against a full weight normal 4x10?[/quote] Well the ae410 is a [b]tiny[/b] 410 that blows all the rest I've ever heard away IMO. Not heavy for a 410 either, and incredibly compact. A pair of ae112s will keep up with a 410 in reality I think (haven't actually a/b'ed at a gig myself) A pair of ae210s more than = an ae410 (slightly deeper sound apparently, I have a/b'ed them with an ae410 and its a tiny difference IMO) The HT112ER mini stack is pretty much equal to the ae112 ministack - if not a bit more depth and that non-neo thing going on Oh and the HT210 is spectacular for a 210, its not up to a high end 410, but its the best 210 I've ever heard. Really would love to get the HT115 to put underneath it!

[quote name='beardybass' post='474852' date='Apr 29 2009, 10:26 AM']Good to see everyone being so positive about this like! See that's the upside of places like this, there are people like 51mon who can say, "this guy talks cack, ignore him!"[/quote] Yeah and there are enough people who say that about me too There will always be a need for recording, if only as the advert to get people to come to the gig of course!

Oooooh scare mongery, classic FUD. AJ talks out of his butt! <shock horror> Sorry that kind of ranting tosh makes my blood boil, and AJ has done enough of it to make me no longer take any notice of anything he says. Remember his rants about slapping and not using an ERB etc etc - tw@t! Great player though. Needs to shut up and play! Live music at a grass roots level is thriving. I've seen it first hand. Staggering young players who really can play, can read on their instruments if they wish, can compose and play to an audience. Brilliant. He should get out more. There will always be people who prefer programmed/electronica. Excellent! Nothing says we cant play bass on that too (Doug Wimbish made a name for himself doing just that) There have been 'talent' shows for as long as there has been Saturday evening TV (Opportunity Knocks anyone), it will continue to be ignored by real music lovers. Home recording is getting cheaper and cheaper. But, and its a huuuuge but, you can not beat a great live room. Sorry thats where its at. Only a serious studio can get the sound of a fantastic live room, cos they are huge and tend to have really nice acoustic work done to them too. No one in a bedroom near you is going to have a Neve console, and they really do sound that good. Most home studios spend less on mics and outboard than a serious studio spends on wiring and yes that makes a massive difference too. Upshot is if you want to record live music really well you need a serious studio. If you want to record a really really great demo that is releasable you can do it at home (but it really will cost you a lot in both cash and time). Lastly, and this is what counts most, a serious studio should have seriously good technical staff, and I would trust a great engineer to get a great sound in his studio working his way over anyone in a bedroom. I'm not saying it cant be done, but I am saying in all probability even now, and looking forward 30 years from now, the professionals will still have the upper hand, and it will count. Right now mp3 is good enough. That will not last. As bandwidth and harddisk space and solid state RAM increase in size people will realise that better sound quality makes for a better experience again (witness the HQ button on youtube). Then the better recorded material will stand tall. My concern is actually how long we will have to wait for over compression at the mastering phase to peter out. Its very seductive, however I was listening to some old cds yesterday, and yes I had to crank them up a bit (what a pity), but the drums (particularly the kick) sounded amazing for it! I think this trend is actually doing more damage than the entire mp3 issue myself....