51m0n

I think its fair to say that any company that has specifically designed or tested and approved mixed speaker sizes of their products together (and we have a Berg HT115 + HT210 stack in the house which sounds unbelievablely good). Where people are led astray is matching unsuitable cabs together (115 and a 410 are hideously mismatched in virtually every case I've ever seen - simply in power handling alone). Also people make assumptions that the diameter of the driver in a cab defines the role that cab should play in the sound of a rig (how many 115 for more bottom end grunt paired with a 410 adverts or advice snippets have there been now?). Going back to the HT210 and HT115 I have access to at home, the 210 goes deeper than the 115, the 115 has really great mids, the two together work very nicely, and thats because of the similar capabilities of 2 10" cones vs 1 15" cone. But then the configuration was planned to work well by the designer of the entire system, which isnt always the case, and certainly isnt if you start mixing manufacturers gear. And the simplest rule of thumb that if you want more of something get another one of the same does always bear out.

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1357912301' post='1930456'] I've since tried but wasn't entirely sure what I was doing. It doesn't help that I can't set up the SPAN pug-in on my master bus as I can't use VSTs within Reason. Instead, I tried outputting my track as normal, loading it up in Reaper and applying the K-meter that way. I downloaded and ran Si's track through it as a 'control' test to see how the meter performed, and it was showing peaks way above zero (when set to K-14) which confused me! Hence I gave up and just outputted my track with minimal bus compression/maximization to preserve the dynamics and left it at that... [/quote] Yes, it will do. At K-14 the 0 is effectively -14dbFs When using the full K-Metering concept you would set 0 on that meter to your acoustic 80dB at the listening point (ie where your ears our). Then if you go over 0 its because it got really loud there Like I've said before (and I rather wish I hadnt picked that meter, but something else that was available) it wasnt intended for people to have to learn the entire K-Metering system, just use a meter with the same algorithm behind it.

Like I said I wasnt intending anyone to go through the whole 9 yards, just use a comparable meter for output on the render. The metering on different DAWs definitely can show different results IME. Having said that if you do try the whole Bob Katz approach, it wont hurt you mixes at all.

It means you used the K-meter thing as I hoped everyone would. However I think we have all been a bit screwed by Soundcloud, from what I cna teel part of its 'processing' is to normalise the file for streaming purposes, and that may well have also been done to the file they store as well since downloading mine again it seems to be louder than what I uploaded initially - which seems very odd indeed! Not sure what else that processing has done. I am going to try an difnd the time to do a little research into alternatives to soundcloud, box.com and dropbox can both play mp3s directly, the big question is can they play wavs back directly too, if so they may well be a better alternative, but there may be file size limitations that make them not suitable for higher sample rate larger bit depth files (or they may not play them back streamed like that at all eithyer).

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1357898550' post='1930116'] I don't believe crossovers are involved when you add a Midget to a Compact or a Compact to a Super 12. [/quote] No but specific driver choice is, and that was done very carefully from what I've read and discussed with Alex to minimise the issues as best as possible. In fact a super12 has two same diameter drivers and one tweeter. The tweeter starts above where the drivers stop. Its a designe whreby you again arent mixing driver sizes in the same frequency range.

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1357894353' post='1930042'] Actually, it was something that Alex said on here about the success of the design of the old fashioned 810 fridge cab that led me to change to using two 410s! I've never played thru a BF rig, but unless Alex has found a way around the laws of physics and can make a 12 inch speaker move at the same rate as a 10 inch speaker, there is bound to be a phasing issue (see example of ripples in a pond above). Of course, it maybe that the advantages of the rig outweigh this issue for you, but it is still there..... [/quote] He hasnt broken any laws of physics, he has designed and implemented probably the most carefully thought out crossover in any bass cab available today, which means that the different speakers are handling totally different frequency ranges. On top of this he has very carefully matched the the speakers regarding their motors etc so thatthey are extrememly compatible. Read his website info. BTW a long time ago at the dawn of Barefaced he totally redesigned the crossover in the original BigOne design after he got feedback from me when I tried one out: the cab had a hump at 1KHz that was obvious to me but not him as I play with far brighter strings than he did. It turned out it was due to the mid range driver's internal cabinet (yes it has its own internal space in the cab it doesnt share the volume with the larger driver) not having quite the volume he thought it would when all was said and done IIRC. Now that is commitment to product design! The BigOne has since been superseded by his newer designs which outperform it in pretty much all possible ways, yet still rely heavily on the concept of a dedicated smaller (for better dispersion characteristics) mid range driver. Because this concept is utterly valid and works so well.

Well done

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1357686731' post='1926932'] [url="https://soundcloud.com/#lurksalot/no-second-chance-again"]https://soundcloud.com/lurksalot/no-second-chance-again[/url] I don't know if its any better in real life but it does a bit to me [/quote] That diesnt seem to be the right url to me, it jsut goes to the front page of soundcloud - or am I being dense??

