Bilbo

[quote name='KevB' post='926394' date='Aug 16 2010, 01:08 PM']It's funny Bilbo but I was listening to Planet Rock the other day and they have a section in one programme where people request their favourite 'unplugged/less out and out heavy' tracks. One of those chosen on Friday was Moondance and the presenter spent ages after playing it extolling it's virtues, I immediately thought of you ranting at the radio of course [/quote] Planet Rock? So a profoundly academic ethnomusicological analysis of the merits of the piece based on sound empirical evidence, then As Shakespeare would have said: 'The dance of the moon doth suck'

One can only hope that the bad players never get heard because they wouldn't be allowed near a recording studio. Experience tells us otherwise but, for me, the only thing to watch for is guys who are taken out of their comfort zones by producers with ideas above their respective talents - like whoever told Van Morrison's bass player to do that to 'Moondance' or John Paul Jones doing reggae on House of the Holy . They are not 'bad' just poorly advised

Did a rehearsal yesterday for a show scheduled at the Theatre Roayl in Bury next month. Clarinet, Sax, Flute, 2x violin, cello, trumpet, piano, guitar, bass and drums. We collectively nailed some pretty sophisticated stuff - everything from Les Miserable to We Will Rock You and Wicked - can you imagine trying to make that happen with that line up WITHOUT dots? It would have been a car crash. Found myself struggling with the detail sometimes (sixteeths in E major ) but my ears got me there without my looking too mmuch like a git. Dots rool!

[quote name='lowdown' post='925839' date='Aug 15 2010, 08:57 PM']Love the remarks.. 1st Video[b]...".Nicely done, Sax player looks cool in the Panama, but the pianist appears to have a large insect on her head, I wonder if she knows..." [/b] 2nd Video[b]..."That rocks along nicely but the drummer and bassist are strangely absent."... [/b] Were you actually loading up your car in not so Proud mary? Garry[/quote] The first was at a function with a Hollywood theme and everyone had to dress like a film part so some bright spark thought we should dress with a Bond theme - we all had bow ties and the pianist had one of those nearly hats women wear to weddings. As for not being [i]in[/i] the video, just take that as evidence that there is a God and he has not abandoned me yet.....

I heard he needed surgery at that time and needed to lose the weight before it could proceed. That was the rumour, anyway.

[quote name='bubinga5' post='924144' date='Aug 13 2010, 05:05 PM']Bilbo (or anyone else) do you find its a skill you have to keep up all the time to keep sharp?[/quote] Very much so but not necessarily in a reading hundreds of charts all day every day kind of way. I find 15 minutes every day (ish) pouring over something lovely, like a Bach Cello Suite, is no hardship and easy enough to maintain. Also helps with the 'good intonation without looking' area of double ans fretless bass. I also have a 'reading rhythms' book on my desk at work that I can look at to tap out rhythms that will increase my ability to 'see' rhythms in the way Doddy describes (I don't count them or talk them, just see them in the same way you don't phonetically spell out written words but scan the whole. I find, for instance, that it helps to recognise that a half bar of sixteenths reads rhythmially the same as a full bar of eighths etc. My 'project' at the moment is trying to get to read the treble, tenor and alto clefs as well as I can the bass clef. Its hard

I recommend Rufus Reid's The Evolving Bassist as it starts you off reading open strings on minims and takes you from there The secret of learning to read is to learn where the notes are on the stave, learn to read rhythms and the JUST DO IT - again and again and again and again and again....... It is a skill you develop by endless repetition. There are loads of transcriptions on here (look under Theory and Technique) and on the net so no excuses. Start simple and build otherwise you will get frustrated (although frustration goes with the territory in this case)

