Bilbo

The introduction to Mark Levine's The Jazz Theory Book says 'A great jazz solo consists of 1% magic and 99% of stuff that is Explainable, Analyzable, Categorizable and Doable. This book is mostly about the 99% stuff'. I would (and do) argue that this apllies to all music, not just jazz solos, and that floundering around in the dark is not the fastest way to get from here to where you want to be. Theory is like a map that will save you time. If you make the same journey every day, you won't need it. If you got to lots of different places all of the time, you could still do without it but you would waste a lot of time up blind alleys, on inscruitable one way systems and looking for a car park For those whose careers are a sequence of covers gigs playing 'those' tunes, then leave the theory alone by all means. But if you are a player who wants to have a long and creative career with all the tools available to you, take a look at the stuff and see where it takes you. And learn to read music

[quote name='Ancient Mariner' post='1148307' date='Mar 3 2011, 01:12 PM']In the next breath he explained that when he solo'd he'd deliberately forget the theory and just play what he felt like playing.[/quote] That's how it works. We 'theorites' (have I invented a new word?) don't sit there thinking 'ooh, great, I can wack in that flattened fifth substitution there followed by an altered dominant'. We use our ears the same as anyone else but our ears are better informed because we spend hours running scales and arpeggios and chord sequences and subtitutions. Occasionally, I will solve a problem by intellectualising it in real time and I am almost always disappointed by the obviousness of the solution but, in the main, its your ear that guides you not your head. But the important lesson is that your ear is educated and informed not just intuitive. [quote name='Ancient Mariner' post='1148307' date='Mar 3 2011, 01:12 PM']Having theory won't automatically make you capable of musical expression, although it can make you a very good form of biological playback device.[/quote] No but it will massively improve your chances. Massively. And not having theory won't automatically make you capable either. And why the 'biological playback device' comment? There is an implied assumption that 'theorites' play with their heads and 'luddites (see what I did there)' play with their hearts. In fact, theorites play with their hearts and minds whilst those without technical knowledge are only able to use their hearts and minds . The only difference is the amount of information available to the informed mind vs the uninformed. The availability of theory is no guarantee of anything but I woudl argue it improves your odds. I know which camp I would want to be in.

Do yourself and the world a favour and just don't play it.

I have no problem with people who don't know, just with players who celebrate the fact and use the ignorance of others to justify their own ('my favourite musician doesn't know any theory so I don't need to' kind of thing). Just a small point: I don't think it is reasonable to say that bebop was defined after lots of the music that exemplifies it was written/recorded. I think its developments were conscious and came from a position of earned knowledge built upon exisitng knowledge. Its developments were consciously intellectual.

[quote name='silddx' post='1147311' date='Mar 2 2011, 04:22 PM']Smile away my friend. [/quote] I am genuinely happy for you. I think that there is nothing nicer than playing an instrument that gives you that kind of return. I guess I am lucky in that I find that in my 'off the shelf' set up. I guess its like trying to find your glasses and then realising they were on your head all the time

Hondo II Precision copy. Black. Lived in a musical desert and had a piece of junk guitar but noone to show me how to play it. But I could hear the bass lines and played the basslines on the lower strings of this half-arsed guitar thing until I started work at 17. It was the day I started work that I ordered the Hondo bass and a Carlsboro Cobra bass combo from a catalogue of some kind, can't remember which. Then got an Aria SB700 and a Sound City amp when I first joined a band which I soon upgraded to a Frunt amp and a Wal (1986).

I do smile at these 'tone as a holy grail' stories. I have never worked on my tone with this level of obsessiveness and have had three people this week (a bass player, saxophonist and a recording engineer) independently tell me my sound was great. Stock Wal with 10 year old Rotosound Solo Bass strings on it through Eden Metro. Just play the damn thing

I'm nearly in Essex, but not. Wilkommen!

[quote name='stewartmusic' post='1146743' date='Mar 2 2011, 08:43 AM']But this is not always the case, if you mean doubling the celli as playing the same notes as them. Although [b]in some earlier music in baroque or classical times when the bass would play the continuo it would most certainly double the celli [/b]but for more modern composers such as Mahler and Stravinsky the double bass was most certainly playing its own part.[/quote] I know it is not the case in later music but early on, when it was christened the double bass, it did

Hakim was astonishing with Weather Report. Catch this duel with Joe Zawinul!!! [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLVG4Q8_Rqs"]Omar Hakim[/url]

Because it doubles the cellos in an orchestra an octave down.

Play against a metronome on 2 and 4 and get youself into 'the zone' listening to every minute string buzz, friction noise and little nicks and nocks that contribute to the formation of each note. You need to do this because, if you don't, it will come backa bnd bite you on the ar*e for the rest of your career. Endless repetition is the source of all advanced technique. Learn to love the simplicity of it.

