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[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1349957848' post='1832674'] And the point I was trying to make was that people have been listening to Autotuned vocals for years before they were aware of it. I bet lots of those complaining about it have heard plenty of tracks with it own that they were simply unaware it was there. [/quote] +1 How could you ever know if it were done carefully?

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1349882135' post='1831752'] Si - yes, it's a massive room. I think the reason I got good at doing that particular band is we would record every practise, and each time when I got home I would tweak the mix slightly. I never changed the recording set up from how it was to begin with so it would improve each time. It's a massive room but very bassy. The bass rig in there has all of the low end taken out and still sounds huge. I think my point was that technology is opening doors to more people, and it's not always a negative thing - in my example I put together a cheap digital recording set up and use it to capture live performances, rather than create ultra-processed pop-mush EDIT: Sorry, forgot about seperation. There is absolutely no attempt made to seperate the amps. We're not using headphones, just set up to practise with a mic ont he guitar cab, DI on bass, 12 mics on the drums/room. [/quote] Nice stuff. And absolutely fine for what you do - if everything is captured live then obviously spill becomes less and less of an issue. However were a band to come in who needed a lot of 'help' with overdubs and drop ins, then its not longer a useable set up, since the seperation is then required or you get spill drop outs where ever there is a drop in (iff you get me). Horses for courses.

Tasteful bit of fretless:- [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q50xzhDO9lI[/media] Nice spotlight moment for him at about 1.48 and 2.48

You cant say without hearing it. The 'action' that the compressor engages with may be quite slow, in which case it coudl be fine. Depends a lot on you and the circuit and how it feels to you.... Also if you have no limiter to catch excessive peaks then you will likely need to go a little faster in the attack to keep them under control....

Ahhhh, a trick question, depends on the player blah blah (neatly sidestepping the question) In reality, as fast as possible to 100ms will cover it, longer is fine though, you just are unlikely to go there IME. Usually I find myself around the 40 to 75ms range, depending on the day, how new the strings are, whatever else might make it feel right....

Hey if its good enough fo rthe Stones its good enough for anyone... http://mixonline.com/recording/interviews/audio_rolling_stones_start/index.html

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1349876070' post='1831626'] Si - this [url="http://soundcloud.com/kilta/sets"]http://soundcloud.com/kilta/sets[/url] was done live on about 14 channels, no acoustic treatment but a massive room. Obviously the lack of vocal helps a lot, but I reckon it sounds pretty good. Hopefully not what you'd refer to as a demo but i'll defer to your superior judgment Surely the "vibe" you get from tape is all to do with the sound of recording to tape, rather than the performance going on to the tape. [/quote] Sounds fine mate. Very nice! A few questions then, you had a big room, really really big? The bigger the space the less treatment you need. Hence this sounds fine, and the more spill you can live with - because the spill sounds natural and enhances the overall sound. How much did you try and seperate the amps from the drums? How long have you been recording in that room, and how much have you tweaked the setup to get this result? Would you honestly say it was more or less time than you could reasonably expect to spend in a commercial project/demo studio? How much have you done in the mix to sharpen this up? How long has that taken? Its a fine mix of a perfectly acceptable recording, and the result sounds fantastic, but the point is it was done by you for the sheer love of it, and every step along the way was a learning experience validated by the facts that you love it, you learn every time you record, and you are saving yourself tonnes of cash. You cant run a commercial studio like that though, because no one wants to spend the kind of time (therefore money) it takes to go along step by step - you need a result yesterday, you need it to be killer every time. Nevertheless other than your skills the biggest asset you have is that space to record in!

You want to track a band truly live all at once, then there is a world of difference between a great job and a demo. Starts with the live space, its got to be easily big enough (which will look far bigger than you would think in most cases), and properly acoustically treated or it wont sound great. There must be seperation of the instruments, to a degree that is dependant upon the intended mix, but you cant really have a load of bass swamping the low end on everything, or have the singer in the same room really. It can be done, but boy have you got to get everything right on the way down to tape to be able to live with it come mix time. Typically guitar and bass amps are in their own seperate isolated spaces - difficult if the guitarist uses feedback alot (guess where he's going to be - yup in the isolated room with his rig, and to hell with his hearing, but he still needs line of sight to the band to be able feel the connection with them. The instruments must sound perfect in the room (whichever room they are in), from every mic that may be picking them up, and the playing has to be perfect too. Your going to be using upwards of 16 tracks to get down a drums, guitar, (probably guide) vocal, bass and keys like this - easily. Does this sound quick or cheap to anyone? Didnt think so.... Sounds like we have stepped out of the land of the demo somewhat to me!

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1349862679' post='1831353'] Manring is s freak. [/quote] +1, but a lovely chap too, hd a nice chat with him when he played in London a couple of years ago, and he couldnt be more humble and genuine.

First and only take, single bass guitar, no overdubs, doesnt sound possible to me either:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKIh_b9tdtE Something can sound perfect, in that it is absolutely spot on from start to finish, and be performed by a human. This is different from gridiron production, in that the human act of applying a groove/feel is there, and that groove/feel is manipulated throughout the performance to further the emotive response in the listener. Its still perfect playing, it just hasnt been rendered less emotive by the use of this production technique in order to get things in time at the expesne of expression. Analogue recording, is not what allows this to be captured, the choice of the recordist and producer are what allow this to be captured.

