51m0n

Lalo Schiffrin is THE don for me too (my whole band are hugely influenced by his work, and that of Roy Budd) Since we've seen a tiny bit of Schiffrin, here's some of my favourites Roy Budd themes:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_n9WfCJmbM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-Fc31-WIt8 And just one more from Lalo Schiffrin:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JMc1jwYQkI

I havent got round to liking everyone yet, but I intend to, mainly because I need the time to listen to all of them, because if I really dig the content I want to follow them, but if its not my bag I'd rather skip that bit (no offense chaps)

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1420675303' post='2652179'] I wish folks would qualify this idea. I'll say it again, it takes certain skills and resources to start a gigging band on your own. It's not an option for everyone. Blue [/quote] My long rambling post was trying to do just that. Oops, fail Its so simple though, the only skills you need to start a band are an idea, and persistence. You dont need to play well or at all really, enough electronica and punk acts started out of a desire to make a sound and no real knowledge of music to prove this Getting people to buy into your idea is as simple as engaging the right people, which happens if you take the time to find them, it took me about ten years before I found the first two people who would be the right people for my band, but I did eventually find them. The right people are the ones who want to join your band provided you give them accurate information about what you are about. As for resources, I used anything to hand to try and connect to people who might fit, I met the drummer taking my son to music classes where his son went, and we got talking, I met the guitarist on bandmix, because I liked one of his tracks (as in I clicked like, he found me on facebook as a result of liking what I put up there on bass and seeing that I had liked his track - interesting dynamic), I found the trombonist as I work with him (had done for a couple of years, had no idea he played an instrument - result!), he brought the trumpet player, he wouldnt play unless she did as well, they come as a pair (double result). The gap between the first two getting involved and the second two was over a year, when the horns came we already had a set, it took another 9 months before we grew further. The keys player I found via gumtree. The percussionist saw us at a gig and wanted to play with us, she is by far the most qualified member of the band (MA from the Royal College of Music - that carries plenty of weight with me). The more of a band and a set you have, the easier it is to get good musicians interested though.

And I helped out with the PA in the car park of a big hotel off the M25 last year. I forget where exactly, but damn fine burgers were available too (nom). Your drummer put a stick through his snare and the quick change of snare whilst your 'Brian' took his solo slot was hilarious Great band, thoroughly entertaining bunch, go and see them if you get a chance!