Thsi was my first although this is NOT the transcription I did at the time but an up-to-date corrected version. I chose it because it was within the range of the bass and didnt' have anything too fast or difficult to execute on the bass. [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=48470&hl=song+for+strayhorn"]Song For Strayhorn[/url]

[quote name='lettsguitars' post='1143324' date='Feb 27 2011, 02:06 PM']i like the 3rd/6th progression if that's right. not sure what it's called like. but if you're in G, it would be G A# C# E G. i find it fits in at the end of a fill quite nicely. got that from the jaco lessons on youtube.[/quote] That's a diminished arpeggio (a series of minor thirds).

[quote name='jdstrings' post='1133006' date='Feb 19 2011, 01:55 AM']I hope all that is not too overwhelming and that some of it proves relevant to you![/quote] Really helpful, Jerome. I kinda knew that getting a set up would be helpful but I have been quoted anything up to £600 for all the different elements (inc strings, bridge etc) and just haven't got that kind of money available at the moment. I have a set of Evah Weich's on there so the strings are good quality. To be honest, the most positive part of your post was the 'After 14 months it's not entirely surprising that it can still be really hard work' bit! I have played both of Jake Newman's basses and found them like butter - much easier to play but they are worth between 3 and 6x what I paid for mine so I wasn't surprised I guess I just need to figure out how to get the bass looked at without having to sell a kidney.

I have worked with Simandl 1 as an electric and double bass player. Not altogether sure what you mean by random, Zach? The early pieces are all key centred and melodic.

[quote name='Count Bassy' post='1141086' date='Feb 25 2011, 12:29 PM'](you do know that don't you Bilbo?).[/quote] I did

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1140919' date='Feb 25 2011, 10:30 AM']I think there is [b]sometimes[/b] something of the anti-hero thing going on here. 'Everyone likes X so I won't' kind of thing. Happens with all the great technicians on every instrument.[/quote] The emphasis was conscious.

[quote name='Count Bassy' post='1141012' date='Feb 25 2011, 11:40 AM']Yes, and it happens to iconic songs as well, for example Mustang Sally, All Right Now, Sweet Home Alabahma, etc., but best not start on that old chestnut again. Ooops - I just did.[/quote] Murrrch Ftumch Gnerrrspyth!! (Bilbo biting his tongue)

I think the point was some people slag of his tone but shouldn't because it is iconic. I think there is sometimes something of the anti-hero thing going on here. 'Everyone likes X so I won't' kind of thing. Happens with all the great technicians on every instrument.

I ask the question also whether there is a genre difference here in terms of what works. I did a rehearsal recently with a 'proper' violinist and mentioned that I was looking for an arco teacher who didn't live 60 miles away and we got talking about left hand technique and he said mine was much better than most players he had worked with in orchestras. It amused me because, in my own mind, I'm all over the place trying to get to where the players I listen to can get to but, in a nutchell, he seemed to think that a lot of classical bass playing was more 'centred' than jazz with fewer made skips etc. Reading this thread, I wondered whether owen's point about everyone being happy is about most people being able to do what they want to do because most people aren't doing madly technical stuff. HEALTH WARNING!! I don't know what I am talking about

I went through an ardent Jaco phase, not in an imitative sense but in the sense that he was one of four bass players who made me aware of the potential of our instrument beyond the bounds of the Rock I was then listening to (the other 3 were Jeff Berlin, Percy Jones and Jimmy Johnson). For a while there, I ought almost everything Jaco had ever done and soon realised that he had his limts (lots of licks and [i]serious[/i] repetition) but I also realised that his 'tone' was not a single sound but a range of sounds. The one everyone thinks of is the 'A Remark You Made' 'mwah' sound that defined a generation of players but there was also the much tighter sounds he used for funk grooves, the harmonics thing, the distorted Hendrix 'Third Stone' thing, the wooly 'Chromatic Fantasy' sound etc etc. There was also his conscious changing of tone within a line (watch his right hand in videos of 'The Chicken'). He played on some of the greatest fusion albums ever and made his mark as a leader (his main three solo cds are top drawer not just because of the bass playing but because of the music) and as a sideman in all sorts of settings but, as he got ill, he got lazy, lost his 'muse' and just kept regurgitating his own stuff (he played for the applause and that was all he got). He was, at different points in his career, a great player, a great musican and a real icon for us as players. Like Hendrix, Coltrane, Coleman Hawkins, Lester Young, Miles, Jimmy Blanton and Scott LaFaro etc there was bass before Jaco and bass after. Its as simple as that. His isn't the only iconic bass sound but it is undoubtedly one of the most distinctive and influential. As for Stanley Clarke, his sound was the [i]absence[/i] of tone.

Mmmmm. Comedy jazz. My favourite The trouble with 'in-jokes' like this is they seldom travel well Now lets' hear some proper stuff. I know you can do it (that much is obvious). You both have credible technique, good sounds (if recorded a little 'dry') and some creative arranging ideas. Now stop polishing turds and get down to business

The simple fact is that it is not the covers or originals that defines the ability of a band to get the gig, it is the ability of the band to pull an audience. Covers bands and tribute bands use the reputations of their subjects to secure a pseudo-guarantee of an audience. If an originals band has a followng, it should be equally attractive to a venue. The question is, how can bands work on building a following if the gigs are all given over to covers bands and tribute acts. I guess this is where they have to work a lot harder using alternative methods like the internet etc.