I think applying the pressure of "This will be done in one take" makes things sound ten times worse, take twenty times longer and stress everyone out. Like anything there is a level of skill and due diligence required to perform drop ins really well to tape. On a DAW you can preprogram your drop in points with absolute accuracy, or just retake and then mix the takes after ward to ensure the join is seamless. The point is in order to capture an artist performing well the engineer and producer must remove the technology from the performance. The minute the artist is waiting for the engineer to catch up the moment is lost. Tape isnt conducive to this, IME, expecially because you are stuck with tricky drop ins rather than just banging out another take. However the beauty of a single take is the freedom of expression the artist has and the sense of performing the whole piece. Personally I like to get a couple of takes of a song down, then listen back very critically for any parts that are too far out to live with and rerecord those sections and mix them together later. If I lived in a perfect world that would never be necessary, but I would rather do that than force the singer to do fifty takes until I got the right one (which was probably take 3 anyway - most singers tire after 3 takes).

Well that means Drastic Measures by Michael Manring must sound sterile then because it clearly cant have been played by a human being Oh no, hold on. it was though, and some of it was first take

[quote name='joeystrange' timestamp='1349861310' post='1831329'] I know that but it just seems to be the standard these days. Pretty much all 'big' bands do it now. At the end of the day it's each to his own. Some people love perfect, polished records and others love more raw, human-sounding records. [/quote] But gridiron editting isnt perfect, far from it, because it doesnt sound real. By the same notion there is nothing to stop a human performance being captured absolutely beautifully and rendered to a gorgeous and very polished sounding final mix/master. It is down to the wil lof the artist, and the vision of the producer in these caases. Nothing else.

There is no direct correlation between using a digital system to record and sounding sterile. Thats just nonsense. However grid-iron production techniques (everything being laid on the grid exactly in time) does sound terrible. That isnt the fault of the fact things were recorded to a digital medium, thats a stylistic choice of the producer. I only ever track to digital, I never rely on a gridiron beat matching, preferring the sound of musicians squeezing time about to make something organic and full of life. Doesnt mean I wont edit the occasional timing error, or even tweak the tuning on a single note in an otherwise wonderful emotive take. Tape, 2" or otherwise, doesnt mean you have to get a take in one go either, I was dropping people in on the fly to fix a couple of notes in a track before anyone thought of digital recording on computers....

Autotune like everything else can be used properly, or misused for effect. I absolutely guarantee to everyone here that used properly (ie to tidy up subtle issues with a singer who is a bit pitchy) and used on the notes that are sung not the intakes of breath, you cant hear it. Not a chance. The algorythms are really clever, just the built in ones in Reaper are incredible, [b][i]if you use them well[/i][/b]. Of course doing things 'properly' with autotune involves time, and effort editing the tracks, which takes me back to where I said if you want a great sound and you can lay it down for real you are quids in every which way. The problem is that when there isnt the time and money and talent then autotune is just slapped on the whole track the artifacts are very obvious and horrible, and they are highly distracting, yet at the same time in certain genres this is a production element now, that is it is expected (thank you Cher and even more so TPain).

Great post Bilbo...

Booyah get in there - etc etc

Blog updated with new, clearer and better (I hope) diagrams describing the effects of different attack times. Hope this helps BBN!

They have a louder harmoinc series, so there is more energy above the 2nd or 3rd harmonic for the eq to boost or cut. So yes, they do.

Any thing that approaches the w*nkfest of hair metal guitaristas a la Yngwie on any instrument, using any style is an embarrising pile of horse sh17. Wooten was always at his best for me as a Flecktone, because I think Bela is a great composer, I think in general WOoten isnt half the composer Bela is, and on top of that he is forced to keep recycling his most impressive trick constantly rather than concentrating onm being a musician in a more general sense, which is a shame.

"Its [i][b]all[/b][/i] a lie" It has been since before the days of multitracking even. Seriously, reverb chambers, slap back delay, pushing tape hard, moving chaps around in the room to get the right balance - all to make it sound 'just so'. All done before multitracking. Splicing tape, comping parts, all done since multitracking. It doesnt matter either. For one thing I dont care who is telling you otherwise 'fixing it' takes far longer than getting someone proficient to play/sing it right in the first place. Anyone wishing to put that to the test doesnt know what they are talking about. So if you can do it for real, woot! You saved yourselves a bunch of time as a band which is far better spent getting [i]great [/i]BV's sorted (the icing on any track is great BV's). ANy one getting something totally faked up to fix a bunch of stuff will end up with a nice homogenised track that they cant say is all their own work, and if they do they will bee found out when they play live. Back in the day how many bands had overdubs done by session players to fix things? That wasn't alright either, but it just goes to show how this kind of thing in one form or another has gone on forever....

Is your drummer Alice Cooper without the warpaint by any chance? love the track dude, I'm sure you dont need [i]all[/i] those pedals though, I'll take those silly old fashioned wooden ones off your hands if you like

Bergantino.....