I also think some people definitely carry their personality across genres, they have signature licks and fills and a certain way of feeling the time within a beat that crosses genres. Just to be difficult BBX

The sound I hear is the sum of everything that has happened to make it. I cant always easily seperate timbre (or tone) from phrasing and note choice in my head when thinking about people playing their music, but I think I can probably do so better than most because of my experience with tracking and especially mixing, which is hugely obsessive about tiny minutiae in timbre (tone) and fitting different instruments together and so on. I think anyone without that training/mindset (to be able to listen to timbre first and foremost then note choice & phrasing & performance second, or the other way around at will when tracking rather than mixing) really struggles at all to perceive that the seperation exists at all. It does for sure, but its not always obvious.

Never had a problem with them myself, but none of them has ever really floated my boat either....

Serious suggestion would be try the Ibanez SR series. They are incredibly ergonomic, have necks even the smallest hands can play and depending on the specific version can be very light as well. They also sound pretty darned good out of the box. I know a couple of ladies (neither as diminutive in form as BlueJay - who is truly tiny ) who I have suggested these to and they are very happy owners now who wouldnt change (one of them has more than one SR now because they work so well for her).

Yeah totally agree, I like Molot and strap Density III over the two buss a lot as well, just tickling it but it definitely does something 'good' in that scenario to my ears. Also rather like the old Fishfillets blockfish for parallel compression on drums sometimes, and I dont no how many others, but I still generally look at Reacomp as a starting point and thne see if on eof the others will do the same job better after that if I think its not quite right. Its worked for me for a long time now. Free quality VSTs have meant that you really have to bring your game to mixing now, because its not the plugs you own so much as how you use them that seperates the men from the boys I think...

I think the definitions are vital here, and your snip is the part where I said that how the player actually plucks the string is a vital part of the timbre. But I stand by the fact that I can manipulate the result to blur those differences - certainly within the same general style of playing - to make it something very different if I need to. Compressors, transient designers, limiters, eqs, saturation can all drastically change the timbre at a very very nuanced level with incredibly specific control. They cant change the phrasing (not so much) or the notes (not at all). I think we recognise note choice and phrasing as being of a certain player far more than timbre. By that regard a players playing is unigue, and nuances in these areas of playing are readily identifiable to seasoned listeners for them. So it doesnt matter if player A is using a particular instrumetn, or technique, or signal path, they are almost always recognisable as the player to people on the know. By that regard the 'sound' of a player is completely in their hands. However their timbre can be manipulated to sound absolutely nothing like them normally at all. FInd me a multitrack of Marcus Miller playing fingerstyle (I'd even have a go at a slap line for a laugh), and I'll make his bass timbrely sound similar to Aston 'Family Man' Barret (in a mix at least). I will need to do a great deal of processing to transients, some heavy low pass filtering and a fair amount of saturation and eq to do it, but it could be done. It wouldnt sound like Marcus playing any more, in terms of timbre, but it certainly wouldn't sound like Aston in terms of performance either.

Bass tone is not equivalent to note choice or phrasing, the first is the timbre the second the performance Bass tone is very much to do with how the player strikes/plucks/thumps/pops/thumbs/[i]plays[/i] the string but that is far from exclusively the thing that defines the tone, depending on the amount that physical input is changed by the signal path that follows before it gets to the listeners brain. I have trouble [i]playing[/i] like anyone else, however I can make basses [i]sound[/i] like different basses or even different instrumetns, especially in the studio. So what do you define as bass [i]tone[/i]? For me it has to be the sum of [i]all[/i] the parts that go into it, with the exception of note choice and phrasing, since they dont define timbre but performance. Marcus Miller is a great exponent of slapping, and plays lines that anyone [s]sane[/s] else would play fingerstyle, yet his phrasing and performance are every bit as engaging as the normal fingerstyle or picked line (provided you aren't anti-slapping because, you know, it ain't rock). By that definition, given enough electronics (like those found in a full on PA or studio, or well featured amp with at least a great compressor and limiter and some form of saturation) I can make one bass do a very passable job of sounding just like another bass in a mix, but I cant make one player's performance sound like another player, especially if they have a large difference in skill level or a huge difference in playing style (ie one slaps and the other uses a muted thumb) although in some cases the style can be taken out of the equation at least to a certain extent, it requires plenty of processing, which will usually hide nuances in one or the other style (which may be a good thing). The place where that really falls down IMO though ius when the performance is hugely dependant on fx, like Shep's dubstep stuff, that is probably more down to the processing he applies than any amount of phrasing nuances (possible exception being how far envelope filters are opened, but even then sensitivity changes to the filter could make another player sound very similar). We arent talking a touch of octaver and a chorus here though, his fx setup is hugely complex and very carefully tailored to the material he is creating. Which makes it nigh on unique to him at any given time, and therefore you would probably find it easier to replicate his tone using synths. Of course the argument there is that he isnt really playing bass, merely using a bass as a signal generator for a hugely complex modular synth system, after all I can definitely make another fretless sound like his Roscoes do in a normal mix, just not in his particular choice of musical endeavour.

