Bilbo

That is a good cd but look for a Wynton Kelly cd called Blues On Purpose. It was recorded around the same time as the Smokin' lp and is really strong. PC does a 10 chorus solo (12-bar blues) that just lifts and lifts and has the audience really whippedu up and he takes it further that any other solo I have heard him play (and I have heard hundreds and hundreds)

Welcome. I had a Bath once.....

Sometimes but not often. I like hearing some of what's about in the genre but seldom buy any. For me, the tension arises from the fact that jazz is about the sound of surprise and funk is about repetition. As the repetition in jazz funk is primarily on the part of the rhythm section, I usually get frustrated quite quickly and look elsewhere. But there are exceptions.

[quote name='urb' post='1018688' date='Nov 10 2010, 12:43 PM']Looking forward to the London Jazz Fest Bilbo...? See you on Friday Cheers Mike[/quote] Absolutely - all set for the experience and really looking forward to it.

Dave Holland, Steve Rodby and Jeff Berlin

Just rediscovered a CD called [b]Unison[/b] by French double bass player [b]Jean Francois Jenny Clark [/b]- what a player and what a tone! Some pretty demanding free jazz but his playing is so strong it is impossible not to get involved! I will be looking for more recordings with him on. Also downloaded a great cd by [b]Chris Cheek [/b]called [b]A Girl Named Joe [/b]- it features Marc Johnson on double bass. Some great writing on there. And a Joe Lovano CD called [b]Sound of Joy [/b]with [b]Anthony Cox [/b]on bass - another massive sound and a really strong player. Where are these guys and why aren't they more renowned?

Its what got me into jazz Series of teenage rock bands w bad singers (no real prospect of 'making it') so Got into listening to instrumental rock bands then Got into fusion etc then Got into Jazz Now know loads of singers....

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='1018244' date='Nov 9 2010, 11:07 PM']And hands up how many of you tried two-handed tapping before you tried reading music? I know I did![/quote] Me too. Jeff Berlin's 'Motherlode', tunes off Stu Hamm's 'Radio Free Albemuth', some Dave Lee Roth era Billy Sheehan. And I never used any of it again. I have since recognised it for the shallow circus trick it generally is and have focussed my energies on more meaningful (and less time consuming) musical study. I think bass tapping is almost universally the worst sound you can get out of a bass without driving over it....

Re: Reading Reggae. All notated music requires the musician to have idiomatic knowledge. Classical musicians often can't read jazz charts and jazz musicians often can't read classical etc. I did a show recently which included Queen's 'Don't Stop Me Now'. When that tune was played, it was clear that some people could 'rock' and others couldn't. My early experiences were in Heavy Metal and, accordingly, I could make the chart live. When I was trying to play some Sweeny Todd stuff, it didn't gel because it was written for arco bass which I don't play so, even though it was an easy read (tied minims FFS), it didn't 'sing'. Nothing to do with reading but to do with understanding the idiom. A reggae bassline written down will work perfectly well but only if you understand reggae and its idiomatic characteristics. For the record, my 'fixed view' on reading is for Basschat eyes only and serves as a foil for the 'you don't need to read' school of thought that many espouse all too readily here. I like where reading (and writing) has taken me over the years and value it highly. I advocate for that reason alone. If noone here ever reads a note again, I think it would be a shame but, at the same time, it doesn't matter a jot. I just wish I had met someone like me when I was 17, who could have given me this stuff ten years before I found it myself. Its a truckload more useful than two handed tapping.

[quote name='paul h' post='1017642' date='Nov 9 2010, 03:04 PM']I have read posts where a reader states categorically, and completely seriously, that jazz fans are more intelligent that everyone else. A reader has also said (and I paraphrase) that playing cover versions, something a lot of us do, is infantile and beneath him.[/quote] That was me!!! I am a troll and I didn't know it!!

All good stuff but only if it is not used to justify NOT seeking to improve your knowledge and skill base ('I'll never learn it all so there is no point in learning any of it'). Just be yourself or try to be the best self you can possibly be? Your call.

[quote name='silddx' post='1017439' date='Nov 9 2010, 12:58 PM']Just be yourself.[/quote]

At the moment, because I am working on building stamina for double bass playing, I put the metronome on a chosen tempo and play walking bass lines against the off beat. Its working as I can feel my stamina improving. I then spend some time with the bow working on intonation (and Sevcik and Bach) and then reward myself with some practise on improvisation. I then put the bass down (after about an hour - it is hard work if I play too long) and get to my composing/arranging practice which I actually prefer doing at the moment because it is less uncomfortable to do!! PS this happens only two or three times a week as I have other things calling on my time.

