Bilbo

[quote name='phil.i.stein' post='1205848' date='Apr 20 2011, 02:05 PM']purely out of interest, are you listening and interracting with what's going on around you, or just reading and repeating verbatim (e.g. like reading aloud from a book you've never read before) ? [/quote] You can't deliver a performance of written music without listening and interacting with what is going on around you. Which notes to play and when is only the starting point. You still need to lock in with the other instruments and vice versa. You still need to guage your dynamics to the ensemble (in this case , keys, gtr, bass, dr, t. sax, trombone, trumpet, alto sax, flute, violin (x2), cello all under an MD/conductor. Everything is determined by the same listening and interacting skills as they would in any other musical setting. You are listening for cues, rubato passages, directed stops, vamps that are open ended. Learning to read the dots is only a part of putting in a musical performance of a chart. When it happens well, its such a buzz. One of the tracks on that show was Queen's 'Don't Stop ME Now'. It still had to rock, it still had that great guitar solo - everything was 'as per the reocrd' but we did it after one rehearsal and tucked in between 31 other tunes.

Because you get to the good bits quicker. I have rehearsed 32 tunes in one evening using charts. If I had to 'learn' them by rote, I would have probably managed a maximum of 4 that I would probably forget by the time I did a gig.

In fact, I think there was an element of 'hey, you could enjoy it even more'.

Same, five. Friday night, two on Saturday and two on Sunday.

[quote name='Johnston' post='1205595' date='Apr 20 2011, 10:38 AM']Learning to do it just so you have access to music you have no interest in seems to be a bit of a dumb reason to learn.[/quote] 'Thunk' (Bilbo's head hitting the desk again)

Up yours, sunshine!

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1205586' date='Apr 20 2011, 10:24 AM'].. but my ears are always open to what I'm listening to, and I get new ideas from that. I'll remember it, and work it out from my head whenever I'm having a plunk.[/quote] That'll work too

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1205505' date='Apr 20 2011, 08:55 AM']...but you want to play that kind of stuff. Dare I say most people don't...?[/quote] The material I use is irrelevant to the argument. It is the potential to access sophisticated music immediately and to spend time playing that music instead of just knobbing about with scales and riffs and stuff. 'Standing In The Shadows of Motown' would be just as good, a book of trombone solos, any transcribed lines or any conventional method book. It all opens up. When I hear people pick up their saxophones, guitars and basses, in my experiences, they generally all play the same few licks they always play. Written material is often great for pushing you into new territory which is where the learning is.

Can I stress one partifcular point that I have made in other threads but not here. Reading, for me, is not about gigs. I do no more reading gigs that anyone else (6 last year out of 50 odd). For me it is about efficiency and spending less time going over and over the same old same old (ziggydolphinboys story is a familiar one) and about getting the most out of practice time. I keep getting accused of being an elitist but I keep saying to people 'its not so hard to do'. Spend half an hour a day on it and, before you know it, it starts to come together. Then everything starts to open up. Its not actually that much harder than tab and, in the long run, a lot more useful. And its fun to play stuff. When I got my double bass last year, I was playing Bach Cello Suites and Paul Chambers transcriptions immediately, very badly and no arco but the learning I got from that was so much greater than learning a few riffs off Blue Note cds or just running scales (not that that is not useful). I could access various method books, Simandl, Sevcik etc and use them immediately without having to figure them out note by note. Much better use of time and a lot of fun.

[quote name='RhysP' post='1205198' date='Apr 19 2011, 08:57 PM']This is certainly true for me - I can't read music & know hardly any theory & it's purely because I'm a lazy c***. Never made any excuses to the contrary - it's something I really wish I could do but I simply just cannot be arsed putting the work in. For the amount of time I've been playing (over 30 years) I'm a sh*t bassist & it's all down to extreme laziness. If somebody told me tomorrow that in order to keep playing I'd have to study theory & reading for an hour a day I'd just give up. I'd very probably be a sh*t role model too.[/quote] But the world can always use another honest man

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='1205195' date='Apr 19 2011, 08:54 PM']Like Pete, I'm late to our bi - monthly punch up on this topic. Are we at round 12 or 13 ? I can't remember [/quote] Do you mind? This is my second favourite argument The other one is why Jazz is better than everything else

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1205184' date='Apr 19 2011, 08:48 PM']I'm well late on this thread. I thought it was about guitarists. I don't read music, but sometimes wish I could. I honestly think being able to keep time and being able to groove is more important if you're a bass player.[/quote] Its certanly as important.