This isn't a response to your band, Jake, but I have a bit of an issue with the word 'entertainment' because it is often used as a justification for 'lowest common denominator' in terms content. Many musicians make decisions based on their [i]perception[/i] of 'what the people want' and fill their sets with old faithfuls like Midnight Hour, Lady Marmalade, Son Of A Preacher Man and so on. Jazz bands are no different and they fill their sets with the tried and true; Autumn Leaves, Fly Me To the M n, Bye Bye Blackbird, Fever, Moondance etc. What happens, whether it is rock or jazz, is that something vital is made bland and predictable and many of the people who want to be entertained are put off. When I look out at weddings, I see dozens of people dancing and hundreds of people not (the quality of the band has no real bearing on this). I did a recent wedding where my little Brazillian project had a field of people buzzing whilst a major London 12 piece with horns, backing vox etc doing 'those' tunes failed to ignite them (people kept coming up to us and saying, 'we wish you were playing, you were much better'. So what, says you? Well, the Brazillian band's set consisted entirely of tunes they didn't know sung in Brazillian Portuguese. The band always goes down really well wherever we play. It just escalates if there are any Brazillians in the audience People want to be entertained not bored. Don't just give them what they want, give them something to get excited about, something they have not heard 1,000 times before (your Charleston gig would be a new experience to most people, Jake). A regular jazz gig I did for 5 years used to mostly act as background noise to an ambivalent audience (the drummer insisted on keeping the material 'familiar'; 'those' tunes again) but the audience (mostly 18-24) only ever sat up and listened when we took it out and did something a bit heavier: Coltrane, Monk, Ornette Coleman; something with some energy and vitality. I have no problem entertaining people and, like everyone else, I like to see people dance but it is a much better feeling when what you are doing is also a bit different, edgy, fresh and engaging. So many of us are no better than cheesy cabaret bands in wolf's clothing. Live music in the UK sometimes feels like Sky TV; every channel is pretty much the same as every other and, with 800+ options, you still can't find anything you actually want to watch. Jazz bands are just as guilty of this as function bands. Its sucking the life out of it. Entertainment is like politics. Everyone heads for the middle gorund to get the most attention and, as a result, nobody gets what they want!

A good point, Paul. I guess the problem is that, if the whole team has to adjust slightly to make it work, that's ok. If the whole team cannot adjust enough to make it work, the alternative is obvious. Sack the player or disband the team. The level you play at is going to have a lot of bearing on the level of inadequacies you will tolerate. If I sat in with Herbie Hancock, I suspect I would get one tune in before I would get glared off stage. But, in an ordinary jazz gig, in a provincial town, I feel it is still morally defensible to expect a certain level of proficiency in the team/band members. If its not there, I reserve the right to do the glaring

[quote name='oldslapper' post='922836' date='Aug 12 2010, 03:07 PM']At what point do you say I am ready I wonder? Who judges? Where's the yard stick?[/quote] That's my point. IMO, it has to rest with your fellow musicians. In the case of your jazz band, your friends are clearly happy enough to work with you: it may be you have good time and a good sound and they feel able to wait for the rest to come. If your time was all over the place, you would probably have known about it already. But you have to proceed with some caution because, sometimes, the 'old school' can be delusional and project all sorts of kudos on to your playing that isn't deserved. I used to play with an old guy a long time ago who thought I was the dogs danglies. Not because I was but because he [i]thought[/i] I was. He was a lovely guy and very enthusiastic (he apparently turned down a guitar gig with The Shadows before they became famous and has been kicking himself ever since) but his standards were very low. If you are surrounded by people like him, it can distort your own perspective on your playing (small town hero kind of thing). But, if they are credible players, they can take you forward absolutely. As for yardstick, in my case there was a bl**dy great elephant in the room. I didn't need a ruler .

[quote name='Doddy' post='922767' date='Aug 12 2010, 02:11 PM']Unfortunately, people like to have their ego's massaged and don't like to be told if there is a deficiency in their playing.[/quote] And there's the nub of it. Noone likes to be told they are not the genius they thought they were. I actually think that a lot of 'students' of the music need lessons in attitudinal change as much as they do in scales and chords. There's no 'i' in jazz (although there [i]are[/i] three in improvisation') But that's another thread

[quote name='chris_b' post='922695' date='Aug 12 2010, 01:25 PM']So we've all got to check with Bilbo to see if we're good enough to gig? Yeah right![/quote] Obviously not, but it may be an idea to check with someone whose opinion you respect (and who you know will be honest with you - so your Nan might not be the best person ). Or to develop a critical sense that allows you to hear the difference between not good enough and good enough. That's actually really hard when you are starting out. If four of you start out together by starting a band before you can play, it may be even harder (although not impossible, as history tells us). The tried and tested method Doddy discussed is nothing more than the natural quality control you get when you choose people for a football team, a sports event, a school play, a church choir, a pub quiz team etc. Main difference is a 24 piece choir can hide an iffy voice and football team can probably carry a dodgy player. Most bands have one of everything so a weak link tends to scream at you. When there are 2 or 3 weak links, forget it. The important think to note is the sense that would allow you to quality control yourself or your band is exactly the same sense that will allow you to develop as a player. If you are deluded into thinking you are better than you are, you will have no motivation to work on the aspects of your playing that let you/the band down. Be your band's own worst critic. One of the big problems for younger jazz musicians (under 60) is that, when many of the older guys started to play, the standard was very low and anyone with a heartbeat could get a gig (and they did). These guys are still out there; some of them are ok but some are excruciating. They still work, putting young people off jazz, left, right and centre Audiences are a LOT more discerning today than they were then and I sometimes wonder if this is why live music is becoming less popular. People want more from thei music than to watch fantasist 'having a go'. How popular am I becoming?

