51m0n

I'm certainly not suggesting anyone bother to adopt the full K-metering approach, merely that a KMeter is a very well defined meter of output, and so [i]could[/i] be used to get comparable level between mixes from the get go, making judging a tad easier....

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1352974826' post='1869922'] Never heard of K-Metering (although I've heard of Bob Katz), but I'll read the article you linked to and learn more about it - see, I'm learning new stuff already! I pretty much exclusively use Propellerhead Reason as my DAW, which although now features its own brand of plug-in (called Rack Extensions) still doesn't act as a VST host. No matter - that's my problem not yours, so I'll have to find a way around it. I do have a copy of Reaper and Voxengo SPAN (which I use as freq analyser on final mixes), so I guess I could render mixes and check them using SPAN until I hit the golden 0db at K14 (have no idea what that means at present, but I'll find out ). I also have this which might be of use in this context - I dunno? [url="http://shop.propellerheads.se/product/flower-audio-loudness-meter/"]http://shop.propelle...loudness-meter/[/url] Anyway, leave it with me and I'll do some recce to get my head around it. [/quote] Hmmm, it may be possible to get something close using an RMS meter but the averaging isnt necessarily the same as a 'proper' KMeter.

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1352974350' post='1869905'] I'll see if either of these will run with ProTools. Although... I can't help but think part of the the process is mastering and people should be able to use whatever tools are available to them to make the mix sound as good as it can. It could help show up what mastering tools sound better in certain situations etc [/quote] Then we can have mastering competition after the mix competition. But the problem isnt what you do to make the song sound fab, I didnt say you couldnt do whatever you want, I'm merely saying the final average RMS level shouldnt be more than xdB so that all the mixes can be judged equally. If you get it louder it will sound better, but it may not actually be a better mix, and the danger is you end up with a batlle for loudness not quality, since loudness trumps quality fo rthe people voting every time, and they wont want to get the levels exactly the same for themselves. Clearly some judicious use of compression (series, parallel, multiband - whatever floats your boat) and eq on the master buss may get you a more consistent average level, and a louder perceived volume, I cant stop that, and I wouldnt, but if we can do something to get the playing field more even then we should. Getting mixes up to commercial volume isnt the point of the competition, loudness isnt actually better, and a loudness cometition is completely opposite to what this should be about. After all, I dont care how loud you can get it at home, a commercial mastering suite run by a pro will get it louder with less artifacts, but thats still no tthe point....

Yeah I think we'll set the poll up on the last week of January. I think that gives everyone enough time to work on things. Stems from the Composition Competition thread will be cool on occasion for sure, but the more of a live band we can get ( at least half of the time I'd like stems to have a core live band element) the better. There are very specific and trickier issues involved IMO, with mixing a less than ideally tracked live band than there ever is when mixing something with EZDrummer or similar. Can I suggest we use something like a K-Meter across the stereo master out to get a maximum level of 0dB at K14? I know that is going to sound like total gobbledegook to some of you but its a pretty simple idea, [url="http://www.digido.com/how-to-make-better-recordings-part-2.html"]K-Metering is a system designed by Bob Katz[/url], who is nothing if not a mastering legend. In his full on world he uses it to ensure that he masters to a sensible level, and that involves all sorts of calibration and stuff that I dont suggest we use at all. What it also gives us is a level measuring system that is based upon average volume rather than peak volume, and that means that we can try and stop the loudest mix always being considered the best. If everyone mixes to 0dB K14, then the mixes are going to sound almost the same volume, and the poll will have a lot more meaning. It will also make none of the mixes ready for release on a CD without a mastering stage, but thats probably to be expected, we're running a mix competition not a mastering or loudness competition! ANyone needing a K-Meter vst (windows or mac) can download the excellent (and free!) [url="http://www.voxengo.com/product/span/"]Voxengo SPAN[/url], a superb metering tool that no self respecting mix engineer should be without IMO... Or there is [url="http://code.mzuther.de/kmeter/"]K-Meter by MZuther[/url] which is a windows only VST meter. Its a fair bit simpler to get your head around than SPAN. Either way just ensure that its the last VST on your master buss and mix to 0dB on the K14 stting and you'll be there.

