Bilbo

Self deprecation is a great way of justifying not having to do anything remotely demanding. Like learning to read music.

You're a lot of things, bbc, but you are certainly not thick.

I read well enough for most scenarios but wish I could read better (not because I need to, just because I wish I could). I think there are two types of reading; basic reading and sight reading. The first is about learning what the dots mean so you can learn things etc whilst the second is about learning to read the dots in real time so you can play stuff sight unseen right off the bat (like orchestral players). I can do the latter, providing it is not too difficult a part (which most, frankly, aren't). Whatever skill level you have, I would recommend it for the reasons given in the debate you were directed to. It is a tool that I value for playing and for showing others what to play. Readers waste less time learning complex parts when you have limited rehearsal time. And it is not as hard to do as some make out.

[quote name='teej' post='575672' date='Aug 20 2009, 03:34 PM']I think this lack of spontaneity and flexibility is what bugs me the most.[/quote] Absolutely. Its a straight jacket!

One of my small group Latin oufits has a percussionist who uses, amongst other things, a Cajon. Its a surprisingly versatile instrument and I can imagine it would be great for busking (I also like that clay pot thing with a hole in (well, two holes actually. One at the top and one in the side. Huge sound)).

[quote name='tayste_2000' post='575574' date='Aug 20 2009, 02:30 PM']Well yeah to be honest, we'd have one type of artist, someone on stage with a guitar, maybe not even that if they feel the guitar isn't really integral, it can just go on and on. Justifies it a hell of a lot better than some guys playing in a pub just refusing to change anything what so ever.[/quote] Noone came anywhere near advocating that other than those seeking to undermine with sarcasm the arguments being presented.

[quote name='tayste_2000' post='575559' date='Aug 20 2009, 02:18 PM']If we took away everything that wasn't integral to the music where would we end up? Singer songwriters?[/quote] God forbid! [quote]As stated a lot/most pro bands do it, Muse, Nine Inch Nails, Foo Fighters etc[/quote] That makes it ok, then.

[quote name='ironside1966' post='575510' date='Aug 20 2009, 01:34 PM']I live in Yorkshire and have seen bands try their own clever arrangements when the audience expects a cover band, all you got from the audience was a constant shouting play something we know.[/quote] That assumes that those that don't shout anything agree with those that do. Most people just don't shout in public but nevertheless consume quietly. [quote]As for personal development backing is used a lot in the pro would so it is good to at least understand in and another experience you have and something you can bring to your next band should it be required.[/quote] With respect, it ain't rocket science. If the drummer can play with a click, the rest is easy - and, yes, I have done it and it was. [quote]A band wants to play contemporary songs ala Beyonce, Sugababes, Rihanna ......, Done well there is work out there people want to listen to that music[/quote] Yes there are, but they aren't old enough to go into pubs [quote]Get out of the dark ages[/quote] There is an argument that some are walking wide eyed into a new one. [quote]It’s a big would out there with room for diversity, you may not like the band or what they are doing but respect the right for them to do it.[/quote] No problem, as long as people can respect the fact that some of us have opinions that run counter to those of others and choose to express them, reasonably politely, on bass forums. [quote]Good luck with band Tradfusion make your decision on what’s right for the band and not anyone else if I can help PM me[/quote] Likewise

If you can tell the difference between a dog barking and bird singing you are not tone deaf. It is actually a very rare condition. Learning pitches is not that important. What you need to learn is relative pitch i.e. the differences between notes. The best way to do this is by doing scales and chord arpeggio exercises. There are method books out there about this kind of thing but, in my experience, they are only asking you to do what you should be doing anyway which is playing with your ears not just your hands.

A good way of approaching that issue is to try playing solos off another instrument. Jazz-wise, bass players coudl try stuff by baritone saxophonists or trombone players as the range is simialr and the techniques results in very different sets of cliches which results in the use of different default patterns. Anything that makes you break out of the straightjackets we build around ourselves. Thiis is one transcription I did a while back.... [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=48470&hl=gerry+mulligan"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...=gerry+mulligan[/url]

[quote name='leschirons' post='574936' date='Aug 19 2009, 11:48 PM']Music is music, so, whatever it takes to make a great sound and be more entertaining.[/quote] Yes and no. The argument that is raging here is that these backing tracks don't actually 'make a great sound' but merely cover up for a weak one - the difference is more then semantic. And the discussions also shows that, for some, the use of backing tracks makes the event less and not more entertaining. There are a myriad of examples of solo intrumentalists and singers doing beautiful things with one monophonic sound, things that represent real wow! moments for many listeners. That is rarely achieved by layering more and more and more sounds onto a piece. More is not commensurate with better. 'Filling up' the sound of an ensemble with backing tracks is arguably dehumanising. Not necessarily a problem in itself but, for many in the audience, including some who have posted here, it puts a downer on the act and immediately demotes it to second rate. Many audience members value honesty in the music they listen to and respond to artistic integrity. Many of those people see the use of a backing track as compromising that integrity (there are still some that wince at the use of a synthesiser ). Many people who happen upon a solo singer with backing tapes just laugh derisorily and leave by the nearest exit. The use of backing tapes in a bnad setting can have a similar effect. Use what you have creatively and make every note count.

I guess one of the problems those who need these 'aids and adaptations' is that they are often playing cover versions of songs that were never performed live in the first place but 'assembled' in a lab. So they probably are impossible to reproduce live without some digital assistance. I think its called learned helplessness.

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='574233' date='Aug 19 2009, 02:35 PM']'Integrity' = Tripe.[/quote] DOES NOT COMPUTE. DOES NOT COMPUTE.

