Bilbo

Not heard that term before but I guess it kind of says it all

Swing but not Jazz Glenn Miller's was more of a dance band. It was jazz orientated but most jazz folk consider it lightweight. Like Quo for Hard Rock fans or The Boomtown Rats for Punk.

No problem with that. Its not mine

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1331655016' post='1576663'] I thought jazz was about open minds, experimentation and expanding new horizons. Seems like it's in the same "traditional" rut as all other forms of music. [/quote] You'd like that, wouldn't you? The discussion is about 'swing' in the context of jazz standards. Swing is what it is. Jazz is a much bigger genre than just standards and walking bass lines, although 'swing' plays a massive part is all of it. The concept of 'swing' is a lot more sophistiacetd now and means a lot more than straight walking quarter note bass lines. Jazz is so not in a rut at the moment. Its flourishing massively.

Done

The sound of the left hand on an organ or of Steve Swallow's picked bass are more closely linked to that of the double bass timbre we are discussing, as is the lower end of an ERB which is why they work. A lot of electric players use a sound that is not suitable for swing; Jeff Berlin is most certainly one of them. For the record, there are also plenty of recordings of double bass players that fail to swing because their sound is not in the right sonic space (this was a major problem in the 70s whern an lot of DB players were using pick-ups for the first time and engineers were 'DI-ing' basses without really knowing what to do with the results! The recorded sound using these methods, whilst possibly ok for fusion, was not 'de rigueur' for jazz and led to the Marsalis 'dreaded bass-direct' prejudice).

Sure.... that'll get the fire started...

I know what you mean but I suspect that, if a guitar player or piano player is looking for a jazz aesthetic and, for reasons of technology, has to use a less suitable instrument like a Nord, s/he is even MORE likely to want a DB to kind of 'cover up' for the fact that their guitar/piano sound is less than ideal for the idiom. Re: the threat of doubling and its impact on your progress on your main instrument. I had a similar perspective on my guitar playing and gave it up to 'concentrate' on electric bass but, as time passed, I realised that I already had more technique than I could use musically and that the techniques required to play the instruments competently were not that hard to acquire. What mattered was the music itself and learning about harmony, orchestration, composition etc became more important to me than two handed tapping or chordal bass features. Its probably heresy to say this here but the bass is less important to me than the music. I watch these monster players and there is always a kid in me that goes 'Wow! I wish I coudl do that' but my rational side quickly realigns my thinking and directs me towards composing etc. I saw a video yesterday of the younger Stinnet playing Chick Corea's solo off 'Got A Match'. Not Patitucci's lines but Corea's solo. It was an amazing achievement but utterly futile. That much technique has, for me, become a circus act and a parody of itself. SO I no longer strive for that but for writing the greatest music I possibly can. My technique has suffered and I have less now than I have had in the past but, so far, that hasn't manifested itself on a gig.

We can only control what we can control. We compromise on a massive amount of what we do: how many of us have all of the players we would like, a great sounding room, an attentive audience etc. But there are some pretty basic 'can do's'. A tenor saxophone instead of an alto, a flute on this tune, a flugelhorn on that one. If you want a hollow-body guitar and there is a legitimate musical reason for it, then that's what you should have. An alto flute instead of a concert one. An electric guitar with single coil pick ups not humbuckers? Its all legitimate. Pat Metheny insists his drummers use Zildjan cymbals. Its his call. And, if I want to swing, a double bass..... I can do it on electric (just as a head for flute would probably be OK on sax, or a trumpet part on flugelhorn) but, like everything else, why would I do that if I can do it better on the double bass? And why book an electric if you want a double bass, anymore than you would book a trumpeter instead of a sax player? Compromise is inevitable but why would you if you didn't have to? The 'swing' achieved on electric is ok, its 'good enough' for most things and for certain audiences but, for me, that's all it is; ok, good enough, adequate. It's rarely perfect. Bit of a shallow victory, isn't it? I think there is a tendency amoung electric players who don't play double bass to think that the instruments are all but interchangeable simply because they want them to be. I know because that was my justification for two decades. But the two instruments are different. Electric is better for some genres and DB for others. If you want arco bass, you don't book an electric. If you want slap bass, you don't book a double bass. When you want swing, take my advice, book a double bass and save yourself a lot of the time and frustration I experienced in the past.

I love this instrument. I was jsut reading about Dave Liebman and thought I would love to have a go at playing one. I also like the idea that I could leave it lying around and pick it up for five minutes whenever I was idle, unlike a bass which is less portable and 'available'(DB) or needs 'lectric and amps and stuff (EB). I see them starting at less than £200 on the 'net. Obviously, these are cheap starter instruments not gold plated Yanigasawas (is that how you spell it?) but its not that much money for a punt. Anyone play one?

Timbre.... yes, that's it.

My 26 year old Wal (its his birthday on 25/3) has had its issues (once or twice) but, apart from the odd scratch and nick, is pretty much faultless in terms of its ability to deliver. Most issues have been about dirt getting in to pots/jack inputs rather than breakdowns per se I would go for what you want, new or old. Despite the rhetoric, these electrical basses aren't complex machines and there isn't much that can go wrong that can't be fixed fairly cheaply. UNlike a double bass where an out of tune string cost £3K to fix

Can you post a pdf? I tried reading it from here but these glasses.......

You are probably right.

