Bilbo

I can't help but think that Wals with frets is wrong.

I did a dep gig in London a few years ago and it was a typical function band set. No rehearsals, just turn up. Fortunately for me, the piano player was a reader and I knew him well and he has prepared some pretty useful charts for me; keys, form, breaks, chords etc and most of the tunes were old familiars which most of us could do cold. I did the whole gig glued to the charts but had to modify my playing as I went along to account for changes and odd idiosyncracies from the rest on the (7 piece) band. What a lot of players not schooled in these disciplines don't realise is that, often, a good listening player can stop on a dime not because he knows when to but because he hears that everyone else has doen so before he hits another note. He can also get lost and find his place without anyone knowing he has done so because he remains in the right key and plays confidently etc. Anyway, by the end of the gig, these kids thought I was 'Ready' Freddie Washington and I quietly basked in the kudos I had won, to the obvious but collusive amusement of the (Royal College graduate) piano player. I love it when a plan come together!

One of the things that always troubles me about these threaads is the knowledge other people have of the differences in sound between a long list of specific makes: they are all mentioned above. Having played bass for three decades, I can honestly say, I have absolutely no idea what most of these basses 'sound' like. I have no idea what they difference between a Fender Precision and a Jazz, no idea what a Ken Smith sounds like or a Fodera or Kubicki or Overwater or an Alembic etc ....... becasue I have never even [b]seen[/b] one of them let alone played one. The only 'modern' bass I have played is a Roscoe (I was trying out an amp in a shop) which sounded remarkably like a bass. I know Jimmy Johnson plays and Alembic and sounds nothing like Stanley Clarke or Mark King or Phil Lesh etc who also play Alembics. So what does an Alembic sound like? WHere do you guys get the opportunity, never mind the time, to not only play this array of basses but to play them sufficiently long enough to be able to identify the specific idiosyncracies of the instrument makers definitive sound? At a guess, I think I have played 3 or 4 Wals, a Jazz (mid 80s), an Ibanez Musicman bass (mid 80s), a Yamaha 6 string (mid 80s), a Status Energy 5 and 6 string (mid 90s), a Jaydee (late 80s), a Washburn headless Status type copy (late 80s), an Aria SB700 (1980 - 82) and a Hondo II Precision copy (1980). There may have been a Stingray in there somewhere as well. I think that's it. Oh and a couple of Sei basses at The Gallery. None of them left any impression upon me at all except the Wals (played them in about 1985) which were consistent. Most of these basses I either owned, they belonged to students or I played because I was there and it seemed like a good idea at the time. But to have a definitive opinion on the sound of each? I must have cloth ears

We jazzers never rehearse and don't know hal the tunes we are going to play until the chart appears in front of us. As we all know how to make sense of charts, this is not a problem.

Your model is fine, silddx, but, if someone goes to BM for a lesson, I would think they would have a more conventional perspective?

Maybe the fact that music education in the US is 'bought' by people who grow up having things bought for them or who are used to buying their way out of everything. But you can't buy the benefits of years of musical practice. You just have to do it.

I find myself repeatedly drawn to freer forms of jazz but I almost always leave disappointed and confused. Must try harder

There is some truth in what you say, risingson, although I think the innovations that are happening now are less about individual players and more about form and structure and cross genre boudary breaking. I can't think of a 'young' player who I would say is breaking new ground to the extent that Coltrane et al did but the field is much wider now and the grapevine has all but withered so it is unlikley that we will see those kinds of all-encompassing innovations again.

I went to far this month . I downloaded some massive recordings by Anthony Braxton, Old and New Dreams and Keith Jarrett. The Braxton stuff is really tough going. It is very abstract and I listened to 90 minutes (half?) of it before I had to give it a rest. I then went onto a live cd by 'Old and New Dreams', an Ornette Coleman 'tribute' band featuring Charlie Haden, Don Cherry, Dewey Redman and Ed Blackwell, whcih was also pretty free although much more accessable. I am now listenting to Keith Jarrett's 'Sunbear Concerts', a 6 cd boxed set of live improvisations that is also pretty intense. I am 4 hours in and not even half way there yet. I think I need to go lie down in a dark room! I have a Coltrane cd to get to yet that will probably sound like Kenny G after this stuff

I am interested in some of the responses to this as I am alway interested to hear what people are actually playing and in what ways they seek to improve themselves as players. I have always found that there are a lot of players who fill themselves up with clever party tricks that others, players and non-players alike, heap praise upon them for. Like that phase in the 90s where everyone was into Flea and learned all the BSSM tunes in an effort to sound like him. The motivation for doing that was not primarily musical, it was social. 'I want the kudos that Flea has'. 'If I can play Flea parts and he is winnign all of the polls, I must be as good as him and am equally deserving of praise'. We all like a bit of affirmation, me more than most, but I think, for many, it can get in the way of the real learning. I think BM is basically saying, in a way that is completely at odds with his brother's pseudo-intellectual presentation, is that he finds a lot of kids more interested in seeing themselves as the next 'young lion' or prodigy than they are in being the best player that concerted study and hard graft can make them. At each stage in our learning, we are only able to see a portion of what we are and what we have the potential to become. If we are sufficiently deluded, we can easily fall into the trap of believing we are better than we think we are and it takes a teacher to break that delusion, carefully but firmly. BM was being interviewed not giving a lesson or masterclass. A bit of tough love, I accept, but I think he has a point.