[quote name='silddx' post='1017412' date='Nov 9 2010, 12:41 PM']Anyway, whatever, it doesn't matter how much theory you have or how good you can sight read, only certain people can play reggae, and there is absolutely no way to put down on paper how to play reggae that has the desired effect on the other band members and the audience. Funk is similar, it's a way of life.[/quote] You are probably right.

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='1017338' date='Nov 9 2010, 11:34 AM']Can I just ask why so many threads recently decend into this weekend rockstars who play bass versus pro musicians who play bass? If you go and play some great music you like with your mates and are happy with it then be happy. Listen to more types of music if you want but thats fine, but why knock guys who do it as a living? Yes you probably sound great but why the inferiority complex with guys who make their living from this so need to know their theory, notation etc.? Equally for a lot of types of music you don't need to study massivly. If you can play bass apropiate for the music you're playing then great.[/quote] Its because we care, mate. There are a lot of assumptions in there, Luke. I care passionately about the music I play (to my own detriment) and love where studying music properly has taken and continues to take me. I am not a pro and, at the moment, make next to nothing financially from it (one £50 gig this month). I turn down gigs that would bore me or when I know the music will be bad, the same as everyone else who doesn't do it for a living. I do know, from feedback that I have had, that I could compete with many out there that are professional but I can't deal with the hussling element and, unlike many out there (who I respect enormously), I don't enjoy playing every sort of music and get bored easily. So, as most of the music that is performed in this country is not stuff I actually like very much, most of the pro gigs that are available are not for me. I care about music and hate to see it done badly the same way many people here hate watching the X Factor debacle (sorry, Mrs T). I advocate for proper study and believe that those who argue against it are sending out a bad message for young players who may have ambition and need a bit of direction that they can't get from 'proper' teachers who cost an arm and a leg. Internet forums are a great way of sharing enthusiasm but they are also a great way of encouraging bad habits and the illusion of the quick fix. Being a musician is hard work and takes hundreds and thousands of hours of dedicated practice. But hard work can be as much fun as a night out with the lads.... Fun doesn't have to mean wasted time. My personal position is, if you aren't going to do this seriously (and 'seriously' doesn't mean 'professionally'), then get out of the way.......

[quote name='silddx' post='1017311' date='Nov 9 2010, 10:58 AM']And so are most jazz tunes.[/quote] A crap tune is a crap tune, whatever the genre. The thing that tends to turn me off a lot of stuff is repetition (that's one of the main reasons I don't like slap bass and tapping; both are generally based upon repeated figures). IME, a lot of groove orientated stuff is the same two bars repeated again and again or the same riff played in different places all over the neck (often a fourth above etc). Jazz tunes tend to require a little more from the performers and repetition is (and I generalise) seen as a cop out. When I refer to a thumper, I am refering to tunes that require the players to just keep whacking away at the core riffs, be that a shuffle, straight roots on the beat or just a repeated ostinato. The Fez is based on a repeated riff. Black Friday is a root note shuffle etc. Cousin Dupree, Haitian Divorce, Rikki Don't Lose That Number, Reelin' In The Years' its cool but its all pretty basic. Aja is a different kettle of fish, yes, but a lot of it is exceptionally well executed mediocrity.

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1017296' date='Nov 9 2010, 10:45 AM']Once you've got all the changes in your head, the hardest part of the Dan tunes is getting the right feel. But when you consider the bassists they use live, they go more for groove-orientated players, such as Freddie Washington.[/quote] FW is renowned as one of the best readers in the business, Go figure.....

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1017285' date='Nov 9 2010, 10:35 AM']Larry Graham...a perfect example of a 'groove-orientated thumper'. [/quote] Absolutely. Great at what he does and usually holds my attention for at least half a tune

[quote name='silddx' post='1017267' date='Nov 9 2010, 10:16 AM']I doubt I would be able to impress upon most jazz musicians the importance of such things, as they seem to be of little importance to the jazz musician,[/quote] It is an issue that jazzers are dealing with more and more although there are barriers - the budgets for international touring jazz musicians are probably less than that of Cetera's 'Dressed To Kill' package so light shows etc are usually pretty basic. There are many jazz musicians who are great at engaging the audience but it is true that when you are playing your butt off on a complex set of compositions, the concept of 'putting on a show' in the sense you mean it is a secondary consideration. [quote name='silddx' post='1017267' date='Nov 9 2010, 10:16 AM']just as high levels of theoretical knowledge and ability to read notation are not as important to musicians like me and Pete, even though we play a lot more complex music than "groove oriented thumpers".[/quote] Dan compositions are undoubtedly exceptional in terms of being a cut above but most of them are, fundamentally, quite simple. I played Black Friday at a recording session last week and, frankly, its a thumper Some of the more complex Dan tunes may take a little more work but they are not actually that difficult to pull off. To play them like the Dan do is another matter and I am in awe of their performances but a lot of that is down to the calibre of the (mostly jazz) musicians they employ and the massive amounts of rehearsal time they put in not the innate qualities of their compositions.

