Bilbo

The other day, after having enjoyed the piece for many months, I went to transcribe the bass part to 'O Solitude', a beautiful Purcell composition performed by Branford Marsalis on his 'Braggtown' cd. After a focussed listen, however, I realised that the bass part was only three bars long but repeated 32 or so times. The piece is deeply moving and a profoundly emotional piece. No mindless, complex noodling, just pure melody. So, here it is, the shortest 'full' bass transcription ever! In addition, I dug out an earlier transcription I did 85 years ago of the bass line to Weather Report's 'Mr. Gone' off the CD of the same name. This performance is just a four bar pattern repeating over and over (although I didn't count the time it repeats). Its a great way of enjoying playing along with Zawinuland Shorter without having to learn 'Havona'

[quote name='rslaing' post='477834' date='May 2 2009, 05:42 PM']I have learned my lesson today though, I certainly won't make any more comments unless it agrees with the majority,[/quote] Don't be doing that, mate. We need erudite and considered posts here to counter the general trends. I am often a minority opinion here but, as a jazzer, I know what its like to have no friends so no sweat!!

Why do people who know stuff always get called elitist by people who don't? People who can read generally value it (me included). But why, if I value something, am I accused of being elitist if I advocate for it? Its no different than advocating for Wal basses or Eden amps. It works for me. This is my fundamental position. I can read. It helps me learn and get better - I wish I could do it better (my skill level is probably about the same as Jake's). I think its a good idea to do it for reasons already stated. If you agree with the arguments presented by the readers represented here, go for it. If I can help in any way, I will. If you don't want to, fine. Like I give a rat's For the record, the person who got me to read by telling me 'you've got to' (in an enabling way) was saxophonist Iain Ballamy, one of the UK's finest improvising musicians. Ironic, eh? [url="http://www.ballamy.com/free.html"]http://www.ballamy.com/free.html[/url]

Came across this by accident. Nice playing all round. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y09B-6I5_sI&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y09B-6I5_sI...feature=related[/url]

Use of octaves is also effective as it gives you thinking time and is texturally different for repeating the same note. For example, in the line for Wynton Marsalis' 'Hestitation', which I transcribed and posted here, Ron Carter plays a root, fifth, down an octave, back up the octave, root, fifth, down the octave again, up the octave, root, fifth, root then chromatics through to scalar note choices. Its a variation on a conventional pedal tone but can sound great in the right place. Also rhythmic displacements of all of the above can create wonderful tension (Dave Holland does this a lot) i.e. simple harmonies made to sound complicated simply by moving off the pulse (I would experiment away from the bandstand before you try this stuff in public).

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='477072' date='May 1 2009, 02:49 PM']Given that I'm happy with my ever-evolving music career, do you consider me to be one of those poeple?[/quote] I have no opinion as I don't know how well you play or the nature of the work you do. But I will offer this. There are 1,000s of band's across this country, all trying for a record deal or some other form of professional 'break'. Some of them will get lucky, some won't but what I can say is that the one's that won't are a great deal easier to spot than those that will. Bad singers (a band's death knell), poor rhythm sections, weak material etc. Why do you think record companies often only sign singers and songwriters and not whole bands? If I look back through my career, the bands that have failed have failed because they are flawed, a fact any A& R man worth his salt will spot in 2 minutes; usually the problem is the singer but occasionally one or more weak players pulling the whole thing down. There is also the question of the material. A lot of it sucked, to a greater or lesser extent but, even when it was good, it was only good, not great. What is apparent is that many people are too easily satisfied with a level of playing that is merely adequate. Unmusical drummers are the most common (how hard can drumming for AC/DC actually be?); ego-centric guitar players that are driven by the wrong motives, bass players that drag, horn players that are out of tune etc etc. Trouble is, for many of us, its Hobson's choice: leave the band and do nothing. So we stay and put up with the medicority in the hope that a, it will improve, b, there will be a change resulting in an improvement or, c, something better will come along. As for BBC's query: I was listening to jazz before I learned to read so can only assume my direction of travel was already set. I am 100% confident that reading has helped me grow as a listener as much as it has a player but, no, I wouldn't still be playing Heavy Metal!