[quote name='silddx' post='574181' date='Aug 19 2009, 02:09 PM']Mmm, thanks for that, Bilbo. My electric basses are then sterile compared to an acoustic. My audience is ill-informed, have low expectations and are easily impressed. Great. I'll pack it in now then and carry on with my Health & Safety career where my audience is much the same.[/quote] You 'n' me boaf! Seriously, though, I can't see that there is anything wrong with electronic instruments, electronic effects or even samples as a tool. My problem is with the idea of pressing a button at the start of a live song and letting machines doing stuff 'automatically' while the humans play along. Its partial karaoke. Its the tail wagging the dog, If you can't do it without a machine, do something else better.

[quote name='silddx' post='574043' date='Aug 19 2009, 12:54 PM']I think you need to understand that Bilbo is happy in the days before electricity. He's not looking to advance music and performance. I don't think he realises sometimes that the reason a lot of modern orchestral music never gets heard is because the rehearsal and performance costs, along with the generally poor attitude of many rank and file orchestral musicians, makes it prohibitive. If there's a way of programming a computer to simulate an orchestra, why wouldn't you use it. At least then you can allow people to hear your music.[/quote] Mmmm - the Wal would sound marvellous without 'lectric.... You are missing a very important point about the arts in general. The money is there to pay for all of this stuff but, because of the cultures that exist around the music and film industries and, more importantly, the distribution of money within those industries, the 'won't pay' mysteriously gets turned into 'can't pay'. Why is it that Hollywood 'can't afford' orchestras but can afford to pay celebrity actors EIGHT FIGURE sums. Pay them a seven figure sum and get the orchestras back in. In the world we live in, it is no longer enough to make a profit, you have to MAXIMISE it. The electronic orchestras and electronic horn sections that are used as alternatives to the real thing are compartively sterile. Bands can get away with it because audiences are ill-informed, have low expectations and are easily impressed. Take someone to see a big band or an orchestra for the first time and watch their faces. I love to see music progress; I just can't see how cutting as many musicians as possible out of the equation does that! Not all motion is forward.

[quote name='Tradfusion' post='574012' date='Aug 19 2009, 12:40 PM']I am looking for advice and not a lecture on musical ethics...[/quote] Spoilsport

Which part of Essex? North or South?

Your fingers were strong enough to play the bass when you were three. It is not about strength but the efficient use of existing muscles (I like to think of it not as strength but 'grace', like a dancer rather than a weightlifter). The 1234, 3142 exercises provide you with some elements of digital independence but, as you have obviously spotted, the best way to develop this is by playing musical things you haven't played before. But there's the rub. You have to work on things that require you to move your fingers in ways that are not necessarily 'pattern' oriented. If you lock yourself into patterns, you will default to them all of the time and hamper your potential for expression. Saxophonist Iain Ballamy told me to learn to read music because 'it makes you play things you wouldn't otherwise think of'. He is one of the UK's best improvisers so I consider his perspective to be worthy of consideration.

My personal value base is to say if you haven't got a saxophone, you can't produce a saxophone part. The art of music making, for me, is about the creative use of what you have and the use of a certain instrumental line-up to create something special (my most astonishing experience as an audience member was watching a trio of saxophones, polytonal tambourine and hurdy-gurdy (Brackell Jazz Festival late 1990s)). I also find the 'make it like the record' mentality anathema. If you want the record, play the damn record. Live, everything sounds different, even when the original artists are performing. That's where the magic is. I also don't like solos played live that are the same as the record. I demand more of the people I watch than simple reproductions of recorded material. Besides, if the venues are too cheap to pay for an extra musician, why should the musicians that are there invest in kit to make the missing voice available for free? I can see it now: Nigel Kennedy playing the Royal Albert Hall with a backing tape of the London Philharmonic. Marvellous.

Fmndhisud scchtn th mmmnnth....(he says, biting his tongue....)

Great one for phrasing is Alphonso Johnson on 'This Must Be Love' off Phil COllins' Face Value CD. Also 'Behind The Lines' off the same CD. Marvellous.

I loved Squire from Yes and Time and A Word right up to Drama but went elsewhere after that. I love his sound in all its guises but, more importantly, I love his pure creativity. He doesn't sound like anyone else at all and his playing is almost entirely unique. And all with e plectrum! Yes could not be Yes without him. He is one of the greatest British bass players in our history.

The GKMB150s are good and second hand one would come in well under £400. They have the advantage of being very small, self contained and, consequently, very portable. For practice purposes, one of these would be more than adequate.

We play loads of weddings and I find that the audience response depends very little on the performance of the band or the set list. We play the same set most times and the same tune at two different gigs can have completely opposite effects - full dance floor or empty one. This depends on a lot of things that are out of your control e.g. how late it is, how long the day has been, how light/dark it is, whether it is hot or cold, the size or shape of the room. What is of no relevance in determining how successful the evening is are your string guage, whether you nut is wood or graphite and whether you know theory or not !

[quote name='geilerbass' post='566202' date='Aug 11 2009, 08:30 PM']Is that typical Bossa?[/quote] It is a samba (bossa is actually thought of as a samba slowed down). The band's name on the video 'Gione Antony's Bossa Quartet' is erroneous. It just goes out as 'Gione Antony' but Gary, the drummer who posted it on the Tube, was a dep and just made up a name for the post. The track is called A Luz De Tieta by Caetano Veloso. The original is on YouTube somewhere. Try Gilberto Gil (great DVD called Acustico out there somewhere), Milton Nascimento, Chico Buarque, Djavan, Marissa Monte, Maria Bethania (Veloso's sister), Flora Purim, Bebel Gilberto or any other Brazillian artists. Latin music is a broad church. As well as Bossa and Samba you have Pagode, Axe, Forros, Xotes e Bailao, Samba Duro/Pagode Baiano and the more jazz and pop influenced stuff. There is a lot of great stuff out there if you want to go looking for it.