51m0n

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1356025164' post='1905977'] Me too. In fact, these sorts of discussions are always better when people provide background facts/references to back up their points. Meanwhile, the pathetic attempts to calm things down by diverting our thoughts towards custard/cream/ice-cream/parsnips/whatever have completely overlooked possibly the biggest culinary controversey at this time of year. . . . namely: Brussels sprouts - yes or no? [/quote] Only with decent gravy. But I warn you now, you will regret it.....

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1356023051' post='1905926'] Whereas the fact - which you just confirmed and repeated - that you describe someone as "delusional" is what? A useful contribution in your eyes. Damned from your own words I believe? [/quote] It wasnt even aimed specifically at [i]you[/i]! I didnt describe [i]you [/i]delusional, I described anyone spending that much money on a system in an untreated room as delusional. Its a completely general point. I stand by it utterly. As[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/193794-cd-verses-vinyl/page__view__findpost__p__1895457"] I went on to say[/url], you cant make an objective critique of reproduction in a room that has s%$£ acoustics. Not you as in [i]you specifically Big_Stu, [/i]but you as in everyone[i]. [/i]Jeez! However you definitely pointed the 'no soul' dig directly and specifically at me. Ta for that, that was nice that was. Obviously the Kit Richardson stuff was mixed with a sliderule I'm starting to think we are all better off for the gun control policy of this country with you in it.... [quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1356024138' post='1905960'] I defy you to find one single hint of a thought of an inkling of where I said - or even thought - I was getting the most out of my system? For you to repeat a few times a reply based on something that was never said is the grossly delusional bit. [/quote] So if you cant get the most out of your system, how can you objectively even begin to make comparisons with it? Any comparison you make is going to be highly flawed. They very thing you like about the "sound of vinyl" may actually be because of the room. And CD is in fact doing a better job, but you cant tell becasue the room is wrecking your ability to perceive that. Does that even make sense?

[quote name='Leonard Smalls' timestamp='1356024087' post='1905957'] I've got a Land Rover Defender and a Skoda Octavia 4x4... But then we are in the middle of nowhere, 1000ft up an almost-mountain! [/quote] Land Rover Defender, class vehicle. Half way up a mountain. Quality!

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1356023051' post='1905926'] Whereas the fact - which you just confirmed and repeated - that you describe someone as "delusional" is what? A useful contribution in your eyes. Damned from your own words I believe? Do you also deride 4x4 drivers if they don't live in the country too? Anything else you'd have on your list in your small world? [/quote] In context I think its accurate. I stand by it. If you want to get the most out of quality hifi, dont put it in a crap sounding room. Untreated living rooms sound crap. Its pretty delusional if you think you are getting the most out of that gear in that room in almost all cases I can think of. Enjoy it; owning it, dusting it, and listening to it, by all means. Do I think its a useful bit of input though? Hell yes, otherwise I wouldn't have said it. Are you deluding yourself yet???? I of course 'have no soul' and am in fact incapable of appreciating music from an emotional point of view. In fact these days I just stick the adat output straight into the socket in my *&^% - that way I can enjoy all the 1's and 0's in the miost pure state possible. You dont drive a 4x4 as well do you - Range Rover Sport by any chance ....

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1356021512' post='1905885'] I think - IIRC - that it started off with something about you're wrong to have spent so much on a system if the room is in isn't as perfect as I say it should be" (I paraphrase). You gave up trying to help when it became a science competition between you and others as to who knew the most facts.... that was a good few pages ago. Since almost all threads on here are a general consensus of opinion I fail to see why a simple opinion of "I value the perceived "warmth" of vinyl" - as it often described, should become a brain-washing session. [/quote] I said:- [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1355158248' post='1894777'] IMO anyone running a hifi worth more than £5000 in an untreated room is delusional.... Hell £2000 [/quote] I still think that. That really p***ed you off though. I dont suppose you'll ever forgive me How about you have a parsnip with some clotted cream, maybe that will help ? There was no science competition, there were some pointers as to how sampling works, and the processes that mix and mastering engineers go through for max volume which ruins playback (in everyone here's opinion I think) on any medium its then replayed on. There has subsequently been some interesting stuff about how the bones in our head may be affected by beating of frequencies above the threshold of hearing, which I reckon is a bit tenous to be honest, but I will look into it to see if I can find corroboration from other sources (I said I was fascinated by this stuff - I wasn't lying), since thats the first even remotely compelling argument I have heard for higher sampling rates other than the improved size of the transition band filter. It was all about helping. Shame you wouldnt give it the time of day. You are welcome to your opinion, but for many people the "warmth of vinyl" is just a really wishy washy term that doesnt actually mean a lot. One person's concept of warm is often very different from anothers: some consider this is something in the low end, others the top end, sometimes it is expressed as nothing to do with either - its all abit meaningless as a result. So there are other descriptions that can come into play. You dont seem to like them very much. No one is trying to brain wash anyone. Everyone is trying to illuminate and become illuminated. No one else but you started taking pot shots at anyone for their input. Hope you feel very 'clever' .....

