51m0n

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1371559487' post='2115475'] Thanks for the 'thumb's up' on my scatter-brain mad scheme. Another question, a bit more delicate, maybe..? Can I re-do the bass line entirely..? As an engi, I'd do the best with what was played; as a producer, I'd ask for another take (it's not the playing, it's for a different style, or feel...). Is that going too far..? ([i]Ducks, runs for cover behind drum baffle, plonks hard hat onto bonce[/i]...) [/quote] Ooooh ontentious! Didnt we just have a great big long thread on here about exactly this type of shenanigans eh?

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1371553946' post='2115334'] It was a truly crap gig mate, and yet we got great comments by people you would expect to know better. I've been depressed ever since [/quote] Have you got a recording of it? If you dont you honestly cant be sure. Oh you can be sure thats how you felt about playing it on stage where you were, but unless you have a decent recording of the FOH in the room, and the audience reacction to the gig in the moment you cant judge a gig purely on how many cockups there were. Even if you can hear bodges in the recording, its the audience that 'know best' regarding the energy and the excitement and emotional impact you delivered. Right notes certainly play a part, and all the better if they are in the right places, but I am a pretty firm believer that the right notes int he right place must also convey the right energy and excitement and emotion to the audience or you may as well be a wall of washing machines as far as the audience (and me) are concerned.... Actually I'm going to add a bit more to this. I've only seen BigRedX's band once, in a nice little venue in Brighton. They must have travelled for hours to get there that evening. If I was to get all self important muso w***er about his band, I'd say, the guitarist looked great, but she did play a few duff chords, she missed a couple of queues, and I think her guitar went out of tune a couple of times. I'd say that BRX himself has possibly the most crabfisted excuse for technique on the instrument I've ever seen, he looks great, bit short though ( ). I couldnt hear most of the words due to the singer's extravagant flailing around and daft over theatrical nonsense, great bit of Theremin though. The drummer, I'm sure is a lovely fella but comes across a little quiet, maybe even scared of the rest of the band. On the other hand, if I were to express how I felt about being there in the atmosphere they created, in the presence of that furious mad hair ball of energy that they produced, I'd say it was one of the best gigs I've ever seen, just glorious, and every band on this forum would love to see them play, and couild probably learn a few things about ditching their inhibitions and actually performing to the audience. I rather think they didnt wander off in to the night after that gig all het up about the couple of possible almost train wrecks there might have been - if they did, they needn't have....

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1371557745' post='2115426'] In the mix that I did, I used a couple of duplicate drum patterns to do just what Dad asked. I didn't know about that what 51m0n has shown was possible. I had thought that something that could do it would be cool, but expected it to cost a bit. Cheers for that! [/quote] Well thats the point of the BC Mix 'Competition' - I hope it helps! You could easily combine Dad's idea with this, to make it really easy to trigger the right drums at the right time....

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1371557437' post='2115412'] Nice idea, Douglas! A good way of thinking round of the problem Go for it... it's certainly an approach that could work well in this instance. Some useful advice in the video above posted by Si. I knew you'd be tempted mate... maybe just room for a wafer-thin mint?? [/quote] F*** off, I'm Stuffed!!!

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1371556418' post='2115387'] That's cool! Is there any way to do that in Logic? [/quote] Almost certainly, but I havent used logic in anger for over 12 years and so couldnt possibly comment on what you can and cannot do with it in its current Mac only form.....

Wish I had time to do this one now OK for all those Reaper users out there, you can replace drums using the built in gate and any midi firing drum tool (or even Reasampler and a drum wav you like):- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKumkYIDar8 If you did this once for each drum in the kit you can get as medieval as you like to filter the drums before the gate and run off each new drum kit item to get totally clean drums to add back to what is there or replace it altogether....

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1371553503' post='2115326'] I always love vocal cues the most. I use them a lot. But doing that when the lyrics are in Zulu, and you have a repetitive one bar bass line with repetitive drums and an improvising percussionist over 92 bars before a one bar drop, one can either count (impossible and awful to do), or one learns those vocals. If the vocalist loses it too, then one is f***ed. It happened on Friday. We f***ed it up beatufully [/quote] Hah! Excellent, but I bet you just all carried on as if the f*** up was whatwas intended all along

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1371546654' post='2115198'] Try being in a band with a man who regularly sings the verses in the wrong order, who transposes lines within a verse and who will sing some lines from one verse and others from a different one. By the end of the song we'll have had all the lyrics - just not necessarily in the order that they were originally written (and maybe recorded). The only way for me is to simply practice the songs until I can play all the parts in the right order with the right number of repeats of each part without having to think about it, but can still if required cycle around the main riff until Mr Venom starts to sing. [/quote] Not to mention the fact that while he does this he's running amok in the venue, hanging off the chandelier in nowt more then his keks and some big s*** kicker boots. Its a disgrace! (Or a damned good show, but I digress)

[quote name='cytania' timestamp='1371545658' post='2115183'] Sing along with the words, makes the band seem really into the song. If counting try and visualise a large number right there on the fretboard. [/quote] Yeah, no lyrics or vocal melody clues for me, and I dont look at the fretboard at all when I'm playing. I'm so busy playing, and kind of directing the band that I find I havent got a spare processing thread left always to remember where the hell we are. My solution is to try and off load this on the horns more, they are less busy than me, consumate pros at counting, and more free to signal the rest of the band. Find out how this works out over the next few rehearsals.......