I've been in bands on and off for 25 years now. At one time I was in more than 5 bands, but I was dedicating all my time to music then, and you're right that covers a huge amount of ground when it comes to the different types of payback you can get from being in a band. Then real life took over and my lifestyle changed, now I'm in one band, its a project I had in the back of my mind for over ten years that I have tried to get off the ground a couple of times before, each failed and I learnt a lot from those failures. Main take aways were that the concept for the band was really sound but would only work with exactly the right people involved at the core. Every band has to have a concept, even if its just go in a room with some mates and make noise, but the better you can define that concept before trying to get partners in crime the less likelihood of disappointment and unrest there will be IME. So if you are looking for a band and get an audition for someone, really see if you can spot a well targetted concept when you meet them, it will drive pretty much everything about the band, the line up, set/style, look of the band and anything that can be considered as stand out about the band comes from an interesting concept IME. If you are looking to start a band then really spend some time to find a niche concept, the easiest one is as a tribute band, sure you have to spend some time learning material and get some thrift store clothes to sort of match and maybe a wig, but 95% of the thinking was already done by the original band. Which is a big part of why there are so many tribute bands out there getting paid for gigs to play covers. A niche is important though, you want to stand out, but appeal to a lot of people based upon genre or scene, so a niche or clever variation can make all the difference IME. Having had my concept up and running and progressing for a couple of years some other truths have become crystal clear, firstly always always set expectations super clearly with all the members of the band, and keep them the same for everyone. This is actually trickier than it sounds, you need a reliable core to the band, but in my case we have core members and then a series of other musicians who are maybe a step away from that core, the main reason is the core members directly contribute to compositions, but the other slightly more satellite members are less involved in this, either they are given the music they need to play by a section leader, or their parts are icing on the cake and they are so good that they can create brilliant parts from the now existing arrangements that are perfect compliments to what has been put together already. There is a definite cross over of these twop main areas, and I've found members to become more core as their tenure with the band increases, for instance our keys player was a late addition, but his ideas have become integral to the music we have, and he has become less icing and more core as a result. Gigging without him is nowhere near as good as gigging with him (always a sign that a member is now integral). However even the satellite players are bringing a part of themselves to the role they play in the band and without them the band is far less impressive sounding and looking, so they are equal in all other regards within the band, they just dont need to make every rehearsal if we are in a composing mode, but when we are leading up to a gig they have to be their to get the set rehearsals right. Our bass trombonist doesnt write anything, but he is integral to the sound of the band, is a lovely chap, reliable and an excellent player, he's worth his weight in chocolate coins so he is! This matches where your expectations should be as a player joining a band as well though, in the first instance expect to be less a core member, even if you play on every song (unless you are a founder member), even as a bass player there is a period where you can expect to be working your way into the band playing some other guy's parts to a greater extent, but with time you will become a core member of the band because they can't gig without you, or you'll be binned as a poor fit. Expectations are driven by some simple things, how much you are getting to be in the band, be that in terms of financial reward or musical gratification, versus the amount of effort required to be a member of the band. And getting that balance right is the be all and end of getting a band to gel happily and progress IME. Everyone has to know where they stand wrt the money, and they need to know that any money they dont get is going back into the band (recording, photoshoots/video, rehearsal time, PA hire, transport, materials - doesnt matter, you have to keep everyone clear about where that little trickle of cash is actually going), and every once in a while a decent paying gig begin divvied up with everyone is a real win for a niche originals band, I can assure you. We dont get big paying gigs normally, but we do get huge musical satisfaction, the band exists because of that satisfaction, we are all trying to create great music to play in front of people, and that has attracted more, and better musicians as time has gone on. The caliber of musician you are looking to play with must be in your mind every time soneone else trys out, you dont want to be teaching anyone how to play your music or their instrument, if they dont have the chops, or the knowledge of the genre/niche/concept you are better off waiting for someone else than having them in the band, they will just dilute the goal and slow progress down. So expect to be turned away from auditions where you dont fit that band's concept pretty exactly fairly often, unless you have command of a wide range of styles really under your fingertips. Its not you, its just you aren't what they want, its a sign of a band with a target if they take time to choose the right players, its a good thing if you see this once you are in a band IMO! Similarly no one wants to put up with an arsehat, so coming across as the big I am or in any way being a potential PIA negates any ability in a genre/niche/conept to get in the bands, no one os that good that they can be a PIA and get into a good band, so be nice, be respectful, be fun, be positive and always be reliable. Fail on any of those points and expect to be asked to leave sooner or later. Or the band will fold IME, because the rest of the members will leave you to it and find something else to do.. Finally have goals, that are achievable for each year, last year we were after firming up the line up, getting to a two set in a night with some extra tracks thrown in to allow us to rotate those sets for our own sanity and play some gigs where we really connected with the audience - even better if it was in a new town with a new audience. Simple goals, we achieved them all to varying degrees, we are a solid 7 piece, but one of the 7 can't always make it (they are so wildly excellent asa musician and a real icing on the cake so they are in regardless, its rather nice to have a player of their calibre desperate to be in your band whenever they can be), we are still looking for an 8th member (a third horn) we had a try out but he's too busy to commit at all, so he's not going to make it, we have some leads, and we played some great gigs this year including a blinder in London, huge tick! Another goal was to play some festivals in 2015, and we've just been asked to play the Elderflower Festival this May, which is a lovely way to start the year, knowing we have a highlight gig (for us) in the bag, the whole band is uper fired up over landing this gig, to some people it may be a little festival and no big deal, but remember, we a rea seriously niche originals band who have got there by word of mouth and people seeing us live, it means a lot to people who are getting not much other than musical satisfaction that other people are really rating our endeavours. So if the band you find yourself in has no new goals, set some and work out how to make them happen, or you will stagnate in just a few months. And then the band will start to fall apart. If you cant find a band like this, then start your own, but be prepared to do pretty much all the leg work yourself, band leaders have to exist in every band, or they lose direction, but a benevolent dictator with a heart of gold is the only band leader you should care to work with unless they are paying you a decent chunk of cold hard cash. Its also the only type of band leader you can afford to be unless you are getting serious gigs in that pay well enough to make playing for you worth the pain you will be in the arse of the musicians working for you. Starting a new band is a long term endeavour, you arent going to be playing headlining gigs to full houses within a year, thats for sure, but its amazingly rich in its rewards nevertheless.... Sorry for the essay!