[quote name='leonshelley01' post='1204971' date='Apr 19 2011, 05:22 PM']I think we also have to take into account most people on the forum probably have a non-music day job, and use bass playing as a social and leisure activity that sometimes maybe raises a little cash for a gig. I know I am. I am not a professional musician, I am someone who takes pride in playing to the best of my ability in the situations I choose. I am not a session player[/quote] That sums me up, Leon. My advocacy is borne of passion and the positives I have experienced from a solid grounding in theory anhd associated reading skills (and, to an extent, the negatives I have experienced from working with bands made up of musicians who can't read/don't know what's happening). What works for other people, doesn't work for me. In truth, I don't give a rat's what approach other have to their playing. I just talk a lot

[quote name='Johnston' post='1204939' date='Apr 19 2011, 04:59 PM']Stereotype much there Bilbo. No offence but that makes you sound like a condescending twat [/quote] Moi? Its more a case of using extreme language for dramatic effect. I rarely do full-on reading gigs either (percentage wise) but I do think that my ability to read is the most universally thing I ever learned to do. I can (could?) play Teen Town and Donna Lee, Joe Frazier, Water On The Brain, Bach, Five G, Motherlode, my fair share of Mark King and Stanley Clarke etc - all the basscentric tricks from the late 1980s etc. I have never played them other than, as Doddy says, to 'impress'. Reading has got me gigs and got me paid and I find, pretty much, that the quality of the music at reading gigs is a couple of notches higher than at the 'feel' gigs.

[quote name='oldslapper' post='1204913' date='Apr 19 2011, 04:33 PM']I don't buy this notion that those who do not read or learn theory, or do not wish to, are lazy and bad role models..??[/quote] Nor do I, as an absolute, but I do believe that those who do read and learn theory have a stronger work ethic and are good role models. So I advocate accordingly. Workshop situations are not the same as proper concerted study and fulfil a completely different set of needs. Most prisoners in the system aren't in long enough to learn to read the dots (although I did know a monster flute player in Cardiff who learned on a 15 year stretch). This thread is about what effect musical ignorance has on people's functioning as players. I find in inhibits most and have done so for decades, If that is my belief, then I have a duty to say so.

I have no problem with people criticising stuff they think stinks, bassace. Its not all good. Some of it IS crap.

My personal value base on this is simple. I am perfectly well aware of the fact that there are many aspects of being a musician that are not necessarily 'essential' and that players can get away without dealing with. But I am also aware, from my work with offenders, that there is a general tendency amongst young people to try to justify their behaviour particularly when it comes to avoiding working hard at study. Telling a developing player that he doesn't [i]have[/i] to do something is, in most cases, as good as telling him/her to [i]not bother[/i]. The anecdotes about player who can read but can't do something else are missing the point. All players have to be rounded and to be competent in all areas, not just half of them. A great reader that plays out of tune is no more use than an illiterate percussionist to an orchestra. Its about advocating the full basket of comeptences needed to become the best player you can be. In my experience, reading contributes greatly to my ongoing development. I could never do it again and still get better but I have no doubt in my mind that it is more use to me than double thumbing or two handed tapping. That is why I advocate for it. If anyone out there is a 'hobbyist' and has a more casual approach to this, then good for them, but please don't tell people that it is an acceptable way of moving forward. If people get that message early on, they will be coming to me in 10 years time like the raft of other older players I meet saying 'I wish I had.....'

The guy from Imagination (Just An Illusion), Ashley Ingram, played one.

When I was 17, I registered with the PRS because I had some recordings played on the radio etc and had an EP and a track on a compilation by HM Records. That year, I got a royalty cheque meant for Robert 'Some Guys Have All The Luck' Palmer (for those of you who don't know, my full name is Robert Palmer). £8K. Like Data, I thought about for 0.37 seconds

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=130899"]Moondance analysis[/url] You could, of course, refuse and earn yourself a 'services to music' award?

I think a lot of the stuff about reading depends on repertoire. I can readily see hown many people would never really see the benefits of reading because they rarely stray out of their comfort zone of covers and popular tunes that everyone knows. If you gig a lot with many different bands, most of which don't play the more common material we all know, then the benfits of being able to read become more apparent. Over the next week or so, I have played five different set lists with three different drummers, three different sax players, two keyboard players, three singers, two guitar players and a percussionist. I could not remember that much material if I tried so I make my notes on the charts and nail the gig. Couldn't do it without the dots. even if its only the breaks etc.

