Bilbo

Have I been sacked without my knowing?

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1432596821' post='2783189'] Unless they both want to be drummers [/quote] Adam and The Ants! The GLitter Band!! Some of Coltrane's later bands!! Two drummers has a proud if noisy tradition, Paul!! Start 'em early!!

There is another issue at stake here, something that is hard to talk about without offending people; I am talking about respect for the music. Now I understand that I am on seriously dodgy ground here but, some years ago, a drummer friend and I decided we needed to start a Jazz venture locally so we could bring some decent quality Jazz to the area. We found a sympathetic landlord etc and set up our little thing here www.jazzeast.vpweb.co.uk The reason I am posting this in this thread was to explain [i]why[/i] we did it. There were/are a massive number of acts/bands/artists in our area who were listed as or presenting themselves as 'Jazz' at a time when 'Jazz' has little or no media presence. We were aware that. locally, there were a growing number of these 'Jazz' acts/bands/artists and venues putting on 'Jazz' acts/bands/artists that had no idea what 'Jazz' was and was not and certainly struggled to actually [i]play[/i] it. I am not splitting hairs over semantics here; the stuff that was being presented was both poorly produced, poorly presented and VERY poorly played (try a Jazz sextet that used a drum machine that just went tsss, ut tu tssssss, ut tu tsssssss, ut tu tssssssss all night? Duos that comprise a singer and guitarist wearing a suit and using a 'Jazz' guitar whilst playing pop songs - it was even bad pop, never mind bad 'Jazz' - all first position chords, no concept of solo 'Jazz' guitar playing - just painful to watch). Now, we could have lived with that as there are always s*** bands etc but the problem was that these s*** so called 'Jazz' bands were the ONLY 'Jazz' bands available for audiences to hear and the absence of any credible alternatives meant that anyone who wanted to see/hear 'Jazz' for the first time was being presented with some pretty grim stuff and would have most likley been put off it for life (one musician friend reported saw audience members actually [i]laughing[/i] at the material being presented). One of my biggest gripes is people who sing songs from the Great American Songbook and call it 'Jazz'. They may be great songs that might even be sung quite well but that doesn't make them Jazz, just songs that are/may be associated with 'Jazz' artists like Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald etc. Some even use backing tapes, FFS. How can it be 'Jazz' with backing tapes and machines? I am not just being precious about my favourite genre and being all pretentious; the stuff I am discussing is just not 'Jazz' in any way shape or form. I guess what I am saying is that, if anyone is going to put live music on, as a performer or as a venue, they should have sufficient respect for the music [i]and for the audience[/i] to ensure that what is presented has some degree of merit. Our view was that poorly presented 'Jazz', and this stuff was [i]poor[/i], was actually doling more [i]harm[/i] to the music than not having it available at all. We did something about it and are having some success but it's hard work fighting these bizarre Frankenjazzers!! I know I am coming over as a Jazz nazi/snob but this stuff was grim, really grim (and they are still out there, s***ing on the music).

Can't post links from here but here goes..... ELO – Concerto For A Rainy Day - Out Of The Blue was my first grown up LP that I bought when it came out. I had heard A New World Record at a friends house and eventually bought for myself but OOTB was the oen I waited for and bought hot off the press. . Phantom Of The Opera – Iron Maiden. Not sure how I came to this but the whole thing was a really fresh sound to my ears. Got me into metal in a big way and my first gigs. I was a NWOBHM geek. Firth of Fifth – Genesis – heard at a friends house being played by his older brother (who later committed suicide, tragically). I registered the line ‘Like a cancer growth, is removed by skill’ and went looking for it Close To The Edge – Yes – a friend bought the LP and I borrowed it soon after and really got into it. It was one of those LPs that, as a teenager, I played again and again and again and again..... It had everything; harmony, counterpoint, strong rhythmic identity. Still a marvellous piece of music. Bastille Day – Rush – I bought the ‘Caress of Steel‘ LP on the basis of their reputation and this was the opening track; a ‘wow’ moment for a young rocker Evidence Of Autumn – Genesis – just intelligent writing. I still love the song today Either End of August – Bruford. I got hold of all of the Yes solo lps and Bruford’s ‘Feels Good To Me’ was the last one I got. My introduction to fusion. The tune is a ballad in 5:4 Milestones – Miles Davis – the first full on Jazz tune I ‘got’. That Cannonball Adderley solo...... Song For Strayhorn – Gerry Mulligan. The first solo I transcribed properly, note-for-note. I can still sing it today. The Rite Of Spring – Stravinsky. I keep listening to it but still have no idea where it all came from!! The one piece I would consider to be the most important to me would be the Stravinsky simply because I would still be finding something fresh in there every time I heard it. Book? I, too, would take Lord Of The Rings, It has been a favourite since I first read it 35 years ago. It is the only book I have read more than twice (six times, I think) Luxury item. My Gibson ES175. A double bass would be great but I think I would miss the harmony.