Tip top idea! Anyone interested in some instrumental funkiness can like my lot here (just noticed I need to update the banner again - oops):- [url="https://www.facebook.com/MisterSuperJuice"]https://www.facebook.com/MisterSuperJuice[/url] I'd thoroughly appreciate any likes that happen to come our way, have really enjoyed looking at the other FB pages from you lot, lots ot like there, fantastic!

RME Babyface or UCX

JTUK, anyone wading in with absolutes isn't considering the breadth of different requirements on here. Yes in the world of big live tours with huge PAs and proper sound checks with excellent sound engineers he is right, it's often not required. However if you need to get a mix in five minutes down the Dog and Duck and you run a complex board or there are certain tones you love that require heavy compression to achieve then he's not talking about the same situation. So to come out with an absolute is to be asking for a rebuttal from people seeing these other situations. Which is all he got.

So you've had a successful career as a sideman and never used a compressor yourself? So what? Plenty of other far higher profile than yourself successful bass playing sidemen do use compressors, Tony Levin, Doug Wimbish to name just two. Also, most of the people on this site are playing to small audiences in small venues, they don't have a sound guy they may not even be in the pa but they are striving to deliver the most professional sounding show they can. One thing that can help is a well set up decent compressor in their chain. I couldn't care less who you worked for or how many air miles you have, you come across like a close minded prat when you talk in terms of absolutes in a field of artistic endeavour. Compressors absolutely are about shaping transients and tone control, if you know what you're doing. I've mixed hundreds of tracks, tracked even more and done live sound on I've no idea how many shows, been taught sound by some excellent people in the industry for years. And I'm still learning, and don't know all the answers. I am fully qualified to set up a compressor or a limiter to achieve a huge variety of effects with a real sensitivity to playing style, song requirements and so on. Hey I've even given lectures on how different types of compressors work and how to set them up properly to bassists all in the spirit of sharing what you know to try and help people achieve their goals. When you have spent as much time investigating the use of compression as I have you'll be very qualified to tell everyone how they should think about using one if they choose to, until then stick to what you do know about, playing bass. If I knew as much as you about where you are as a player I'd be all about trying to help people who aren't there achieve as professional a sound as possible. I would focus on playing styles, note choice, dealing with a very demanding band leader, bullet proof gear, stage craft etc etc. That's useful stuff, saying never use a compressor is just too close minded for words though, and frankly misses a whole gamut of reasons why one might decide to. I would be very shocked if, when you are playing live, the engineer on the desk at FOH isnt compressing your bass sound for a variety of reasons, unless you are playing very acoustic jazz, then he might not. As for on a recording, then the enginner will be compressing the bass, and ducking it off the kick too (so as to help the mastering engineer achieve level) in almost every genre I can think of today. As well as compressing drums, and anything else that may need to be controlled, or beefed up or softened or made punchier, its all in those settings and the choice of compressor itself. In fact on the Midas pro 1 its even possible to duck the bass on the kick live to maximise the kick, beleive me they do that live too nowadays - great desks those, amazing, its like having every studio trick you might need in one box with fantastic pres and converters at the stage and a couple of ethernet cables between the stage and the FOH board. For what it's worth I use a compressor, it's a fully featured studio compressor set very carefully to squeeze very gently when I'm playing normally, but to grab at heavy pops a bit more aggressively 30ms after the transient hits the compressor, giving a real radio master vibe to those notes I chose to play like that. I also set a limiter after that as I run a lot of effects and some of my filters can dump massive low end that I don't want to hit my cab, if there has been a change in settings or something else unexpected happens that may well save me a very expensive repair bill, Bergantino ae410 drivers are not easy to come by....

