Bilbo

In my global moderator role, I have just merged 5 seperate Jakesbass feedback threads so this is now 5 pages long. I just want to add something that I have not mentioned that needs to be said. Some of you may know that I had long had amental block where the double bass was concerned having had a previous run in with the instrument that resulted in a hanmd injury. Amongst other things, I got into a discussion with Jake about what some of the issues may have been and I decided I would consider having another go. I was contemplating how to get hold of an instrument with a budget of fourpence ha'pennny when, get this, in an unsolicited PM, Jake offered to lend me a £3,000 double bass for six months to see how I get on. I also had a lesson with him when I picked it up (see above) which allowed me to regain my momentumon the instrument without any damage to my hands/arms. Now, this act of generosity has set me up with a whole new passion in music and I am looking forward to learning more and taking my playing in a new direction. But what made me even more grateful for the loan was the fact that, when he made the offer of the loan, Jake didn't know me; we had never met, spoken, seen each other play or anything else. Our only connection was a couple of mutual acquaintances on the Cardiff jazz scene (we both spent time there but at different times in our playing careers). Other than that, our only contact was here on Basschat. So, once again, kudos to Jake for his natural teaching skills, generosity in both spirit and action and an unreserved recommendation to anyone who is looking to improve. I will forever be grateful to him. And, while I am at it, I also have to acknowledge the fact that he occasionally tempers my worst excesses in posts here with his reasonable and reasoned responses. I promise I will not hold that against him

Jake rocks. If you are close enough to Aldershot and want lessons, you would be lucky to find anyone better. After 28 years on electric, around 12 months ago, with some targetted intervention, he gave me the gift of a whole new instrument (the double bass) and I have been gigging on it since March 2010. Still learning to get the most out of the thing and learninig the ropes but I can confidently say I can play the thing now and it has opened up a world of new music for me that was previously unavailable. Now THAT was money well spent..

They are all as good as each other, zdb. The fact is that learning the dots is actually pretty easy (a few days work). The process of learning how to recognise them in real time and convert them into hand movements and music is what takes forever. And there is no easy way of doing it other than thousands of hours of tedious practice. Ususal books mentioned include Rufus Reid's The Evolving Bassist and Ray Brown's book but there are loads of 'how to read music' books out there and, with support, you can make sense of it easily enough. Where are you in Essex? I am in Felixstowe if you want some pointers (but only if you bring the Flamboyant 6 ).

These feature heavily in the early years of Latin Jazz. I know Paul Chambers was thinking of getting one a couple of weeks before he passed away.

Learn to read music...... Iain Ballamy 1999

If you work on the principle that there are 12 notes available and 7 in most scales, you have a better than 50/50 chance of hitting a 'right' note even by accident. Silddx's ear probably improves that to an 80% chance of not being technically 'wrong' but, I have to say, having been doing this for 30 years, it will eventually feel like a shallow victory. Of course good things can happen by accident; monkeys, typewriters and Shakespeare come to mind. But, if you want to do this right, you need to know your intentions and how YOUR lines relate to the rest of the ensemble. If you are plonking around randomly, it will only ever be 'nearly but not quite'.

ja, oui, vai, si, sim, da, yup, yuth, yeah, yes......

The question itself indicates a conceptual misunderstanding on what defeines a walking bass line. In common parlance, a walking bass line is essentially straight crotchets that move around the chord changes of a tune. Whilst there is plenty of room for ornamentation, if it strays too far from straight crotchets, it ceases to be a walking line and becomes something else (whcih can be equally beautiful but probably less 'grounded'). Walking lines can include pretty much any note if it is arrived at and passed through in a logical way although there are some common practices that are less extreme than others. The random use of notes in a scale will not work well as it would be like a sentence that has no beginning middle or end. It not would work just (listen to Moondance for an example of this - random notes with no internal logic). As Doddy says, the use if the third defines the chord type although the absence of that third can create a lovely open feel harmonically (Coltrane did this in several of his compositions - using sus4 chords instead of majors). The line R, 3rd, 5th, 6th, b7th mentioned by Blademan is a cliched rock and roll bass line and, although it is perfectly correct, it would be considered uninspired in a jazz tune and generally avoided. In order to work walking bass lines credibly, you really do need to understand harmony as regurgitating cliches would be transparent to anyone who knows what they are talking about and would undermine the overarching ensemble sound. Playing a modal piece will allow a player to stay with one scale for long periods (which can be deeply challenging in its own right) but most be-bop or standards walking lines require the player to interpret the chord sequences as a series of key changes that require changes of scales at leaset every few bars but sometimes as many as 4 times a bar. Walking bass lines - a moment to learn and a lifetime to master. For those who are interested, I have posted the dots for several straight walking lines on here. Housed From Edward by Milt Hinton, Hesitation by Ron Carter, Joy SPring by John Patitucci and Play The Blues and Go by Ben Wolfe. I receommend the Milt Hinton chart for first time walkers.