As I have only really played one electric bass since 1986, it's a no brainer. My Wal Custom Fretless.

I have previously transcribed solos by Gerry Mulligan (baritone sax) and Bob Brookmeyer (valve trombone). These instruments tend to sit well on the bass but it is worth working with material from all instrumentalists because they all tend to think differently and force you out off a bess-centric perspective.

Ten entries!! Solid.

Hellborg is an interesting player. He is no jazzer in any real sense and always said that he considered Mahavishnu to be Prog Rock band rather than Fusion. I know what he means. I have a download of his where he is in trio with Buckethead on acoustic guitar. it is all good stuff but, for me, his lack of polish is part of his charm. When I hear guys like Gary Willis who are to all intents and purposes, 'perfect', I lose interest. It always works better for me whn I hear the tension in players 'straining' to get something to happen.

Well, we once shared a cab but I haven't got it's phone number.....

I use it occasionally just as a reference but I have the same problem. My intonation is shaky to say the least.

I think there is a lot of truth in that, pete. Geography is undouibtedly an issue. If you think about it, the number of gigs available is going to change depending on where you are but also on what the density of musicians in an area is i.e. lots of available gigs is great but if there are even more musicains, you end up playing less. I know that in the US university towns like Boston, music students get gigs because they pull gangs of other music students in wiht them whilst established musicians cannot compete even though they are better players. Simple economics. The flipside of this is that the NY or LA scenes have the potential to create bloated perversions like the bloke in 'The League of Extraordinary Gentleman' who drinks too much of Dr. Jekyll's formula. I was listening to a track off that Anthony Jackson 'Interspirit' recording today (ipod on shuffle). It was monsterously technical and an astonishing achievement in terms of arranging and exectuging the parts but, ultimately, the music was fugly and amounted to nothing more than a clever juggling act. When Art becomes competition (not even commerce) it is lost. Astonishing facility used to 'impress' rather than move.

Reggae is easy; play less and never go above the fourth fret. What is interesting is that almost all of the above posts reference difficulties with techniques that are practically useless Fopr instance, I don't slap particularly well and double thumbing is weak. The reason for this is primarily that, whilst the techniques in question undoubtedly turn heads, I DON'T LIKE THE MUSIC THAT IS PLAYED USING THEM AND NEVER PLAY THE MUSIC THAT IS PLAYED USING THEM. So, in short, the techniques are of no real use to me. Hence, I do not practice them, hence, I am not very good at them. When I was a fledgling bass player, I learned lots of the required party pieces that use odd techniques (5G by Jeff Berlin, Schooldays by Stanley Clarke, Motherlode by Berlin, Country Music by Stu Hamm etc). I also learned to play Pat Metheny's 'Are You Going With Me' as a two-handed extravaganza. As I moved on, however, I realised that these techniques are pretty much peripheral to the world of music making. I suspect the above list of 'difficulties' reflects that fact that most of the things we have 'difficulties' with are not bass playing but party tricks.

Putter Smith

http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=t0Wf2SP0rJ4

Jeff Berlin depped last time. I wonder if he will get the gig again? I am free, otherwise.