[quote name='vailbass' timestamp='1419921011' post='2643921'] nah, compressors don't do any of those things...it's a terrible crutch that is never advisable. Now the sound engineer may use a limiter to good effect on the mains or a mix engineer will use compression after the fact on a recorded track and that won't affect your playing. Using a compressor in your signal chain that you hear while playing will take much (if not all, depending on the settings) of the control out of your hands and put it in the electronics; hence the "crutch". If you can play proficiently (and that should always be a goal) you will never want, much less need, a compressor in your signal chain. My advice to all my students is to develop control over your instrument so that electronic 'aides' will not be necessary. Best of luck to you! :-) [/quote] Ooooh you're funny! We'd best be telling Tony Levin he was doing it all wrong when getting monster bass tones with massive compression on them for his entire career. I'm sure he'll realise the error of his ways . Good luck getting a bass tone with the same envelope without twatting the hell out of a compressor though, let us know how you get on with that . Sometimes a compressor is not necessary, sometimes it is. To suggest that using one is always a crutch that shouldn't be there just suggests you don't know how to use one well IME. Never mind.....

That's nonsense, there are many reasons to use a compressor live, it certainly isn't a crutch at all. If you play with a dynamics heavy band and use a compressor for what it gives you in terms of how it changes the envelope of your bass on louder passages, then you have to be more overtly delicate to achieve the correct level in quieter passages. It's all very dependant on what you use the compressor to achieve live. And that determines how it is set up. Recording is different to a degree, for sure, most of the time anyway.

Unusually the markbase is a real valve vari-mu compressor rather than a valve preamp in front of a vca compressor. Enjoy!

How odd, it's supposed to be Thriller....

How odd, it's supposed to be Thriller....

[quote name='notable9' timestamp='1419024072' post='2635888'] Whether I "hanker" after anything is irrevelant. The whole point of the thread was to debate what appears to be quite an interesting topic. Here is a tune which I hope illustrates my interest in the thread title. And I accept that this particular tune will find very little if any love on this forum but then that's not the point, I just think it's a good example. [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38L7S-L9vXg"]https://www.youtube....h?v=38L7S-L9vXg[/url] Thats what I mean by sparkle... [/quote] It's strange how personal and subjective this all gets. To me this mix lacks body in everything. The bass is too midrange heavy, and has no weight, yet clutters the frequency space I'd want weight from the snare, which is completely balls free having been eq'ed way too bright to be a convincing back beat, or even snare sound. The horns are also so lacing in heft as to have no punch at all, the piano is less bright, which is a blessed relief, but could have more wood in the tone, it's a bit non-descript and characterless, but that's because it is competing directly with the vocal, which is very nicely performed and captured. It's all just so plastic feeling to me. If you wanted an example of perfect 80's production the it has to be this, nothing else cones close, Bruce Swedian is a God..... http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D5-405Vvn3OU&ved=0CCIQtwIwAQ&usg=AFQjCNGerhZAj1kBGMT793dBmmcPLqubbQ

Of course it was tongue in cheek, just a whole lot too subtle for some people to get .....

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1419100389' post='2636611'] Yep.. didn't particuarly mean to single out your post, that post was irrelevant as well...or someone didn't read the thread title.. which isn't usually a problem unless it purports to support an argument..rather than just a comment, which it appeared to me to do.. [/quote] Ha, a third of Chic's set was covers, they played a load of songs Nile produced but were not Chic by any means. By that token they are probably the single highest profile covers band on any circuit last year. They are therefore relevant to a thread entitled 'Using a music stand in a covers band'.

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1419004606' post='2635657'] I agree, it sounds not half bad on my studio monitors (39Hz-20kHz) and I like that it's not completely crushed to death. I find that listening to combatants in The Loudness War extremely tedious, mainly because you can't listen to more than about thirty seconds of a track without it becoming very tiring. [/quote] Phew, thought my ears were knackered for a minute there

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1419003637' post='2635646'] Well, it sounds a bit crap through my laptop with a busted speaker, so I think you need to try harder. Plus it needs more cow-bell and the bass is a bit glovey. [/quote] I did suggest more cowbell, honest J