No ta

Oh no I missed that....

I never used to get this at all. Then I took a long break from playing and get it a lot. Especially now I'm in an instrumental band dping very very long funk tracks. I'm rubbish at counting!

Ouch! Don't leak the red oil....

[quote name='MiltyG565' timestamp='1371483513' post='2114409'] Is your avatar a clanger? [/quote] Errr no, my avatar is Deadlock, the Grand Wizard of the Knights Martial (a group of highly intelligent robots with psychic powers), sometime A.B.C Warrior, and all round clever (if not exactly good) git.... All hail Khaos.... All hail Khaos.... All hail Khaos.... All hail Khaos.... All hail Khaos.... All hail Khaos.... All hail Khaos.... All hail Khaos.... All hail Khaos.... All hail Khaos.... All hail Khaos.... All hail Khaos.... All hail Khaos.... All hail Khaos.... All hail Khaos.... All hail Khaos.... All hail Khaos.... All hail Khaos.... All hail Khaos.... All hail Khaos.... All hail Khaos.... All hail Khaos.... BZZZZZZKKKRRTTTCHHHTTT....? Err sorry, as you were, carry on, dont mind me, I seem to be leakign a bit of oil on the carpet, I'm sure I'll be fine....

I like the Clangers, the Soup Dragon was an evil git though!

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1371479021' post='2114320'] Manufacturers quote silly figures. Sennheiser say their pro 330s go down to 8hz. In reality the 3dB point is closer to 110, which is already half volume at low A. Your brain is very clever at putting in the things you know should be there but you can't detect. [/quote] Errr, I can tell the difference between something below 110Hz being there and not, my brain is pretty good at doing that, has been fo r agood while now, there is no reason whatsoever to believe headphones dont put out that bottom octave. I have, let me see, three pairs of headphones that categorically do, a pair of Sennheiser HD575 a pair of Studiospares M1000 and some RCA earbuds. They really do put out the low octave, all are different but none of them are 3dB or more light below 110Hz.

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1371223439' post='2111425'] I'm not stupid, many may argue that statement but I've got letters behind my name should I choose to use them (I think and they don't all end in T?) I'm a member of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers don't ya know.....which means I can go and sit in the library at Birdcage Walk should I take the fancy but.... .....near field, far field, 'inside the wavelength'....it's all very conflicting, the fact remains it [u][i][b]does[/b][/i][/u] sound better a few feet away than in front of the speaker.....but can anyone explain the reasoning, in simple speak to a dumbass like myself.....acoustics wasn't on the sylabus at college for a mech' eng'. thanks in advance. [/quote] It's exactly the same with all sound sources. If you are within the near field distance then the various parts of the source: ie on a DB the entire body becomes various parts the produce different aspects of the total sound, on a bass speaker the tweeter the port and the driver(s) are acting as single point sources to the mic. Each one produces a part of the sound and getting the mic in exactly the right place to recreate the balance of the sources together as heard from outside the near field distance is almost imporssible to do exactly. This is being confused slightly with Critical Distance. This is the distance away from the source where the reverb level from the surrounding space equals the level from the source. In other words the amount od sound reaching the microphone having bounced off the boundaries to the space you are in is the same as the amount of sound reaching the microphone directly from the source. In almost aqll cases this sounds like poop in a recording. If you are using an omni mic you shouldnt get further away than 1/3 of the critical distance, a cardiod mic changes this to about 1/2 of the critical distance. In the same way audience beyond half the critical distance in a room experience the sound of a band quite differently from audience within this area, any concept of stereo from the band is so muddied by reflection as to be worthless, and unless the room has a short and very even RT-60 they wont hear bass in a tight and refined way. Hint, you arent playing somewhere with a short and even RT-60 time (time taken for the reverb to die down by 60dB if you are wondering) - unless you are in a seriously properly treated studio live room. In fact most venues have a pretty pants critical distance too since they have no absorption other than meat, and that is a very variable and uncontrolled absorption methoid at best .

Too late

Sm57 is fine combined with a DI....

Ok Mic and DI. 'Best' DI for bass is probably a REDDI. Phase issue... 1 put DI and Mic channels up equal volume on the DAW Watch the meter Play the bass. Any note. Or crank the gain until noise is showing in the DAW meter. Move the Mic When the meter on the combined tracks is at its highest you are in phase Time domain doesn't equate to phase quite either. Phasebug is a VST for adjusting phase, there must be something similar for Macs...

Big thanks from me too Mike, interesting comments around the compression, next time I'll try more parallel compression on the guitars, so as to maintain the sense of the performance dynamics more. Didnt really think I'd over sdone the buss comression, theres only a couple of dB being pulled at most on each of the compressors, one is really just pulling the Side up a tad rather than actually doing much compression. Again very interesting thoughts, thanks!