Easy to click on links to the various mixes:- redstriper https://soundcloud.com/redstriper-mix-stems/no-2nd-chance-un-mastered-mix butlerk02 [url="https://soundcloud.com/butlerk02/2nd-chance"]https://soundcloud.c...rk02/2nd-chance[/url] 51m0n [url="https://soundcloud.com/51m0n-1/no-2nd-chance/s-6Tbvx"]https://soundcloud.c...-chance/s-6Tbvx[/url] OldG [url="https://soundcloud.com/lucy-hastings/bc-mix-final"]https://soundcloud.c...gs/bc-mix-final[/url] RockfordStone [url="https://soundcloud.com/robslusarmusic/no-2nd-chance"]https://soundcloud.c...c/no-2nd-chance[/url] Skol303 [url="http://soundcloud.com/skol-mixes/second-chance-by-tacsi"]http://soundcloud.co...chance-by-tacsi[/url] lurksalot [url="https://soundcloud.com/lurksalot/no-second-chance-again"]https://soundcloud.c...nd-chance-again[/url] charic [url="https://soundcloud.com/thebrokensky/no-second-chance-bc-mix-comp"]https://soundcloud.c...nce-bc-mix-comp[/url] Have a listen through, pick your favourite then vote above. Simples! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We have a photography competition and a composition competion, [url="http://basschat.co.uk/user/969-butlerk02/"]butlerk02[/url] suggested a mix competition the other day, and [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/191647-useful-recording-resources/"]on this thread[/url] that idea seems to have got some traction. So the idea is whoever wants to take part can download stem tracks of a chosen song and using whatever tools they have at their disposal make the best sounding mix of what is there that they can. To make this more interesting and useful to fellow BC members, if someone has some tracks they would like to see people have a go at they can post the stems on Soundcloud and we can use them to work on. If we run out off sets of stems from BCers there are plenty of resources for that sort of thing on the web, [url="http://www.cambridge-mt.com/MixingSecrets.htm"]here for instance[/url]. If someone produces a great mix, or has a good idea or whatever they should be prepared to divulge how they go tthe result they did, what VSTs they used, settings thereof, any cool tips and tricks, pics can't hurt either. Xmas being super busy we'll do the actual vote in January so no one has to panic. However our own [url="http://basschat.co.uk/user/2865-redstriper/"]redstriper[/url] has been smart enough to get in there first and upload a set of stem tracks onto SoundCloud for the first mix. You can [url="http://soundcloud.com/redstriper-mix-stems"]download them here[/url], I already have, and its really typical of a set of tracks recorded at a home studio - which is perfect fodder for this type of competition IMO, anyone can mix a track recordded in a top studio by a genius tracking engineer, you just put the faders up and it sdone, this may require a little more effort though.... If anyone uses a mix from these 'competitions' its only fair to credit the mixer on any download or streaming site or media that the mix appears on, since who knows it could lead to some work for the person involved. Also if anything cool does crop up I reserve the right to post about it in the Recording Blog, and rip off the idea mercilessly (thats the whole point after all). Remember this is a mix competition rather than a remix competition, by all means be creative, but the focus is on getting the song that was tracked to sound as good as possible, not rewrite it. Thats not to say adding the odd interesting extras isnt allowed, just that a complete rewrite isnt really what we are after.... Enjoy!

Or the price for that kind of performance will come down. Actually I personally dont think the price of real quality preamps is likely to fall much further, the parts are expensive for real colour preamps (ie top quality transformers) and the market for them is if anything getting bigger I reckon. ADA conversion of the highest quality is still expensive, although a lot of people aren't sure that its worth the money you pay for it, I've never had the chance to compare several top end D/A converters so I couldnt comment. Other than that low latency is difficult, its always been difficult, and will remain difficult - its not about CPU speed in the main these days. Thats why RME roll their own chips, because its the only way to guarantee performance on this scale. Still I think you will pay thi smuch for this level for the forseeable, but you will get more and more features for your money....