It so doesn't and everyone knows it....but, being 'English' we are too polite to say so. :snob: Its ultimately destructive to allow people to proceed without guidance. I think there is a compelling argument to say we should be supportive and encouraging without being collusive. There is a scene in Wynton Marsalis' book 'Sweet Swing Blues on the Road: A Year with Wynton Marsalis and His Septet' where they have to send a young Eric Reed back to the woodshed for not quite cutting it. It is a particularly moving part of the story and there is a photo of Marsalis hugging the pianist after giving him the news. Now Eric was a good player then and is a GREAT player now but Marsalis needed to make the music the best it could be and needed a better player. By doing it in a respectful way, Reed maintains his dignity, goes away and gets the skills he needs to make himself a better player and Marsalis addresses the weakness. In the UK, we just 'don't call him' and never say why or jsut tolerate it because the money's good. Its a bit gutless, isn't it?. Or we slag him off behind his back? That's two faced? So why is it a crime to say, quietly and away from the public's gaze, 'John. We love you but you're not cutting it, mate. Go see this teacher. Go improve your time. Go work on your chops. Come back when you are ready'. I should note that I can take it as well as give it out and on the occasions when beter players have told me to work on something, I have taken it on the chin and done so (Iain Ballamy told me to work on my reading, Paul Tungay (60s London session ace and Tom Jones lead trumpeter for years) told me where my phrasing was slipping (helped me nail it) and Lee Goodall (Cardiff based multi instrumentalist who played baritone with Van Morrison and other horns with John Taylor, Paula Gardiner, Dylan Fowler and a host of others) who helped me deal with the concept of playing ahead of or behind the beat. If anyone else has anything to say about my playing, I would rather hear it than not as I can't rely entirely on my own critical sense to see the shortcomings.

I can't play files in work so can't comment yet but am I eager to hear this?!!! (I also quite like what SoaD I have heard so that's a good start)

No expert but I can see that trying to use four fingers in half position would leave you vulnerable to intonation problems over an evening due to fatigue - as your hand tired, over the evening or through a particularly long or fast tune, you would inevitably find the additional stretch that little bit harder to maintain and the notes would consequently slip out of tune. I find the Simandl easier on the hands (maybe if I had started this when my hands were still growing, I may have stood a chance - as it is they are grateful for the more natural stretch of the three notes)

[quote name='fatback' post='921808' date='Aug 11 2010, 05:33 PM']I imagine this thread all by itself has cleared a fair bit of undergrowth. I sure won't be risking jazz any time soon [/quote] By all means play it, study it, learn some tunes, practice them, get some lessons and then, when you have got some of the basics under your fingers, find a jazz jam session and go and play one of those tunes you have worked on with some other people. Then go home and practice some more and, next time, play two. What I am saying is, don't expect to say 'I think I'll have a go at jazz' on Monday and to book a gig for your new jazz quartet on Friday. I'm going to get some t-shirts printed: Jazz: don't cr*p on the music...

Dropping the odd note, losing your place in So What, speeding up or slowing down - all grist to the mill. All of those, all night, is less indefensible.

[quote name='fatback' post='921640' date='Aug 11 2010, 02:25 PM']Are you sure your bandmates aren't messing up because the prospect of breaching their parole conditions and being sent back down makes them so nervous they can't play?[/quote] If that were possible, the prisons would be in even deeper trouble than they already are

[quote name='witterth' post='921565' date='Aug 11 2010, 01:20 PM']OOOh god, I've made you really cross haven't I? [size=1]sorry[/size] ([/quote] Don't give it a second thought, w !! I am a Probation Officer! If I haven't been called a W***er at least once a day, I probably haven't done my job properly !!

I also like that 'its not nice to be mean to people' thing.... Its also not nice to let your friends make fools of themselves in public oblivious to the fact that they are doing so. Would you let your closest friend go onto Britains Got Talent if you KNEW they were going to bomb? Some would. I wouldn't.