I know Jazz musicians who know 1,000 standards and can play them in any key (I am not one of them). I think this may be about the kinds of dep gigs you have. I do quite a lot of deps and never learn anything because I ask for charts (usually chords only) that are sufficient for me to 'fake' it. To put this in context, I play in two different bands who will regularly put new tunes in the set ON A GIG without asking me if I know them (and I invariably don't). So the first time I play the tune is when the audience hears it. It rarely crashes because most tunes are fairly predictable and a lot of the links can be managed with eye contact, established cues and a tame drummer. I saw a thread on-line the other day where guitarist Nigel Price (a monster player who knows EVERYTHING insude out) was detailing how he had to resort to the 'real book of shame' to play a Jazz standard he had forgotten in an odd key. He related a great story where he was on a gig and didn't know the changes to a tune. After floundering about a bit, he turned to the band with a 'OMG, help me out' look on his face, only to have the DRUMMER, wearing a bag ass grin on his face, call out the chords to him. I did a gig with Gilad Atzmon where I needed a real book and he poured (good natured) scorn on me for not knowing the tunes. Truth is, I don't even know the ones I wrote.

I always try to alert developing bass players (and other young musicians I come in contact with) to the fact that being able to play complex pieces made famous by other hot-shot bassists (or other instrumentalists) does not put you anywhere near being in their league. In my day it was Teen Town, Donna Lee, Portrait of Tracy, Jeff Berlin's 'Bach' or 'Dixie', Stanley Clarke's 'SIlly Putty' etc. Nowadays it's Victor Wooten's 'Amazing Grace' or Marcus Miller's slapped version of Teen Town or a two-handed tapping version of the Super Mario Brothers theme etc. The simple act of learing someone else's party pieces is far removed from functioning at the level required to contribute to the art form in a meaningful way. Understanding the music requires considerably more insight than that gained from 'knowing where to put your fingers'.

Massively good post, SS.

Your point is valid, though. In the 80s and 90s, after studying for years and successfully learning things like Jeff Berlin's stuff on Joe Frazier, his intro to Bruford's Five G, Donna Lee, Portrait of Tracy, Teen Town, Achool Days, Stu Hamm's Country etc, I always operated on the belief that everything was learnable given enough time and attention. I still believe that is the case broadly speaking but, over the years, I have met and played (one gig mostly) with some astonishing musicians and I really got a sense that there is a whoie 'nother level that cannot be reached by rote learning but which requires 'insight' as well as 'knowledge' and 'motor skills'. The problem, as I see it, is that, in order to develop this additional insight and to move up to that level, you need total immersion in the genres in question; Jazz in my case but I have no doubt that the same applies to other genres like classical etc. My three hours playing a week isn't going to get me there,

I wouldn't say most music, just most popular music!!

[quote name='visog' timestamp='1431606469' post='2773087'] I love your examples of 'Pop' (a term not used by anyone under 20 since 1983) are both from the '60s. Late '60s mind so you're not too out of date. [/quote] Gigs I do also include Good Times, Valerie, Mercy, a couple of Jesse J tunes, Maroon 5, Happy - it's all in there. My point was that most of it was playable by me when I was two or three years in .

Hate Canteloupe Island and Watermelon Man. Always pulled out by Jazz bands that want to pander to a crowd by playing something 'funky' but they invariably aren't.

Here we go..... https://soundcloud.com/robert-palmer-1/wrong-key-serenade

Ref: Dad's Four track. I have to agree. There are times when old fashioned hardwear is so much easier to use. I have some old cassettes of things I did on one and they sound great. I am not altogether covinced that progress is anything more than going round in circles faster. It's all good.

Biggest audeince ever - 4,000 at a Jazz gig. Smallest - nil (bar staff excluded) at a Rock gig. Same band also drove from Wales to London to play for 3 people. We did have an audience at some gigs though, honest. I don't do nerves. I am a bass player. No-one knows what I am doing so they don't know if I have done it wrong.