[quote name='The Funk' post='477052' date='May 1 2009, 02:31 PM']It seems like there's another debate to be had about whether music is a form of self-expression or a method of communication.[/quote] It's both and more, sometimes at the same time and sometimes not. 'Which one of these quotes is from someone who insists that it's essential to have reading skills? Too easy, WoT. There are other factors; geography is a big one, the ability to take risks, willingness to 'go pro', social & business skills, financial security (the only people I know personally who have gone on to get proper record deals have been those who had wealthy parents who could underwrite their activities. The rest of us had to go and get jobs! This riches to riches story is also true of Miles Davis and the Marsalis Brothers). It is also true to say that some of us are less able to recognise the mediocrity of what we do whilst others have standards that are so high that they will never be achieved. I could have said I have recorded loads of great cds, played with several A-list jazzers and have written some cracking material but I haven't. But I can say that what I HAVE done, such as it is, was all the better because I can read. And that, after all, is what we are discussing.

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='476996' date='May 1 2009, 01:35 PM']Y'see.. this is where you lose me. You seem to think that anything that is attractive to a sizeable number of people is musically worthless. That could be perceived as arrogance.[/quote] Not always, just mostly That's not my point at all. My point is that, because I play and listen to music a lot, most mainstream stuff loses its appeal very quickly. Whatever I thought of 'Canteloupe ISalnd' the first time I heard it, I got bored of it in 1985 so, despite the fact that people ask for it, I won't play it. Call it arrogance if you like. I think its about the fact that one day soon I am going to die and and I don't think I will be lying there thinking 'I wish I had played Cantloupe Island just one more time'! [quote name='wateroftyne' post='476996' date='May 1 2009, 01:35 PM']Whereas I know that I've spent most of my musical life playing original material to music fans who pay good money to listen, and only very occasionally to dance..[/quote] Good for you. I haven't. I have spent my musical life playing mediocre music to people who aren't listening anyway which is ok because they didn't pay. [quote name='wateroftyne' post='476996' date='May 1 2009, 01:35 PM']Your happy in your profound world, though... that's fine. Good on ya. I'm just not a profound person, I guess.[/quote] Am I? I have played about a dozen gigs in my life that were that good. Mostly, I am just huntin' the white whale!! It's not the kill, its the thrill of the chase!

Stevie rocks!

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='476863' date='May 1 2009, 11:48 AM']I don't understand your point here - can you explain it?[/quote] If all you aspire to is getting a good audience reaction (direct or indirect), then you are in for an easy ride - I can give you the set list and you are away. If you want to create something that is a little more profound, original, creative, ambitious etc you will have to resign yourself to smaller and smaller indications of acceptance and be satisfied with the knowledge that YOU know it is better. You will also leave yourself wide open to criticism from those that believe that anything you can't dance to serves no purpose. In a nutshell, it is an art vs craft debate. I prefer music as art rather than commerce; my funeral

[quote name='funkle' post='476807' date='May 1 2009, 10:56 AM']without Carol, I wouldn't have known to go hunting for Jeff....[/quote] Good point. When you are learning, sometimes you have to go through simpler stuff to get to the richer veins. That's why we all get into jazz in the end. Because its better.

Clever? Interesting. provocative, engaging, innovative, stimulating, moving, satisfying, shocking, emotional, profound, exceptional, important, worthy, intriguing, absorbing, appealing or maybe just plain entertaining. 'Clever' just won't cut it, dots or no dots. PS changing keys on a bass or guitar is a lot easier than doing it on keyboards (she could, of course, have used her 'transpose' key). Either way, preperation is the key as much as 'having a good ear' and this is more the case the more sophisticated the music becomes. Whilst I applaud (and value) people that have 'good ears' (I have a good ear. Just the one, the other is tiny and ineffectual), these are only going to work if you remain in your comfort zone. If someone starts throwing in unusual harmonies or chord movements, unexpected rhythms or idiomatic details you are not familiar with, the ear is quickly tested to breaking point. I have done whole gigs 'by ear', starting songs where the only information I have is the first chord (so has pete.young when he depped for me!!). I can get away with it (have done loads of times) but the results are shallow and superficial, uninspired, even crass. Just because the punters or bookers don't complain doesn't make it right. If you play for applause, that's all you'll ever get. Reading is a valuable resource. If you can't do it, its no worse than not being able to read the English language. You'll get by and function perfectly well in your comfort zone. But try driving through a city you don't know if you are unable to read road signs

This is good stuff. There isn't anything here I didn't already know (except the terminology) but framing it is this way gives a different perspective on the relationships between chords which I can think about when I next get to play. Good call!