Love the debate on whats an effect. IMO it all is, [i]if that is how you use it or intend it to be perceived[/i], how you play the bass can be an effect: thumb and palm muting for a section, plucking in a different place to change timbre rather than stomping on an eq pedal, striking the string with your thumb, playing with a pick on the chorus, any of it at all really, using the volume knob to sweep notes in to get a bowing effect. Are these not all really 'effects'? Similarly overdrive, its a choice you make as to how you set up your gain staging if you are getting overdrive from a preamp, but its still effecting the timbre. So strictly speaking whatever you use to alter the basic clean tone of your signal is an effect, even eq. I appreciate a lot of people don't really get on with this idea for one reason or another, and thats ok, but for me thats how it is. I mean Tony Levin's tone on Sledgehammer is massively effected, yet its really just an octaver a compressor and fretless played with a pick, which one of those isnt an effect the way he is using it? In my band I use clean bass mainly, but I am also guilty of using two envelope filters, a meaty distortion, a phaser, a flanger and a chorus, not all at the same time, and sometimes I turn an effect on for just a couple of notes in a two bar groove, but thats because I want those two notes to have that different timbre. And before anyone suggests the punters wont be able to tell, ask Charic about the distortion I use, by gum they can tell a couple of counties away when its on full chat even for a moment . Then again its a 3 piece funk band so I can get away with as many or as few full on effects as I like, I never do anything without the compressor on and the limiter in as well though, although the limiter is only there to catch peaks that are super extreme for protection purposes.

There is an unfortunate element of truth in there (wipes tears from eyes)....

I never used to mind playing Mustang Sally, larely because I could end up wiht a really funky bassline under it compared to a lot of the other stuff I ended up doing...

I played in any old band for a good long while after a long lay off (needed to get some chops back), in fact I played with any body who'd put up with me (they weren't exactly queueing up to get my bass playing services mind), but all the time I was also looking for the right band - that elusive mix of attitude, people, tastes, expectations and time to commit that makes a band actually gel for long enough to do something at least good. 12 years it took, finally got there about 6 months ago, best band I've ever been in for me, and the others, love it, havent even gigged yet (original funk stuff with a lot of improv, takes time to get just the right amount of structure but not too much), planning to do the first gig in late Feb. Can not wait!

Haha, nothing like shiny new toy syndrome is there I have to fight that all the time, I listen to some older mixes and have to remind myself they were done without xyz shiny toy. This is helped by the fact I am involved in a recording project that is getting on for 3 years old now, and one goal is for anything done now to have the same intrinsic sound as things done then, so I use the same old vsts and so on as I did when I started the project. It still sounds excellent to me (and the other collaborators) so its not just about the tools you use, its very much how you are using them. Bootsy's stuff is brilliant for saturation, and adding something subtle but special. But that doesnt mean I dont reach for the Reaper compression probably more than half the time...

Bootsy came first - and usually does, his stuff is chuffing awesome!

I'd drop the lead vocal back a touch, and get a bit more drum and maybe a midge more bass. Tricky balancing between bass and guitar (great guitar sounds though - nice one!) As for the bass sound 'issue' I think you may be over worrying, however if you want you could take the mic signal (which should have less low end) route it to another channel, filter it further and add some grind to that then very very carefully bring that channel up, it wil effect the entire bass sound and you will be surprised by just how much distortion/drive you can put on it. Only thing is to find a drive that includes some form of cab simulation so as not to have nasty top end fizz, cos you dont want that!

Is this one of the ones in this years KVR developer challenge? If so I've had a play, if not its very very like one that is. Either way they are really cool, and make things like circle panning far easier. Nice one, cheers!

[quote name='Rimskidog' timestamp='1357668582' post='1926399'] You know where to find me! ;-) Think of it this way. In a small square room you will have 6 sets of early reflections coming back at you. Because of the different distances from mic, source and yours ears you will hear the gap between the reflections. We hear that as a slap echo. In this room because of the multitude of rounded boulders and lack of parallel walls there are about a thousand early reflections all arriving at your ear within nanoseconds of each other, but there's then no parallel wall to slap them right back to you. Result? Very intense reverb with a short decay. [/quote] So its like very very random diffusion rather than carefully worked out with a slide rule diffusion? Kind of..... Sounds very very cool. And yes I will be working out an excuse for a trip up to yours as soon as I can - dont you worry

[quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1357683201' post='1926834'] i keep seeing k-metering being mentioned.... is this something i should have done for this? or is a preference item? [/quote] I was hoping to try and prevent peoples judgement being swayed by the loudness of a track. I wasnt suggesting everyone go and set up a full k-metering system, but a true k-meter vst will have pretty rigourous definitions to follow on how it meters something allowing us to all get pretty much the same volume - it didnt work though