One of those electrical ones.... I'm not really of the view that you can't swing on eb, just that you can swing a lot [i]more[/i] on db. Playing fast tunes, like 'Match', it is easier to pull it off but, playing a slow blues or a ballad is massively more convincing on db. Its not tha you can't do it on eb, just that its a lot less satisfying to listen to and play over. I used to think that jazz musicians preference for db was prejudice and tradition but, as I have got older, I have realised it is about the music and, for a lot of jazz, eb will always compromise the intentions of the composer or MD. You can play a form os swing on eb but, it you want the real deal, its db all they way. I think there is a similar argument with pianists. They all have an electric pianno for gigs but every one of them would drop it for a real piano every time because it is better suited to the genre.

Very quick, very clever but does it swing?

I do like a dare!!! We will all have to make sure that our backing tracks are the same for each take otherwise the swing will be different because of the drums as much as because of the electric/double bass comparison. I have a week from hell but will get to it as soon as I can. In the meantime...... [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zj8Hb2pTqo&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zj8Hb2pTqo&feature=related[/url]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1331570825' post='1575041'] I've got to disagree about Berlin...the guy swings like crazy. There are plenty of guys who swing hard on the electric bass,but I think the reason that people like Upright for jazz is nit because it swings harder,but because of the envelope of the note. Because of the difference in scale and the fact that a Double Bass has a massive body to vibrate,the whole attack and decay of the note seems to sit really well when playing walking. The electric bass has more of an instant attack which some people don't like within a jazz context and often mistake for (lack of)'swing'. [/quote] My original point was that definitions of swing are important here because, by mine, JB doesn't swing at all; not even close. All the others listed are the same. Nice players; great shuffles, great grooves, great solos etc but, when it comes down to it, they are thin and unsatisfying compared to a DB.

Can Berlin out-play us all? I guess if you measure playing in a notes per second, how hard is it to play kind of way but swing? What is interesting to note about JB is his almost complete absence from the broad 'Jazz' genre (as opposed to 'fusion'). Nobody books him to play/record because he is not actually very musical. Clever, cerebral yes. But not musical. His playing lacks emotional content and his sound is nasty. I want to like his stuff but it doesn't sound very nice. His cds are all very cleverly executed but emotionally flat as f***. He keeps trying to get famous singers to use him as a bass vocal feature but they don't because, ultimately, they all know it won't work. Not because they lack courage (as he would probably say) or because their producers think it is not commercial enough but because it won't work. His chordal playing on bass is clever but the sound is not engaging. And he doesn't swing.

No its not silly at all. The discussion is about the process not about the truth. In truth, not one of the 10,000+ basschatters out there gives a rat's arse what anyone else thinks about their favourite players but there is fun in the discussion and banter. We all get angry and hot under the collar about everyone else's preferences and criticisms but, at the end of the day, none of it matters. It's like a jigsaw puzzle, really; entertaining but, ultimately, completely pointless.

There is an argument that no electric bass players can swing..... That statement is by no means an absolute (an is probably nonsense) but there is a real issue in determining what the OP means by 'swing', what the industry/market means by 'swing and what the concensus definition of 'swing' is amongst musicians. I would respectfully suggest that Laurence Cottle and Jeff Berlin don't swing at all. The only electric players I can think of who I would agree wholeheartedly can swing would be Swallow and Anthony Jackson and I am not sure about AJ!! There is a Brian Melvin/Jaco cd called Standards Zone where JP plays standards (Days of Wine and Roses is one I recall) and they are horrible. Jaco could swing at times, unquestionably (see Word of Mouth), but, at other times, it could be horrible. But Jeff Berlin is the most non-swingingest bass player I have ever heard ! The other guys listed by Jake are all credible in terms of the logic of their walking bass lines etc but, when you listen to jazz all of the time, the electric players trying to play 'swing' stick out like a sore thumb and rarely have the depth of a double bass (not sonic depth but the layers of overtones and the attack etc). A good six string player can get into that zone occasionally but they invariably give in to temptation and go up the neck and that is when the swing ebbs away. For the record, I have been considering this question as a aesthetic priority for over 25 years and have momentarily come close in my own playing, when the stars were aligned, but, since I got the double bass, it was quickly apparent that I can't swing on electric OR double bass

All electric bass players......

I recently did something that I did last year as a way of opening some new doors for me listening. I buy Jazz TImes, the US jazz magazine, and every year they have a critics top 50 albums of the year article. Last year, I used it to link into the SF Jazz Collective, Christian SCott, Miguel Zenon, Avishai Cohen (trumpet) and some other stuff. This year, I got some stuff by pianist Armen Donelian, a Lee Konitz live album with Brad Mehldau, Charlie Haden and Paul Motian, a couple of Marcus Strickland recordings, a Ben Allison (bass led) thing, a Jerry Gonzalez cuban thing. I sample them via Spotify first but I find that its a great way of breaking out of your confort zone

Bass sizes are not that 'defined'. A 3/4 can be between x and y in length and can cross into other sizes (you will see adds for a 'small 3/4 size' or a 'large 3/4 size'. Stay away from a half size bass; they tend to be for young students only and will not be credible in a professional setting etc. But 3/4 is the default size for most jazzers and other secular musics. Larger basses tend to be used to be used for orchestral work but nothing is set in stone as some jazzers play 7/8 basses. But, the straight answer to your question is; try 3/4 size.

I gigged with a broken foot in plaster in the late 90s (really). It was ok but my walking lines limped a little