[quote name='chris_b' post='1016622' date='Nov 8 2010, 05:38 PM']I bet Bilbo can play in 24/13. I must have missed that chapter![/quote] You write it out, I'll play it. I think one of the aspects if the argument that has not been mentioned relates to the complexity of the music being performed. Most rock/pop music etc is pretty basic and being able to groove by ear is a credible prospect as the core of the music to be performed is very simple and idiomatically familiar. Some forms are, however, more complex and require a considerable amount of detail the learning of which is problemtaic. A sax player playing a solo over a 12-bar jazz blues may be possible with no knowledge of theory but playing over Lush Life, Chelsea Bridge, Upper Manhattan Medical Group or Giant Steps 'by ear' is a different prospect altogether. Is it credible to expect orchestral musicians to learn Stravinsky's Rite of Spring 'by ear'. Or a trumpet player to learn a full big band so they can play it live without charts (to create that illusion that someone mentioned )? So, if all you ever play is low brow groove orientated thumpers, as most do, then you can get away with it, especially as a bass player. If you want more (and I certainly do), your going to struggle without some form of knowledge of notation. I find that the number and type of gigs I do militate against the kinds of familiarity you get from playing regularly with just one band. I am rarely playing anything often enough to learn it by rote. The dots help me to play more and more music and to stay fresh and interested. Another aspect is improvisation. Improvising over simple forms is possible by ear but more complex structures will require more academic knowledge in order to avoid boring yourself and the audience with cliches.

All this 'groove is king' stuff is missing the fact that grooving is as theoretical a concept as advanced harmony. Making a good performance great is about a wholistic approach to the music. A great groove with a few bum notes is a flawed a result as all the correct notes and no feel. Groove is theory. And maths is art.

[quote name='silddx' post='1016533' date='Nov 8 2010, 04:27 PM']So much for the oral tradition,[/quote] Its overrated I do think people are advocating for ignorance, albeit unconsciously. We al do it all the time - its how we get out of doing the laundry. In order to feel good about the ways in which we behave, we need to convince ourselves that our choices are valid. If we choose not to read, we need to feel that that choice is legitimate and not simply a case of us not havign invested in what is necessary to be a fully developed musician. So we fill our heads with little lies and haf-truths that make this an ok choice: so & so can't read and he is great ergo I can't read and I too can be great. Additionally, if I can convince everyone else that this is so, I will be affirmed in my belief and can ignore that nagging doubt that I have in the back of my mind that I am missing out on something. Something wonderful. We you can't and you are.

[quote name='chris_b' post='1016480' date='Nov 8 2010, 03:46 PM']Reading has been a pretty irrelevant skill for most people for most of human history. Western musical theory has been irrelevant to most people for most of human history, and still is to a large part of the world![/quote] And how many wonderful stories are lost forever? I read somewhere that there is a relationship between literacy and progress and that this relates to the ability of a literate society to record its ideas and replicate concepts easily (like how to manufacture things etc). My point is simple. If Fred, in Australia can read music, and Bert in the UK can write it, they can communiate ideas. More to the point, if Fred is in France and can write it, he can communicate ideas to Ivan in Russia, who speaks neither French or English.. More to the point, if Fred can write music in 1926 and Bert can read it is 2010, the idea lives on. If Fred can write it down but Bert can't, then the idea dies with Fred. Its a more efficient and effective way of communicating, if all parties are able. If reading is not a requirement, a reader can still play and groove. If reading is a requirement, a non-reader won't know what groove to play until it is too late. When I do a reading rehearsal, we can get through 20+ tunes a session. If we learn by rote, we get three down if we are lucky (depending on the complexity of the music). I can turn up at a recording session (like I did last week) with players I barely know and record 5 tunes in 3 hours without any rehearsal. Why anyone would not want to be able do that is beyond me. I believe that people who, albeit by unconscious implication, advocate for ignorance in others in order to allow themselves to feel ok about their own are not doing themselves or anyone else any favours. If you can't read, its nothing to be ashamed of. But it is certainly nothing to be proud of either. Read the signature

[quote name='phil.i.stein' post='1016307' date='Nov 8 2010, 01:17 PM']let's put this in non-musical terms. Q. do you need to be able to read to communicate with other people ? A. ..no[/quote] What did he say? I can't read..... Can you imagine how limited the internet would be for you if you didn't read? Now transfer that to music

Its really not that important. Do it and see what happens. If it sucks, you have increased kudos with your bandmates who may now listen if you say we are not ready. What I do know is you will learn more by doing it than not. Also, the nine month wait? It normally takes a couple of years before you start getting calls in a new area.