Must say, I've never measured the frequency of clotted cream on my parsnips, must go and get the oscilloscope out right now. Igor!!!!!!!!!!

I like pasrnips , they are superior to carrots in every measurable way.... Except flavour, but who counts that? Ruddy scientists....

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1356018459' post='1905804'] You really can't help yourself can you? Sorry if I haven't pandered to your superiority complex. [/quote] Or is that your inferiority complex? What was it other than "I like vinyl so there" you were bringing to the conversation anyway?? [quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1356019002' post='1905817'] I wasn't aware that anyone had, just that it's different. What I can't abide is the train of thought of "Oh, they're still not agreeing with me, OK then - I'll throw another 400+ words at them until they do." I mean - even Spock was a man of few words! [/quote] Yup, thats all it was BS, bs to bs BS. Not meant to try and help. Obviously... As you were, carry on, yawn...

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1356009021' post='1905599'] Therein is the rub! 11 pages of pat-a-cake pat-a-cake; who's knows what, who can refer to the most facts, as though it's a battle of wills as to who's going to prove factually, no matter how many repetitive pages it takes, what is - like all music forms - a matter of personal taste as to what sounds better to some people, until the other person with other figures concedes. It's like going to a gig & a punter says "It's too loud", you wouldn't reply with "No it isn't, my decibel meter says otherwise" There's more & more of such on this forum (as has been commented on by others, not me, in recent days). If it's not here it's repeated ad nauseum on whether someone should mix 10" drivers with 15s, no matter how recently the same answer was given to a similar thread shortly previously. You can bang on until you've made it 111 pages of facts & figures, you will not change the personal preference of the media folk choose to prefer for their own reasons. [/quote] If you dont like the forum go and do something else better instead? People will discuss ad nauseum the best bass for metal, whether driver diameter has any relevance on a speaker cabs depth, what are the best strings for jazz, is music theory worth learning, is digital as good as analoque, who has the biggest and bestest big muff, do you like carrots? [size=5]It is what this place is for!!!!!!!!![/size] If people back up their position with external data your attitude is "Not interested, you are being souless and not just feeling it man" where as mine is, "Thats interesting can I understand where this comes from, does any of it not ring true to me". For your information I have had my mind changed on several subjects by this forum, I have allowed myself to be 'educated' by people who clearly have looked into the areas they are most interested in further than I had, and had a far deeper understanding of the subjects at hand. Again - I believe that is what this place is for. And I appreciate everyone on here who takes the time to try and make their case convincingly and with whatever they need to back up their position. You do know there are really well defined dB levels for volumes at gigs, using specific scales of metering that will reliably tell you if a gig really is too loud dont you? And no, nowhere near enough FOH engineers care to carry a dB meter to check - or seem capable of using some common sense about it either I grant you... So back on topic I had no intention of even attempting to change peoples preferred listening media at all. I am only trying to point out that their attempts to suggest that CD is the worse medium for the task of reproducing music may actually be somewhat flawed. If they read up, have a think, and can get their heads around the points being made on all sides they may be better educated as to why vinyl is their preferred listening medium so often. Doesnt make them wrong to listen to vinyl, doesnt make any difference to me if they prefer wax cylinder.