[quote name='ElCapitan' post='1088103' date='Jan 13 2011, 03:00 PM']Rush fans have hardly any friends on Facebook. I hate Rush and have, like, hundreds of friends.[/quote] Do you know any of them?

Rush are great because they are who they are and noone else. An iconic musician in every role, with the possible exception of Lee's keyboard playing, they have carved a niche all of their own. Frankly, I think there are better songwriters/players/singers/lyricists etc than each of them but, as a unit in toto, they are unbeatable. It took me years to realise it but I actually think the most original player in the trio is Lifeson. His guitar playing is actually really creative and he sounds like noone else. Despite their reputations, Peart has limitations as does Lee but, overall, a great band. I currently find them all but unlistenable but I was a Rush nut from Caress of Steel to Moving PIctures after which they lost me. But, for a while there, they were the one.

I like the look of this ear training stuff and will look later (no access in work). I think Band in a Box has a few ear training tuition tools on it as well. I did work in this aspect using the system advocated by Mark Levine; using the notes of songs to learn intervals e.g the first two notes of Smoke on the Water are a minor third apart, the first two of My Way a sixth, Star Trek theme a flattened seventh. I have tried chordal listening but find that I am [i]much[/i] slower. What does com eout of this discussion is the fact that these great players work damn hard on their learninig and do so for decades. They know that you can't nail it by buying a dvd and looking at Youtube clips of double thumbing. Re: Delberthot's comments. Working on instinct not intelligence may work for some but its not something one should advocate as it gives people, particularly young impressionable people with an underdeveloped work ethic, tacit permission to avoid investing the appropriate time in studying. 'Good enough' is just not good enough

[quote name='sprocketflup' post='1086938' date='Jan 12 2011, 05:12 PM']I lived in Undy for a while [/quote] My oldest friend is from Undy! Great night life, eh?

Originally from Cwmbran, I did my first few hundred jazz gigs in Cardiff (Four Bars Inn and Sandringham Hotel, amongst others). Welcome.

Seems to me a matter of perception. If something is Art, it can also be entertaining. It can be good art and bad entertainment, or bad Art and good entertainment. At best, it is good Art and good entertainment. It can communicate successfully to one person or to millions. It can have a utilitarian purpose (e.g. pottery) or not (e.g. origami?). If it has a commercial purpose, it may still be Art or it may not. In art college terms, is it Graphic Art or Fine Art? One is craft whilst the other Art. Both are creative. An artwork can be Fine Art but, if used as a chocolate box lid, becomes something else. Music is no different. Some music is Art (say Bjork, Evan Parker, Stravinsky, Coltrane) some arguably isn't (say Stock, Aitken and Waterman). Some is probably both (Kate Bush? Talking Heads? King Crimson? Kenny Wheeler?). Either way, its not my decision. At best, it is about consensus - if more than one person thinks its Art, then it must be. Or not. Who said a pile of bricks is Art? I suspect it was a minority view. What about action Art? Performance Art? Good Art or bad? It has to be subjective (and culturally defined?). Whenever someone tries to draw a circle around what defines Art, someone else will step onto the line and over it. Is music Art? Some of it is.

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1086029' date='Jan 11 2011, 08:28 PM']How about you record and post your version, and I'll post mine? [/quote] I'll see what I can do with Cubase and a drum machine. And the drummer in the function band has a Zoom thing so can record the tune on the next gig (its not until April tho'). Should be interesting!! A Chic duel

Me neither and I still can't afford £50 (plus travel) for a lesson

Just got an email for a wedding gig - we will be doing Good Times

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1085754' date='Jan 11 2011, 05:24 PM']By the way and in the politest possible way I think your analysis of the line misses the point entirely. My wife (many years of ballet/jazz/modern/fusion dancing) thinks it's a brilliant line justifying that with a totally different set of criteria related to how the rhythmic interplay between instruments creates contrast, space and emphasis for moving the body. In contrast she has no time for things like Coltrane because that element of jazz has been subsumed! It's much easier to do analyses based on harmony/scales but quite often they're just not relevant.[/quote] You are not seriously suggesting that Coltrane and Chic have a different target audience, are you? God forbid . My dig a Good Times is simply a wry dig at the deification of certain bands/certain songs and lines as 'the best' or as 'definitive etc when it is so, err, unremarkable. I know perfectly well that Good Times will fill a dance floor and A Love Supreme would clear it but, if you want to fill a dance floor I recommend I Will Survive, Summer Loving, Come On Eileen or any one of 1,000,000 songs. All you need is a backbeat and familiarity. Good Times is perfectly adequate for the purpose described but 'the greatest'? Hard for me to see why that over any one of 100 other disco hits. (Actually, my Brazillian band always turns heads when we do a bossa version of 'How Deep Is Your Love' by the Bee Gees - they're disco, aren't they?)