To measure loudness in dB across the spectrum, you need an RTA or Spectrum Analyser. Even a dB meter doesnt tell you the whole story, since it measures at a particular freuqncy, which is generally not where basses are doing there thing. Its utterly irrelevant what wattage the amp is stated to produce, or what it really does, or what the sensitivity is stated (hint, its almost certainly overinflated nonsense). There is also the room you are in, and where in the room you a measuring (due to additive and subtractive nodes). So how can you tell if you rig is loud enough - short answer go try it out in a gig. If you can hear yourself, its loud enough, if you can hear it and it swamps the mix for the audience, then your eq is not helping you much, or the room isnt it. Who knows?

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1371053404' post='2109216'] A bad sounding room is mostly a time domain problem - that is, it is caused by sound waves being reflected (or not) off the various surfaces and interacting with in different ways with the sound waves coming directly from the stage/PA. A frequency domain solution (EQ) can only go so far to fixing it and can only do so in some locations - ie what sounds like it's fixing the problem at the desk may well be making it worse in other parts of the room. Like all solutions that treat the symptoms rather than the cause it can never completely fix the problem. [/quote] This. Eq can be used to tune feedback out of a system, and that is very different from room to room, and PA to PA. Eqing a band can be done a ton of different ways though, just go listen to all the entries in the Mix competition, everyone has the exact same set of stems, the same performance, in the same space to work with, every mix sounds different, some radically so, a huge amount of which is down to how well the mixer understands eq, how well they can use that tool to achieve their preferences. Its by no means all there is to making a mix but it is one of the big tools of mixing (alongside compression and ambience). A good engineer can make a band sound crystal clear, the same band mixed by someone who doesnt know what they are doing will be a mess, with build up in frequency ares that is downright painful as often as not. My biggest single issue with sound engineers is all the volume wars willy waving they like to go through, "Ooooh my new Supraflex 9001 amp will put out 15Kw into my subs, [i]so I must use all that power[/i] even in this far too small venue, because thats a great experience for the punters, and all the girls love a soundguy with a rig that will pound them until they lose control of their bowels.... " Tw*nt!

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1371034043' post='2108813'] This is the major disagreement. It isn't a contest between me and the audience. It's me wanting to give the audience the best performance possible and I can't do that if my bass sounds like crap. [/quote] I completely understand that, but there are (many) venues out there that through whatever set of circumstances outside of the enginners control mean this is not actually possible. Its beyond the skill of any engineer with the tools available in that space to give you what you want and what you want the audience to get at the same time. So, who would you rather had the better deal given that only one half of the equation can be satisfied? [quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1371034043' post='2108813'] Also, I've stepped into the audience and listened to mixes and simply disagree with what sounds better. So should the soundman's opinion carry more weight than mine? I do engineering and production as well. I'm not oblivious to what's a good sound. [/quote] Then get your own engineer, have him learn what you want to sound like out front, pay him good money and he will ensure that that is what you sound like out front. However this may mean in some venues he has to compromise your stage sound even more. Its not ideal, its reality, the answer is not to go back to those venues until the circumstances change (some meaningful acoustic treatment, a rig upgrade, rockinghorse poo, whatever). It may be a good idea to go the IEM route even.... [quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1371034043' post='2108813'] I don't want to make this out like I have a problem with soundmen. I almost never do. My point is just that some soundmen want to control the music and I don't think the musicians should let them if they honestly disagree. But this is all subjective. Without an actual situation to evaluate, it's impossible to say who would be right or wrong. [/quote] You control what goes into the PA, they control what comes out of it. Work together and communicate clearly and assuming everyone is on the same wavelength and has the tools to achieve the results you want (including a space in which it can be achieved) and everything is golden. Your problem appears to be in that you are playing places that for some reason(s), be it the engineers skill or the band and the engineers communication abilities, the amount of time available to realise those requireements or some other variable is not allowing you to get what you want. Its easy to simply blame the engineer, but its not always the engineers fault. Unless you've doen some live engineering (like a few months each in at least three different venues) it can be really hard to see how much the venue itself can make it hard. Having said all that I agree there are also some really poor 'engineers' out there, who really do know very little, and a frightneing number in brighton at the moment who appear to believe that the band hearing each other is incidental to good performance.....

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1371029108' post='2108724'] Bottom line -- I go with whatever the sound guy recommends, but if it doesn't sound good to me, I don't want an argument about it. I don't want to hear that it sounds good "in the audience." To me, that's just saying that he wants his job to be easier when in fact , his job is to give me what I need and then make it sound as good as possible. The "tech" side of it is irrelevant to that fact. [/quote] You are aware though, that there are a large number of factors that may mean it isnt actually possible to make it sound good for you and good for the audience, all sorts iof things to do with the venue acoustics that are outside the control of an engineered hired in on an hourly basis to fix, because they would need decent investment in sorting the acoustic out, or the quality of the PA monitoring, or the number of mics available or who knows (the players kit being utter tosh is also a nightmare). Given that , very common, scenario, which matters more, you, or the audience?