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1356001541' post='1905454'] I already did say, & also clarified that it's not just you; that so many people have come on here about what they enjoy about their vinyl, or their CDs - or various other formats. And all they get back is science, and more science. [b][i]For the role you have in music ....... you have no soul man[/i][/b], not going from any example you've shown within the limited sphere of these 11 pages of this anyway. Time to dig the Xmas carols out................. on CD................for enjoyment!!!!!!!!! [/quote] Nonsense. Thats a pretty personnal dig Stu - otherwise I wouldnt bother responding at this point. For the role I have had in this thread I have no soul, because there is no soul in engineering. The OP was an engineering related statement 'CD is better if I turn the trable down on my system, because that makes it sound more like my vinyl' - to paraphrase. My responses have been all about why he may feel that way, what is the reason why that is not necessarily just simply because of CD, or even digital per se, and that the general flow of "vinyl great, cd sucks" comments following should probably have a huge bunch of caveats about them that weren't there. I've not even really put forward opinion, so much as fact. When mixing/mastering [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/193794-cd-verses-vinyl/page__view__findpost__p__1897419"]as I already posted here[/url], its all about inutiion, and emotional impact and I guess what you are calling 'soul'. In order to be able to make choices about what should be heard and when - as I stated before - its all about emotional impact. That is the 'soul' part of mixing. Please reread my extended essay on the subject. Like I said, if you insist on commenting and being derogatory about me and how I achieve the mixes I do, at least have the decency to read what I am writing in the context of the post and topic. [b][i]There is no soul in engineering[/i][/b], but even given that I have stated, repeatedly, that whatever you enjoy most is what is best for you, whatever the reason, so personal enjoyment trumps better engineering in my book. Innaccuracies and misunderstanding about how sampling works dont. [b][i]There is masses of soul in mixing[/i][/b], because it is all about translating the emotional content of the songwriters and artists performance into the most emotionally compelling version of that performance in stereo that we can. In order to do which the more knowledge the mixer has about all the technicalities involved the better the results they will be able to get repeatedly.

[quote name='Monckyman' timestamp='1355999682' post='1905415'] Band I work with a lot as a monitor man recently changed their bassist, who likes a quieter vol on stage (ampeg 810 rig). The Marshall stack fixated guitarist has recently changed to a Blackstar combo, (with power soak,so sod the amp on full sh*te),and the drummer has a new range of custom snares. All these things make the onstage sound a LOT better, clearer, less EQing to do, and much more presentable for the FOH to manage. Now these guys all know what they are up to, and so did the techies, but sometimes you fall in to ways that don`t help the sound effort and it only becomes apparent when you inadvertently improve it by changing out some equipment. Edit to say, obviously larger[b][i] acoustically tragic venues[/i][/b] exist and task us all,but other than employ the best engineers with loads of P.A there`s not much else to do. But if you get the stage wrong, you won`t get the FOH right, and that applies all the way down to pub bands. Be Vigilant Comrades! [/quote] Brilliant !

Stu, art is art, music is art. Music [i]reproduction[/i] is science and engineering. I'm really not sure what your problem is with every post I make about it now. Is it the science/engineering slant? If you cant be bothered to read my posts and at least try and take them on board a bit, dont bother commenting on them I'm done in here. Enjoy the vinyl chaps......

[quote name='thumperbob 2002' timestamp='1355998183' post='1905385'] To put the blame upon the band or guitards etc for big gigs is missing the point. Totally the sound guys fault, worked with some great ones and unfortunately some bad ones. Same in any profession- except the legal profession where they are all crap! You can blame the band in part for smaller gigs though. Give the sound man a Zoom H2 in soundcheck and check the recording for what you want and Communicate! Will change when the punters come in anyway ( usually gets better )-or so I convince myself. [/quote] Absolutely - up to a point. (My earlier comment was regarding smaller gigs in pubs) If the band on stage present the sound engineer with way too much level and spill (especially bass end spill) it can effectively tie his hands, even in surprisingly large venues. Its a tricky job getting stage levels right fo rthe band so they can all hear each other and still not make it very hard for the soundguy. Inner ear monitoring can really help with this (naturally) - but only if the guitarist doesn still require his 412 to be cranked up to face melting volumes....

The design of the string and the exact materials used definitely changes the flexibility at a particular frequency. I find d'Addarios to be as stiff as steel rod compared to the same sized DR Hi-Beams. Having said that I think those Hi-Beams are a bit too floppy for me and generally use DR Lo-Riders. They have the same nominal construction as the d'Addarios (hex core, round wrap wire) but definitely have a lot more give in them.