I know what you think I mean but you are wrong

[quote name='dlloyd' post='1085552' date='Jan 11 2011, 02:43 PM']Having fun is where it's at.[/quote] Fun is overated. I think it should be something you have when you are doing something satisfying and of value and not just an end in itself. Fun, on its own, can be pretty boring and aimless. I never watch comedies because they don't seem to have much point

Its an inevitable consequence of repetition. Music is a mixture of tensions and release and getting the right mix of tension and release is what defines a good piece of music. Most people would say 'Twinkle, Twinke' lacked harmonic, melodic and rhythmic interest but most people would also balk at Even Parker's The Snake Decides (20 minutes of circular breathing on sopranon saxophone with no conventional harmonic or melodic content). Everyone has their own 'levels' which determines what they prefer to listen to and like. But these 'levels' are always changing and more so in musicians who play and listen more than the average punter. So, if we play a cover often, it will usually pale after a while due to the fact that our needs change whilst the tune doesn't. That's why I like jazz. It makes the journey with you. The further out you need to go, the further it will allow you. Doing covers 'accurately' is more of a static thing and fails to move with you into new listening territory.

I also think Fish and Chips is completely overrated = If Good Times is great dance music, great dance music is an oxymoron Pretentious? Moi?

High on everything except emotional connection.

My view on Good Times? Its the classic problem with dance orientated music. 'Great' line (is it?) but the tune is actually bubble gum. [i]Good times, These are the good times, Leave your cares behind, These are the good times Good times, These are the good times, Our new state of mind, These are the good times Happy days are here again, The time is right, For makin' friends ,Let's get together, How 'bout a quarter to ten, Come tomorrow, Let's all do it again Boys will be boys, Better let them have their toys, Girls will be girls, Cute pony tails and curls Must put an end, To this stress and strife, I think I want to live the sporting life A rumor has it that, It's getting late, Time marches on, Just can't wait The clock keeps turning, Why hesitate, You silly fool, You can't change your fate Let's cut a rug, A little jive and jitterbug, We want the best, We won't settle for less Don't be a drag, Participate, Clams on the half shell, And roller-skates , Roller-skates[/i] Is it just me or is it junior school level poetry? I particularly liek the rhyming of boys and toys, girls and curls, late and wait.... Every rhyme is entirely predictable (the first thing that would come into most people's heads) and forced. It isn't Mark Twain, is it? At least Joni Mitchell doesn't have to worry about losing a grammy to Chic. I always think that the best songs are made up of great music and great lyrics. Good Times is essentially two riffs which are 4 bars long, both rifs are against the same two diatonic chords a perfect fourth apart. Probably the first chord change anyone with a guitar ever learns? The only thing that is even credible is the bass line and that, whilst it is iconic, is three notes on the beat followed by what is essentially a dorian minor scale (EF#GABC#DE) followed, in turn, by a slightly more interest lick on the A using the sixth and dominant seventh. The singers are [i]really[/i] lightweight (would never have made boot campm on X Factor) and the whole thing is just not very interesting. For me, and I stress again that this is and can only ever be subjective, Good Times evidence what I consider to be one of the maladys of musicians; we like the part so the whole tune must be good. Its a great bass line on a crap song. Like a lot of Jamerson, Marcus Miller, Pino etc - great players playing great lines on crap songs. Sax players like songs that make the sax player look good, as do guitarists, drummers and everyone else. Bass players are no different. Is that specific enough, Pete? I understand that people like it but they also like Mustang Sally and Moondance. This is as bad.

[quote name='fatback' post='1084252' date='Jan 10 2011, 02:29 PM']Interesting point about not going back. I'm inclined to keep going back until I can get everything right, but it's hugely time consuming. Probably memory comes into play too much as well.[/quote] You are learning to [i]read[/i] not to [i]play[/i]. If you are on a gig, you don't get a second chance but what you do get is to get used to the process of transferring what you see to what you do with yoiur hands. If you keep stopping and going back, you are focussing on the [i]content [/i]and not the [i]process[/i] of reading. Best reading lesson I ever had, with a guy called Dan Quinton from Otis Grand and the Dance Kings, was him putting new stuff in front of me one after the other without any breaks for half an hour. If I stalled, he took the chart away and put another one up, no comment. Completeley exhausting but a massive learning experience.