Try the strap over the right shoulder. It will feel strange at first but the bass remains in a playable position and, depending on the music you are playing, it should be useable?

Bit too far for me

Just to illustrate the importance of this piece of work, here is an additional, non-comprehensive list of rhythm changes tunes (some with variations but you get the idea): Allen's Alley - Denzel Best Boppin' A Riff - Bud Powell (?) Calling Dr. Jazz - Fats Navarro Celerity - Charlie Parker Crazyology - Charlie Parker C.T.A. - Jimmy Heath Dexterity - Charlie Parker Dizzy Atmosphere - Dizzy Gillespie (I assume) Eternal Triangle - Sonny Stitt Everything's Cool - Fat Girl - Fats Navarro Fingers - Thad Jones Five Guys Names Moe Good Bait - Tadd Dameron Goin' To Minton's - Fats Navarro Hollerin' and Screamin' - Fats Navarro I'm An Errand Boy For Rhythm - Nat Cole Jumpin' At The Woodside - Count Basie Kim - Charlie Parker Lemon Drop - George Wallington Little Pixie II - Thad Jones Merry Go Round - Duke Ellington Moose The Mooche - Charlie Parker Move - Denzil Best No Moe - Sonny Rollins An Oscar For Treadwell - Charlie Parker Passport - Charlie Parker Professor Bop - Babs Gonsalez Red Cross - Charlie Parker Room 608 - Horace Silver Salt Peanuts - Dizzy Gillespie The Serpent - John Lewis Serpent's Tooth - Miles Davis Steeplechase - Charlie Parker The Theme - Miles Davis Tip TOe - Thad Jones Thriving From A Riff - Charlie Parker Turnpike - J.J. Johnson? Webb City - Bud Powell? Wee - Denzil Best The list goes on and on and on and includes me (I have tried writing several 'rhythm changes tunes, as will have almost every jazz composer in the world)

Had some charts I could use to cross refer, although the chords are actually quite simple. Surprisingly so, in fact.

Very useful link, lowdown. Thank you.

Middle C on bass clef is one ledger line above the stave. On treble clef, middle C is one ledger line below the stave. learned that about a year ago. (Remember - bass guitar/double bass is written one octave higher than it actually sounds)

I am tryinhg to learn to read piano music at the moment. As I don't play the piano, this is proving problematic. Baby steps, baby steps.......

Eggsactly. Wrong targets = wrong business practices. Targets should be the acquisition of the [i]skill[/i], not the qualification. Government departments want you to get qualifications so that they can stand at teh dispatch box and say you did. The fact that you are no better qualified or no nearer getting a job is academic. They paid for the training, now its your fault you haven't got a job, not theirs.

Teachers are buisnessmen and colleges are businesses. In my recent experience, tutors of all kinds in formal establishments are pretty much told not to fail anyone. Great for business, lousy for education and students. Education seems to be about fulfilling the fantasy not about improving the student's abilities. Branford Marsalis, great as he is, is perfectly aware of his shortcomings (has finished gigs by apologising to the audience for having a bad night and telling them to ask for their oney back) and is very openminded (has played with Sting, The Grateful Dead, Bruce Hornsby and a load of other rock and pop acts). I suspect he is seeing what I see whenever I have contact with music colleges; an education system that puts its business objectives first and its students learning and development needs last. I have seen 'music' students that can't actually play a note, can't sing in tune and have no idea. What they do have is the fees. Whats [i]that[/i] about if its not getting the whole thing wrong?

Yes, I can hear tghat now, Jake. Thanks, again, mate. 'Off to shed... Doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, doom....

Just a few thoughts from saxophonist Branford Marsalis on what he has learned from his students. Offers pause for thought, I think?

Good points, Jake. I have some of those OP albums, certainly some recordings with Ray B and Ed T. I will have a listen to them and compare with the new recordings I have of myself. I have a bit of time today to spend practising so will get to it straight away. Thanks for the pointers.

Got my bass back from the luthier as promised and, with the new bridge and soundpost, it sounds great. Can't wait to get playing this afternoon (wedding gig - sax, bass, piano trio - just as well there are no drums as this is the first real oouting since the breakdown four weeks ago. I am expecting stamina to be an issue although the action on the bass is so much more user friendly so that will help a lot). Still, the other guys are good musical players so I am in safe hands!!

[quote name='jakesbass' post='1230785' date='May 14 2011, 10:43 AM']we can all always improve.... will PM some thoughts if you think that would be useful.[/quote] Please do, Jake. And feel free to do so in public, if you think it would be useful. One of the reasons I keep posting developments in my 'No Pain, No Gain' thread is to allow people to see what goes on when you take up an instrument like this after years of playing double bass (like a blog but without the pressure!!). I can already hear some 'shortcomings' on the track and still feel that there is a lot to do in terms of mastering the instrument but, in terms of getting from not playing to being a gigging player, its a useful marker to how long it takes and what the learning points are. I am big enough to take crticism and feel that doing so in public to help others learn would be perfectly acceptable to me.

Thanks for that, Mike. I guess my goal is to play it well and not just to play it. Its been a long time coming.