Nah, you dont need a singer mate, they are just baggage

Nice and nasty mate, they'll be fine, perfect for people wanting to learning how to eq out the tricky stuff IMO, and a great example of what people home recording will find they have to deal with. Particularly evil hi-hat sound IMO, I mean, thats nasty that is Nice one!

Having the best time with a band I have had since I was in my early twenties... We haven't even finished writing one track yet, but then we have ideas for at least fifteen. Rehearsal/writing evenings are just a complete pleasure, with lots of banter, laughter and fun (and playing). The entire band are up for attempting anything (they may regret that, although they have taken to funk in 5/4 rather well, which surprised me no end). Happy like a happy happy thing....

[quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1352897046' post='1868956'] [i][b]5imon - RME kit is just brilliant - great quality hardware and rock solid drivers.[/b][/i] Loads of people on here swear by their Zoom B3s - have you considered that? As far as software goes then I've used Amplitube and thought it was alright but nothing more. Studio devil do something similar and I've always preferred that to the big name stuff (SVX, AmpliTube etc...). Linky: [url="http://www.studiodevil.com/products/virtual_bass_amp_pro/"]http://www.studiodev...l_bass_amp_pro/[/url] there's also a scaled down demo version too, so you can (legally) try before you buy... EDIT - it needs a DAW host though (Cubase, ProTools etc...) so might not be for you. Still really good though. [/quote] RME are unique to my knowledge. they are the only audio interface company rolling their own USB chips. WHich gives them a huge advantage in terms of performance as they can tailor their chip design and driver code far more tightly than any other manufacturer. The result is the best performing, most unlikely to go wrong USB interface you can get. And one of the most expensive (not the most expensive, Metric Halo gear costs more, which you are spending on ADA and the analogue side). RME kit is used by a lot of major broadcasters (obviously their full on MADI range rather than the small fry stuff like the UCX) because its so damned reliable and robust. I've spent a long, long time deliberating which interface I wanted to get, this took a lot of time, which was lucky, because the outlay is seriously significant to me.... It better be bloody incredible!

Does Soundcloud store full on wavs then? I know it streams them as low bitrate mp3 style stuff, which is annoying, but if you download the file do you get the original? If so that should do the job. Might be a good time to start a specific thread in the recording section to declare what we are doing and say the January competition is starting early (RS being as keen as a whippet)??

The most crucial part of anything like this is latency IMO. DSP fx units have tiny tiny latency, just a couple of ms is normal - thats the nature of the beast 1ms is equivalent to 34cm of distance (speed of sound). So if you are used to standing within a few of feet of your rig, then you can work out you normal latency (ie how long you wait to hear what your fingers just did). If your soundcard, PC VST/FX software roundtrip adds significant latency (more than a few ms) you will find it distracting, and will have to work to get used to it. Personally I really really hate latency, it makes my head hurt, and makes my playing suffer. I just bought an RME UCX, which has the lowest latency of any interface you are likely to see (stupid numbers, really just incredible turn around times). It costs a lot of money, but if it delivers as it should then it will be totally worth it to me (its not just the latency I'm after!). Once I've used oti fo ra bit I'll review it....

Does anyone know where we can host files for this? Normqally I use something like wetransfer to move files between myself and anyone I'm mixing for, but that is possibly a little tricky in this case?

Excellent! That means there wont be too much work for you to do, which is ace! Like the groove on that one a lot, should be a nice challenge Sounds like drums, guitar, hammond or similar (real one or not?), vocal, backing vocal(s). Have I missed anything? If that lot is recorded "Live from the front room" there is going to be monstrous amounts of spill I would think, that is definitely going to present people with some serious issues/choices - all good!