I only know one drummer from the old school that could read and groove like a mofo right from the off. HIs name was Ian Thomas. Reading doesn't cure all ills. It jsut makes somethign a lot easier. I did Jesus Christ SUperstar just before Christmas and we had one rehearsal before the 3 performances so that is 4 run throughs in total. It was ok on the first night, pretty good on the second and we nailed it on the third. Without the reading skills we would have had no chance but the irony is that one of the bass players that toured the show with Lloyd Webber PM'd me here to tell me that they had two weeks of rehearsals before the tour. So, the reading thing is not a replacement for rehearsals, good ears or good feel etc. It is a means of communication that facilitates a more immediate focus on the important details that makes all the difference as opposed to learning the 'big picture' stuff. It means rehearsal/study time is more productive.

I had a pair and sold them on here. I found them not very impressive at any useful volume. I gigged in trio with piano and sax and it just didn't deliver any bottom end or real warmth, never mind competing with even a quiet drummer. I think a lot of people like the portability of these cabs but, to my ear, the actual sound of them never fails to disappoint and, consequently, they represent a compromise too far.

Not as such. As I said, the reason I had prepared the charts I had for the double bass was in order to pace the evening because I was anxious that, if we did too many 'heavy' tunes early on, I would have to put the double bass aside for the third or even the second set. The two sidemen I had are very strong players and a weak bass would undermine them. Last night, I could do anything anyone wanted to call because I was on home turf but, next time, after I get the double bass fixed, I will be able to increase the dynamic range and textural range. In our discussions, myself and the drummer (Russ Morgan who used to play around London with alto saxophonist Martin Speake, I found out yesterday) came to the conclusion that, as long as the energy levels are there, we can do almost anything (by 'energy', I most certainly do NOT mean 'volume'). My own compositions are mainly contrefacts, new melodies put to old chord sequences etc (I did one on Saturday that was based on the form of The Chicken; I called it 'Fowl Play' - it is, of course, in 7:4). Its a tried and tested method of jazz composition that, whilst I would agree is a shortcut or even a 'cheat', gets you looking at material in a different way. I did another a few weeks ago on based on the chords of 'Lullaby of Birdland' but in 5:4. Anyway, the charts are all about attempting to break up the material in interesting ways to reduce the boredom possible with only two monophonic instruments and drums. We agreed that last night could have been better, even though it went down well. For me, it is about trusting your instincts and going for something you believe in. Its nice to get positive feedback from it, in spite (or bercause?) of the absence of 'Fever'. 'Moondance' and 'The Girl From Ipanema'.

Re-posted from 'How was your gig last night' Thread I [i]knew[/i] it!! I did a trio gig last night at The Fox Inn in Bury St Edmunds. It was tenor sax, bass and drums. I have played this venue on an off for about three years with different bands and know the landlord and the bloke she uses to book the bands reasonably well. The bloke approached me about putting something together for last night and I asked him if I could do this trio thing as I had wanted to do it for years. He was a bit 'ooooh, Shelia (the landlord) won't like it' but he agreed to let us do it. Anyway, sorted the line up and set about getting some charts together based on the fact that I would be playing double bass and needed to pace things so I wasn't a spent force at the end of the first (of three) set. Charts done and sent to the sax player and drummer. All set to go when, on Friday at around midnight, I was unloading my double bass from the car and clipped the bridge on the side of the vehicle, causing it to explode into three pieces. So I had to do the gig on electric and most of the charts were inappropriate. I have to admit that I was feeling more than a little nwevous before we started, something that has not happened in decades. So, gieven the forced change of plan, we knocked up three sets of old faithfuls on the day. We were doing funk versions of standards, some hip hop derived stuff (with a hint of reggae), the odd shufffle, some fast 'sh*t off a stick' be-bop, some Latin tunes and a couple of ballads per set. Damned hard work for a trio and a lot of really focussed effort by all involved. More to the point, and herein lied the risk, it demanded something of the listener. The gig was not only a 'musical/artistic' success but the (hard to please) landlady loved it, the punters loved it and we got an immediate re: booking in June. The clincher though came to me third hand from guy who told me that another regular (who really knows his stuff) said it was 'exceptional' and 'by far the best thing [he] had ever seen there'. It had its flaws and I would do some things differently next time but, for a first gig. it felt like a real affirmation. I have always believed that the punters will respond to the energy and the quality of an intelligent performance and didn't need to be spoon-fed 'smooth jazz' or 'the Great American Songbook' to be engaged. What we did last night was 'commercial suicide' in conventional terms and many venues/bookers would balk at the idea of a 'harmony-less' trio but it nevertheless went down a storm. Left with a very big smile on my face.