[quote name='notable9' timestamp='1419002673' post='2635637'] Sorry old fruit but ur track is exactly what Im going on about....it lacks dynamic range and separation. Sure her voice sounds clear but the interplay between everything else sounds like mud. The whole thing just doesnt sparkle. Sorry. [/quote] Yeah, if you streamed it the streaming quality does lose some extreme top end sparkle I grant you (way lower than 256Kbps I thknk), the wavs and my mp3s of this are definitely brighter. There's a tonne of dynamic range in those mixes, compared to contemporary pop mate. Celo Greens Forget You has about 6dB of dynamic range, this has about 15dB, after mastering. Before, well, a [b]lot [/b]more. Although yes as opposed to the ultrabright production of the 80's where the top end around 8 to 12Khz is turned up to overload on everything (Clannad for instance) some aspects of the mix are not super bright, there was a deliberate intent to meld certain instruments together as opposed to carving everything out on its own. Its a stylistic approach that tends to lead you to hear more things the more you listen, thats why its mixed that way. Not everything should be clear in every mix, or else there are no surprises. There is plenty of top end and sparkle on those parts of the mix that were chosen to 'sparkle'. In itself that generated seperation where it was wanted. However I accept that if you hanker after 80's style production above all else, its not for you.....

Oh to hell with it, in for a penny, in for a pound I'm still rather pleased with this old thing I mixed for Kit Richardson, I didnt get to track a bit of it, so there was plenty of twisting things to my will all the way through, I think it sounds pretty splendid as mixes go, it could be a little better in a couple of places, but you can always think in retrospects of changes you might make to improve something:- [url="http://kitrichardson.bandcamp.com/album/submission-chords"]http://kitrichardson...bmission-chords[/url] Entirely mixed in the box, soundcard is an RME UCX, plenty of different listening systems from floorstanding monitors to mobile phones and reference cans to cheap earbuds. There is absolutely masses going on in some of these tracks, but the point is you can't hear all of it in one listen. Do enjoy! Bear in mind though, if you aren't listening on £100,000 worth of monitoring kit, it shoudl still sound bloody fantastic.....

Discreet, mate, I can assure you I have access to some very very nice systems for comparative listening purposes. A great set up for me is a pair of reference quality cans plugged into my UCX, but thats not nearly expensive enough to assuage some people I can also assure you that a well encoded 320kbps mp3 of decent material (ie not crushed) is virtually impossible to tell from a wav in a double blind test. Because I've tried it with myself and some other people (some engineers, some 'golden eared' audiophile naysayers). There are some types of material where it does become noticeable, but to my ear its only stuff thats been rogered with clipping in the wav, and that clipping then becomes more obvious in the encoding process (or is it the minute ratio between peaks and average level that screws up the algorithm? I'm not sure). Never got better than a 50/50 reult in 3 different tests, I know I'm such a laugh to hang out with .... Thanks for considering me childlike though

Best gig I've ever seen in my life was Chic at Love Supreme last year, without a doubt the most energetic professional note perfect engaging and breathtaking performace (of well over an hours material) I have ever seen. If I'd only known what we have learnt on this thread, then I would have done the right thing and turned tail and walked out the moment I noticed the ipads on the horn sections stands and the keyboard player's stand. Dammit I was conned, how do I get my money back? Seriously, though, music stands can be fine even on an uptempo pub gig for those bands that can actually get away with it IMO. Horns regularly use them, my own horn section use stands, and we have long improvised sections where the horn section lead chooses what each player is goin gto play at a given moment in some cases, in others she is capable of writing out parts on the fly for two other players by ear, whilst working out her own part and harmonising further with a vocal harmoniser on her trumpet. You cant do that with a tablet! To clarify the horns take a break in an improv section for 8 bars whilst someone else is taking some spotlight, or just as a dynamic rest, in which she can come up with a new part for the section, communicate it to them and be ready to count it in in 8 bars. Its unbelievably impressive! Last gig we played was in a pub in North East London, we had two music stands fo rthe horns, none for anyone else. We have never played this place before, but the punters are there to hear funk (funk DJs playing before we went on, lovely selection of rare groove). We aren't your archetypal happy funk band, we're really dark instrumental jazz tinged funk inspired by the likes of Lalo Schifrin and Roy Bud circa 70-75 (nichje or what!). No one left because of the stands, no one commented on the stands, the gig went brilliantly, masses of compliments in between the sets, and people dancing for the entire show. I personally think the fact that we have really tightened the gaps between the tracks up and the fact that ther is enough to look at (I boogie around a bit and am very focused on as my eye contact with punters as possible, the rest of the band are in various states of 'in the zone') mean that no one is off put by the stands. Hell we even had people commenting on what a great keys player we have, and he had to sit off stage (not enough room), - fair play though he is very very funky, but thats still not natural . I am the first to admit we were in the right venue on the right night with the right crowd, but we had a blinding gig and entertained a packed venue to a huge collection of punters. Music stands are irrelevant to that IME.