Wow, a signal with a DC offset, like about 99.8% of music then (if you measure a short enough amount of it, like half a cycle)

[quote name='rogerstodge' timestamp='1352831858' post='1868110'] Whats a "DAW" ? [/quote] Digital Audio Workstation, so something like Reaper, Logic, Protools, Cubase etc etc You could theoretically manage a lot of what I said in Audacity, but its severely flawed for this type of work IMO.

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1352829225' post='1868068'] Yes , sorry Ricky Minor .[i] I find drinking plenty of alcohol at lunchtime is the best way to get through my afternoon work[/i] . [/quote] Haha!

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1352826551' post='1868014'] I am currently looking over a list of the U.K top 40 singles from early November 1992 and it includes at the very least 23 tracks with proper bass guitar parts on them ( there maybe more as a few of the tracks are so obscure by now that I can't remember anything about them and don't have time right now to have a listen ) , including a few with fairly up -front bass lines such Would I Lie To You by Charles And Eddie [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=B-nSdyHhZeM"]http://www.youtube.c...e&v=B-nSdyHhZeM[/url] Complex bass guitar parts were , on the whole , more common in bygone times although they are not unheard of now in certain genres . And that Whitney Houston Track , while it might not be to everybodies taste , has in fact got a prominent bassline played by Ricky Lawson on his Ken Smith 5 string . How can you cite that as an example of pop music without bass guitar in it ? The bass is massive on that track . Try listening to it . [/quote] Yes, now you're getting my point - there are some tracks with and some without. And if you keep digging you'll find about a 50/50 ish split each way I'd guess, pure guess looking at the spread in the number 1's. And with the rise of hip hop and dance music and EDM/electronica in the last 20 years you may interptret this as a lessening in the amount of bass guitar in pop. These same changes maybe causing people to rely on simpler lines - which are generally better anyway. All of which depends upon what constiutes pop music in your eyes as well of course (lets nto go there). If you go back another 10 years to 1982 the only number one I can see that I would be pretty sure has synth bass is Kraftwerk's The Model. Although Renee and Renata may have had I'm not prepared to subject myself to that song for anything! Re the Whitney track, personally I never got beyond the intro, because I cant stand the over souling vocal style, having just had a listen, yup there is a perfectly standard, reasonable IMO not particularly massive, or immense (that wouldnt fit) bassline on there. Nothing amazing, just good solid playing, but it couldnt be, since its role in the song is pure support, there is absolutely no room anywhere in that arrangement for any fireworks other than the vocal and the solo. It could have easily been a synth part IMO, there is absolutely nothing, at all, to me, that make that bassline have to be played on a bass guitar.

I was kind of expecting them to demand he commit some form of ritual suicide at the end to atone for such a general dishonouring of everyone involved....

To be useful fo rthis they would need to be full sets of stems. I'm not sure of your tracking process, but the wav file of each instrument needs to be full length on every track (from 0:00:00 to end of song). That way everything lines up time wise with how it was tracked when imported into any other DAW. With no fx on at all (raw as a bald head in 1976). Just about every DAW lets you export stems like this, I dont know the procedure for Cubase exactly. Worse case scenario you have to render each track seperately by hand with all fx off. Which is a huge PIA!

Or load the original into a DAW and pitch shift it up an octave, then put a low pass filter on it at around 300Hz, the bass line will pop right out in your face - easy. Next step, slow it down to half speed,looping any note you arent sure of, and transcribe away....

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1352820483' post='1867850'] ....That's Xenochrony. And I've done that on a number of tracks.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenochrony#cite_note-0"][size=2][1][/size][/url][/sup] [/quote] Yes, but you're certifiable mate just like FZ Actually given a couple of shandies I can manage a fair bit of Xenochrony on me own...

Hahahahahahahaaahhaahahha....haaaha.aa.ahhh...aha...ummm.... That didnt really just happen did it?

That (listened to Turkey Shore Road, Politician, Scrap Heap) sounds fine to me RS, nice range of styles, some horns too, cool! Not at all bad mixes either. People are going to have to put in some time and effort to get much better - but isnt that the point?

I do really like the fills on the bass in this though.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKxodgpyGec