Bilbo

[quote name='The Funk' post='600861' date='Sep 16 2009, 10:48 PM']If he was using the language of Western Classical music, I'd agree with you. But he's probably using the language of the blues, with its blue notes and quarter note bends.[/quote] Touché

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='600684' date='Sep 16 2009, 08:24 PM']Actually Bilbo, I've done some (forgettable) jazz gigs where I'm convinced some players WERE using random notes - but we'll gloss over that.[/quote] Playing jazz is a high risk undertaking but, like pop music, some people get the superficialities and go with it. I have heard (and played with) some small groups that are well intentioned but fundamentally dreadful. [quote name='Major-Minor' post='600684' date='Sep 16 2009, 08:24 PM']And that's another good word to bring to the party - FLUENCY. A jazz musician will know their instrument inside out, will know the effect of every scale and arpeggio and how these notes can be overlaid against the underlying harmony to create the soundscape they desire.[/quote] Agreed but when does someone become a 'jazz musician? Is it after they have developed this fluency or while they are still developing it? I think, for me, one of the great things that jazz allows is for individuals to develop their own voice (that is one of the great differences between jazz and classical). So a guitar player like Jim Hall or Bill Frissel, who cannot 'burn' like Coltrane or Brecker, can still be a credible force in the music. But I think you are absolutely right when you say that a jazz musician needs to understand the intricacies of the music he or she is playing. Busking it without that knowledge may have been possible in the early days of trad etc but busking against Airegin or Lush Life or UMMG or Joy Spring etc would be all but impossible.

There is no note between Fsharp and G because, if you are using the language of Western music, which you are, you implicitly default to the tempered scale and there are only 12 notes etc. If you are using quarter tones, the theory we all use in Western harmony is effectively null and void. There are those purists who believe there is a subtle difference between Fsharp and Gb but they are increasingly rare. Personally, I think you're just a nutjob

[quote name='Jobiebass' post='600257' date='Sep 16 2009, 02:40 PM']..... usually only play for 10 mins before I get pissed off and put it down.[/quote] I think I know what your problem is......(PS £6.50 if you keep the Shuker)

A section......

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='599979' date='Sep 16 2009, 10:56 AM']Because there are (and have been) many thousands of jazz musicians since this music emerged, its impossible to say that jazz is this, or jazz is that, because every participant brings his or her own preferences and styling to their improvising. There are simply too many "voices" in the world of jazz to make bold statements like "such and such a band is not jazz". If those musos are bringing a freshness to each performance because of its openness to creativity, then we could say that it is jazz.[/quote] Only up to a point, Major (although no one will agree where that point is). Improvisation exists in many genres not just jazz so to say that anything that is improvised in the way you describe is jazz is too simplistic. [quote name='Major-Minor' post='599979' date='Sep 16 2009, 10:56 AM']However there are certain stylistic aspects that are prevalent in what is universally accepted as jazz: Jazz music tends to be rhythm based - there is usually some form of pulse in the majority of the music. Harmonically this music tends to be deeper and richer than the 3 or 4 note chords used in pop and rock styles. The use of dissonance and "tension and release" are common. The music is predominantly instrumental in nature. The use of dynamics varies hugely across this genre, but is more common than in rock/pop.[/quote] We probably agree on far more than we don't. The best definition I ever heard is credited to various people, including Louis Armstrong; 'if you have to ask, you'll never know' My point is simple: its not random. Ever. If Coltrane played 'random' notes on Giant Steps its would not be the classic it is. If you can't hear it, fine, but its not random. Its like any dialogue or conversation. It requires a knowledge of syntax, sentence construction, logical argument etc; it develops in the moment. If it was random, the cheese fleck party rhumba wet the floogy plim plim and then where would we be? .

Giant Steps is undoubtedly a bit rich for people who have been brough up on a diet of, errr, Pixie Lott... but, PLEASE. can people get the word random out of their vocabularies when discussin gjazz. Its is never random. It can be bad and you may not like it (I don't give a rat's..) but it is NEVER, EVER randon Jazz is a VERY broad church and many of us who visit regularly would suggest that Fourplay just aren't jazz (they told Larry Carlton NOT to play blue notes - how CAN that be jazz ). I'll give you the rest, Major.... but all of that is an argument for another thread. The trouble is that people keep going to listen to the hard stuff without developing the ear required to 'get it'. Yes, most of this stuff is improvised - that, at least, is one variable that is common to most things that sit under the umbrella term 'jazz', but some of it is beautifully written too. Try some Duke Ellington stuff: go to Spotify and look up Johnny Hodges playing ''Isfahan', Day Dream', or 'Blood Count' or look for 'Such Sweet Thunder' or 'And His Mother Called Him Bill'. If you don' t 'get' that, you are dead from the neck up - I am not saying you have to like it, that would be too much to ask, but you should 'get it'. Try Medeski, Martin and Wood playing 'Julia', 'Tequila and Chocolate' or 'Legalise It'. John Scofield playing 'Georgia On mY Mind' or Pat Metheny on 'Don't Know Why'. T'ain't rocket science, guys.

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Concepts-Bass-Soloing-Chuck-Sher/dp/1883217008/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1252941689&sr=8-1"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Concepts-Bass-Solo...1689&sr=8-1[/url]

Dave Holland's drummer for a few years. He's great.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='596433' date='Sep 12 2009, 11:27 AM']listen to Oscar Peterson or Keith Jarrett, while improvising they sound like they are mumbling, manic, toilet strainers, but the music is awesome.[/quote] Paul Chambers did it, Wynton Kelly, Slam Stewart, Chick Corea (who does it so badly, it is brilliant ), George Benson, of course. Its actually quite common but some people are just a little more discrete about it.

There is a lovely anecdote in Bull Bruford's autobiography where he is playing with Tony Levin in King Crimson. Early on, Bruford tried to get Levin to 'play more' by playing more but, the more Bruford did, the less Levin did. Bruford finally figured it out. Its an interesting point but are some of the criticms for busy drummers about busy drumming or is it about drummers not allowing us bass players to indulge ourselves unabated (16th note grooves sound far better over a straight groove than a busy one). Personally, I don't care how busy they are if they are musical. Regrettable, busy doesn't usually serve the music. I never really thought of Peart as busy. He just plays the parts he has written. Like it or not, its him. I also think that, whilst he is a very good and creative player, he is entirely overrated (ducks......).

Couple of things, Steve. You have a problem with your double bass tone. It needs filling out; a lot of the swing is in the tone and you need to build some sustain. You will hear it more in slower tunes like MO&OL and the two feel sections of Celia, where the notes are not ringing like they should. It’s a stamina thing that will improve with time (it’s not a problem on the Nature Boy track because the sustain is there). Your lines are logical though, as Jake says, and you obviously know what notes to play (and what order to play them in), it’s just a question of dealing with the instrument (the easiest bit to address). Also, Hamish has some timing issues of his own and is really cramping your style on ‘My One and Only Love’, playing the root notes as well as you so the timing issues Bassace mentioned are highlighted. The drummer is not great on the ballad either and his ‘touch’ is a bit laissez faire. To be fair to the guy, some of that may be the recording (one mic or two?). Your solo on Minority shows me that you have the core skills you just need to tighten them up with practice. One of the things I find if I go away from jazz for too long (and I am talking weeks not years) is my MIND slows down and I can’t think fast enough at high tempos. If you haven’t played jazz for a while, you will need to spend some time with the music to get back into it mentally. Oh, and your dynamics are great. But, in terms of your ambitions, I think you are a whole lot nearer where you want to be than you think. There are a lot of DB players out there who you could cut today in terms of basic musiciality. Of course, this is all the opinion of someone who bottled the upright because of CTS.

Yes, its Sibelius (I think its version 2 - I have had it for so long but I have never felt the need to upgrade (or had the money ). I had another notation software before but it was a bit naff as it didn't play your charts back to you so its value was limted. I think Sibelius is marvellous and would recommend it to anyone.

[quote name='lowdown' post='594726' date='Sep 10 2009, 01:32 PM']Cheers Bilbo.. But i do think Dm6 on a B bass is Bm7-5... Sure Matt will put us right. Good one Garry[/quote] Doh! - It a good job I don't do these for a living

My recollection is Karn is completely untrained and doesn't know what he is doing, he just does it. Or was that just 'anti-establishment' posturing? Who care? He pushed the envelope and that is always a good thing. I'll read it. And he had great taste in basses

My money is on Rainy but I am open to challenge. This one is harder to read but there is a lot of repetition so that helps. My chords are also probably iffy (Mat?) but I do try....

I was working on my book all day today and needed to unwind so, with Basschat learner readers in mind, I transcribed Will Lee's bass line of Fagen's 'Walk Between The Raindrops' off his classic 1982 recording 'The Nightfly'. The chart is fairly easy to read but it is the groove that carrise the learning opportunity. The chords are mine so, if I am wrong, please let me know. The second chart is amended to include Mat's changes....good call, Mat.

Dave Holland, Marc Johnson, Renaud Garcia Fons, Miroslav Vitous, Scott Colley, Milt Hinton.....

As you have probably already found, displays of technique are pretty unsatisfying. They fool some people all of the time but they won't fool you and you are the one who has to live with it!

I am loving that first one, faithless. The simplicity of the arrangement vs the complex lines. Marvellous.

I am loving that first one, faithless. The simplicity of the arrangement vs the complex lines. Marvellous.

The Blues is everything in jazz. It is where you will start and where you will end. Its all in there. A jazz blues is different to a rock blues. F7/// Bb7/// F7/// //// Bb7/// //// F7/// D7/// Gm7/// C7/// F7/// //// I would recommend you start with listening to some other people play the blues, the people who define the genre. Charlie Parker, Miles Davis (No More Blues, Straight No Chaser, Walkin'. Sids Ahead), SOnny Rollins Tenor Madness, John Coltrane Blue Train. There are 1,000s of them. Learn some other peoples solos. The blues scale is important but there is more: mixolydian scale (major scale starting on 5th), chromatics etc. I recommend you follow Jakebass's advice and sing your solos as you play them (Keith Jarrett does it, Chick Corea, Paul Chambers sis it). It helps you connect with the relationship between your ideas and the music. Have fun

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Nsys9d99HY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Nsys9d99HY[/url] Here's that opening track of the dvd. Its called Incompatibilidade De Gênios - Ney's bass solo starts around 2.35 but its the feel of the hole thing that I love. I would love to have this gig!

[quote name='JPS' post='587685' date='Sep 2 2009, 04:53 PM']Can you recommend any other versions of Bye Bye Blackbird out of interest?[/quote] There is a great version on Keith Jarrett's Miles Davis tribute cd 'Bye Bye Blackbird'. Coltrane did a version. Rickie Lee Jones did it, Joe Cocker, Ben Webster, Oscar Peterson. There are loads out there. The trouble with fake books is that the chord name is sometimes too simplistic as the tendency is to go for a default chord shape where a specific voicing is required. You'll probably find that the chord is correctly name (most Sher charts are pretty good) but you need to find which voicing creates the texture you are looking for. I wish I could give you a better answer but I am very busy at the moment and can't get to spend time with the charts and the original recording. I will try to get to it when I can but can't promise.

Which real book? These are substitutions that Davis didn't use. I think it is in F as I recall (not 100% sure and am not at home). If you let us know which fake book you are working to, we may be able to help explain what's going on. I picked these up off the net. Your chords are a common variation but, rather than starting on an F7 and descending chromatically, they start on the third of the F7b9, the Am7b5. The Abdim7 in the 6th bar is a tritone substition for the more diatonic D7b9. F --- l ----- l ----- l ----- F---- l Abdim7 l Gm7 l C7 Gm7 l ----- l ----- l C7 Gm7 l C7 l F l ----- F7 l ---- l Am7b5 l D7 Gm7 l Gm7 l Bbm Eb7 l Gm7 C7 F l ---- l Am7b5 l D7 Gm7 l C7 l F l ----- I think there is a good chart in the Chuck Sher Real Book.