If there are two frequencies that cause another 'beating' freuquency lower down, that lower frequency is really there, the air is actually moving at that frequency, our ears aren't making it up, so it isnt only there because you hear the two original frequencies and imagine the third, it is caused by the two original frequencies, and therefore will be recorded by any digital system, whereby the beating frequency is below the Nyquist frequency. So it isnt magically 'lost'. That is a part of why the sampling theory holds true. And why any such audible result of higher harmonics that we cant actually hear is nevertheless reproduced accurately. A young chap out in the countryside may [i]just[/i] be able to discern the presesnce of 20000Hz (although its unlikely if he's older than about 7 or 8 years), but certainly wont be able to hear it [i]easily[/i]. No one can, and no one has ever been found who can hear above 20KHz and can actually get more than a 50/50 guess rate of success at telling if such frequencies are being played. And people have been trying to find someone who could for about 100 years now. Bats hear up to 150KHz, humans hear at best up to 20KHz and this fades from about the age of 8 onwards. The bit depth part is also not really accurate. It is suggesting that there is no discernable noise from vinyl. Which is rubbish, there is mechanical noise, rumble, yada yada yada, on top of thermal noise in vinyl too. Quantisation 'noise' is typically only heard on material with truncated bit depth that is undithered and had no noise-shaping applied. Only on very very quiet parts of the source even then, you are talking about the last bit in the range, which is 6dB, at the bottom of a 96dB scale. With dithering at the time of mastering ad noise-shaping which moves any noise to outside the areas humans hear best anyway its not going to be discernable by anyone on a normal hifi in a normal room. Dithering is equivalent to anti-aliasing in video if you like. It effectively smooths the edges that we might have been able to discern. It is done when converting from 24bit final mix to 16bit CD quality master. Where you might just notice something different between the 24bit and 16 after mastering is the very end of a reverb trail that completely fades out. It may be ever so slightly shorter on a dithered 16 bit representation. Anyone here have a room that is quieter than -90dB when everything is switched on and nothing playing back? I though the general opinion was specialised rooms for listening weren't practical? In which case the quantisation noise from 16bit isnt practically noticeable. Anyone here care to show us a recording with a dynamic range wider than 90dB??? If your CD has a dynamic range of 20dB you arent going to be able to notice any dithering in reality. The noise floor of great vinyl is only about 70dB anyway. So it cant reproduce that recording either...

Heavy handed drummers are as much to blame as overly zealous guitarists with 4x12s or even 2x12s cranked. Best guitar sound in a band mixing itself for a 300 seater venue the guitarist had a tiny littel Fender 6watt tube amp and he was smoking hot, brilliant tone and completely under control....

Best sound I've heard in a large(ish) venue ever was Travis at Brighton Center. I'd just about given up hope for live sound but they had it exactly nailed, exceptional sound all night, brilliant guy on FOH mixing throughout, fair sounded like the album. Next best was probably Dr John at The Dome (usually only average due to it being a rather difficult room). Every time I go to London to see a gig in a larger venue it sounds rubbish, most small club venues have a soundguy bereft of a clue as to what to do with a live band, and most bands in pubs are just waaaaayyyy too loud...

I prefer DRs to d'Addarios too. Hi-Beams for me, but they feel far nicer to player than the d'Addarios that were on my Roscoe when I first got it.

Yeah, definitely, I dont need to be getting het up about this, stop it at once And dont knock midi goldfish - its the future...

Oh well done Bilbo!

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1355918759' post='1904391'] Those other kits would cost a lot more and you'd get better quality and if you spend enough you eventually might get top quality a bit cheaper than buying ready made, depending upon how much you've learned in the mean time. Sadly the days when DIY was a cheaper option are just about gone. [/quote] I know this is getting off topic here, but the seventh circle kits are considered about as good as it gets by very very very many people in the studio world, and better than the vast majority of mic pres available at any price. They are expensive, especuially by bassist terms, but very significantly cheaper than the original items they are based upon (about half price).

Errr, no you can definintely DIY mic pres that far outsrips the quality and reliability iof anything with a Behringer sticker on it. It just wont be cheaper I'm afraid:- http://www.seventhcircleaudio.com http://www.soundskulptor.com/ http://www.fivefishstudios.com http://www.hamptone.com/index_old.html All of which will completely blow away said behringer unit. And hurt your wallet a lot more I'm afraid

Excellent [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable-gain_amplifier"]desciption of VCA here [/url]in the In Sound Mixing Consoles section. Cant be bothered to paraphrase it here - bit busy right now.... Dayummmm you guys are quick!

Doh, I meant slap all three strings with the right hand What a wally !

You missed out tapping, which is definitely another way to play. Not done well by many IMO, but you can certainly get sequencer like arpeggios out with it, and done right it can even be rather funky too... Plus there is Bootsy's octave slapping, whereby you hold octaves with the left hand (muting the middle string) and slap all three strings with the curved fingers of the left hand (slapping as in like you might slap a pert bottom, i.e not with a thumb ). That can sound immense if you do it right, which is to say far gentler than you may think you need to.