[quote name='Norris' timestamp='1418907936' post='2634698'] I do, but tbh cannot be bothered with another argument /coat [/quote] With all due respect your description of steps and adding noise is nonsense, please read the article I posted (http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html), in particular the section '[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=3]Sampling fallacies and misconceptions[/size][/font]' which describes how you are wrong. Noise is a function of bit depth not sampling rate, and at 24bit is less than any analogue medium, whiilst at 16bit the dynamic range (ie available volume above the noise floor) is so great as to be a non issue in all but the widest dynamic range music (big hint here, that aint anything other than experimental electronica)

[quote name='Norris' timestamp='1418900775' post='2634578'] [b]Digitising music inherently introduces noise as music volume is quantised (or rounded to the nearest 'step')[/b]. However the biggest impact imho is the compression 'war' where every producer tries to get their track to stand out and sound powerful. This is easily noticed in shouty TV adverts that sound so much louder than the program you've just been watching. It has the effect of squeezing all of the 'air' out of a recording [/quote] This is utter nonsense, you clearly do not understand how this stuff actually works in practice, Nyquist ( the guy who can be credited for coming up with sampling theory mathematically proved the minimum number of samples required to [b]accurately reproduce[/b] a waveform as a function of its highest frequency. That accurately reproduce is important, because it means the result of converting the sample back into analogue produces a result that is [b]exactly[/b] equivalent to the original sampled input. In other wiords they are identical. Of course run that through a load of electronics, and an amp, and turn it into sound via a transceiver and that will have an affect, but the actual d/a conversion wont. 44.1KHz achieves that for sound (since not a single person on this forum can hear above 20KHz, now or ever in their life), you really really dont need recording/playback at any higher samplerate, the only time this isnt true is if you want to be able to have less severe filtering above the maximum required sampled input frequencey up to the sample frequency. It can be useful to have higher sample rates if you are going to go on to do some form of mathematical function on the waveform to change it ( ie digital eq/compression/whatever), because that can provide greater accuracy in the result. Read this exceptional article on sample rates and their current misuse here:- http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Compression confuses people who love to bemoan various aspects of modern sounding records. Lossy compression (mp3s for instance) refers to file size compression using algorithms that bin parts of the original recording deemed not important. I guarantee that no one on this forum can detect a 320kbps mp3 against an original 16bit 44.1KHz wav on any speakers they wish to use with any accuracy in double blind testing. Compression as a 'very bad thing' as a part of the loudness wars, actually refers to using various techniques to get the softer part of the recording closer in volume to the loudest part using multiband compression/limiting/automated gain riding breverse comression etc. The point being the misunderstanding (amoongst suits and bean counters mainly) that the loudest product sells best, or more importantly can be heard on the radio in the car. This 'war' goes waaaaaayyy back to Motwon vs The Beatles where the loudest 7" won on the jukebox (Motown beign very upset with The Beatles ability to get more grunt than them). Modern recording techniques and technology far exceed anythign achievable up until now. Vinyl is without doubt a far worse medium in terms of sonic performance than digital is. People can enjoy the 'vinyl experience' all they like, and more power to them, but in critical testing in a double blind scenario it does not sound better than digital, that is a fallacy, largely put forward by the snakeoil loving audiophile nutters. If you cant measure it, people, it aint there. Now, enough defending the tech, the awful truth is digital has been roundly abused for level for years, this includes eqing to make things psychoacoustically louder (more 2KHz - now dammit!) extreme limiting of peaks and clipping even for that last 0.1 dB of average level (ratios of average level to peak are the lowest they have been in history in thye pop 'chart'). You cannot do the same to vinyl because you just pop the needle out of the damn groove when the bass comes in. Add to this the fact that the louder the recording the worse the artifacts on an lossly compressed file and the amount of recordings done by people with a mac and no clue in a sh*t room and finally your preference for the sound of eighties style production and you have all the reasons you could ever need to think its all rubbish now. Its not all rubbish now, but a lot is, and its not the technology used to blame, its the way its abused or misused. In my not remotely humble opinion