[quote name='witterth' post='921172' date='Aug 11 2010, 12:41 AM']You know, trawling through this makes me realise what a bunch of anally obsessed "self interested" bunch of door handlers we can be at times. so, somebody gets it wrong, a "bit", at times,isn't that good, or, any good at all,useless totally totally rubbish, well. good.....nobody DIED!! its music!! and if its not the best so what?? don't compare it to medicine/ surgery its not the same.....its not.....NEVER will be, if a doctor played a Bflat when it should have been a natural, who'd ever care? if he/she put the wrong tie in the wrong vien during surgery, it not just "oops" is it? again, Sssheeh I love this stuff, I suppose the fact I'm not that good makes me so defensive!! Ahh Well...Ha ha...[/quote] So caring about the quality of what we do is being anally obsessive. Not caring is amatuerish and potentailly destructive. Of course, you can care and still be crap but then, if you had any level of integrity, you woudl remain in the rehearsal room until you got better. But the lure of the bright lights and the reflected glory of being in a band is too much to manage for people. It would be interesting to see what would happen if the people who were laughing at the previously mentioned gig (a village hall in Suffolk) had be throwing things (Tonypandy Royal Naval Club). The public (and often the landlords/commitees/customers) are too polite to complain but they certainly don't come back. I am not talking about people getting it wrong a bit. I am talking about people getting it wrong a LOT. All night, from the first beat of the first bar till the last chord fades out. We need some quality control, people, or the whole thing dies. Nobody died? No, but some people were psychologically harmed in the making of those videos. My point is, how many times would you put up with poor workmanship in your colleagues (ina nay field) before you said 'no'. I have reached that point. Why should I respect them (as musicians) when they don't respect me or the music by learning to do it properly? I am talking core skills here, not virtuosity. Doddy paid his dues the way real musician do. His story is similar to mine and most musicians who are cutting it. Earn your wings before you fly in public. Amateurs belong in jam sessions and workshop bands not on proper gigs. If you are any good, the tutors spot you, word gets out and the phone starts to ring but you need to be ready to deliver at least at a competent level. Screwing up in public is not good for anyone, least of all those who are screwing up. YOU ARE BEING LAUGHED AT. The delusional think they are 'living the dream' whilst the people around them are thinking 'kn*b' . What is interesting here, sociologically and psychologically, is the number of people who have pm'd me to say they agree but won't say so in public because they don't want to look bad. I respect their privacy but its symptomatic of the issue. They watch, they listen, they wince, then smile and go home and the 'offenders' are allowed to reoffend repeatedly.

I do my return on-line now and its really easy. Your PAYE stuff is all on your P60 and another document relating to expenses paid (P16 or something like that) and your music income is 4 figures income, expenses capital expsnditure profit/loss. Takes no time at all if you have the figures to hand. I earned around £6k 3 years ago, £4K 2 years ago and £3.3K last year. It was just as easy each time. I work on 40p per miles for travel and the rest is just figures you have spent on gear/accessories.

No - the worst player is the bandleader. I play with great people all of the time and I have gigs that are pretty cool (not on video, alas) and a real buzz so I have chosen to focus my energies there and not on maintaining someone's delusion. I have a close drummer friend who recently depped for them (without me) and he has said he will never do it again. Its the psychology of bad gigs - I find them harmful if they come too often.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='920167' date='Aug 9 2010, 10:48 PM']I'm hinting towards what it is that drives you to satisfaction in music.[/quote] All I want is to see a job well done, Jake. We all have bad nights and learn to bounce back but when the musicians you are going to play with are so bad that the gig will inevitably be crap, it is a different matter. To be blunt, I even began to think that the gig was doing me harm: 'that's the bass player with that crap band' kind of thing. It was certainly undermining my self confidence - intellectually, I knew it wasn't my fault but, emotionally, over time, it eats away at your self esteem. I could play anything if it was decent. I could even play crap stuff for one or two gigs or a week long show, its when your diary is full of gigs that you KNOW are going to be crap, you've got to ask yourself is it worth it?

As I keep saying, this is not elitism. I will play with people who are developing but I think there should be a bottom line before which you shouldn't be allowed out. And some of these guys had not reached it. If you went into surgery and the Doc was sat there with a 'heart ops for beginners' manual, you'd run a mile. If your solicitor in Court told you he wasn't experienced and was just 'having a go', you'd freak. But, where music is concerned, people seem to think anyone should be able to have go. I have no problem with them trying it on, doing gigs at family parties or whatever but, for me, it reflects badly on the participants, however good they may be as individuals. I walked away because it was hurting my soul; making me sad. I am not arrogant enough to think I am the dogs b's, but I know I can do better and shouldn't collude with this charade. For the record, do you want to know who took the gig over after me? Mick Hutton.