[quote name='Captain Bass' post='476496' date='Apr 30 2009, 11:15 PM']i play to a metronome everytime I play bass[/quote] Just don't tell Jeff

There is a big point being missed here. I am a great advocate of reading but, with the exception of (increasingly rare) big band gigs and shows, rarely read whole charts on gigs. What I do a lot of, however, is reading chord charts that contain simple arrangements that require me to be able to read rhythms at least. Whilst these cannot replace the value of a rehearsal, they can enhance the value of those rehearslas by saving a lot of time and making sure that the end product is that much better than it may otherwise have been. My point is that the benefits of reading are not just about working gigs. It is also about getting the most out of learning, about making the most of rehearsal time (particularly important for those of us who are semi-pro and have to fit playing around work) and about communicating ideas quickly. It makes it possible for those of us who compose to get stuff played quickly and relatively easily without having to find musicians who are willing to dedicate weeks or months to the learning of material by rote. It has the potential to allow us to create more complex and sophisticated musics without having to rely on the staple sets that everyone continues to insist on regurgitating. I also find it makes busy musicians more able to retain details of one piece of music when there are gaps between rehearsals and performances, something that, in my experience, non-readers can struggle with particularly when working on new material.. Of course you can gig every night of the year by learning a 12-bar shuffle in E but that's not enough for me. I need something more aesthetically satisfying and I find that reading improves the potential for that. I also find readers are rarely any less capable of 'grooving' than non-readers. It is their familiarity with the idioms being played that matters, not the presence or otherwise of the dots.

I'm filling up.....

Ok - you win. I'll stop.

[quote name='chris_b' post='475600' date='Apr 29 2009, 11:30 PM']Good grief!![/quote] Sorry, mate, but the list of influential players I have not heard gets longer every year. Bass names I have not listened to for more than a few moments Larry Graham (if ever) Carol Kaye Jack Cassidy (Jefferson Airplane) Victor Wooten Oteil Burbridge (is that the spelling) Cliff Williams Tim Bogert (if ever) The Jamaroquoi players - Zender and the bloke after him Les Claypool Jerry Jemmott Louis Johnson John Myung Felix Pappalardi Chuck Rainey.... The list goes on. I also haven't read much Dickens, Steinbeck, Mailer, Shakespeare, Huxley..... I get by I learned a long time ago that a great bass player does not make for great music. I bought 'Pet Sounds' recently to see what all the fuss was about and was not impressed. Don't like 'The White Album'. Legends are usually a minority interest! So sue me.

I actually believe that a good sound is the secret to a good groove. If you just play all the right notes in all the right places, it will probably still not groove. If you do that AND have a great sound, the pocket is yours and the music comes alive.

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='475800' date='Apr 30 2009, 10:48 AM']It's a shame none of the pissed punters you play to will give a sh*t though.[/quote] The reality is that they will only notice subliminally but they will notice. I used to work (PA/lighting) with a band in Wales who had a great reputation and a very successful local career. Their reputation for having a good live experience was based on quality gear (Bose, Ovation/Adamus guitars. Trace Eliot gear (when it was good), top flight keyboards, a credible soundman, good lighting (me) and some mature musicality from the players. The punters loved it. I have no doubt that they didn't know WHY they loved it but, if the sound is good, people respond.

It shows the value of an effective MD. I think one of the things we do badly in this UK is the practice of working together as a team to ensure the best possible product. Due to circusmtances, we all tend to tolerate 'adequacy' without comment, preferring not to rock the boat (its a very British thing). A good producer of MD should be able to stand in front of a band and say stuff like: Weak sound, change your gera. Drummer is weak, replace him. Great snare sound but that ride cymbal is undermining the guitars. You guys need to tighten up your backing vocals But, I guess whenever those of us who can see/hear what is wrong mention it, egos can trip in and things can get bumpy. For me, humility is something that is cheap (not as costly as a new PA that's for sure) and deeply effective in allowing a flow of ideas and creativity. If a producer tells me to use fretted bass, I need to try it, even if I think differently. Someone needs to have the big picture in mind and it is often the case that musicians are the worst people for seeing that. So many bands struggle to improve because not everyone is pulling in the same direction. In your case, kudos to your guitarists for being big enough to let you help.

Great stuff everyone. Now do ballad! Or a love song? A lullaby? A Pavanne?

Rotosounnd Solo Bass 45s... 23 years and no fretbard wear.

Not sure I get what she is driving at. I struggle to see how you can explain chord toens without understanding teh scales they derive from and vice versa. Her criticisma of convetional classical training are credible as they really don't bother with chords but, if I am trying to explain chord tones, I relate it to a scale. The two are symbiotic. I have never heard any Kaye that I would class as memorable so have no opinion on her playing.

[quote name='Faithless' post='474968' date='Apr 29 2009, 12:29 PM']And, what do you mean by that, Bilbo? You won't prove me it any-way, that fretless suits all situations in life... [/quote] The only situation where, arguably, a fretted is better, IMO, is when you are slapping. I don't go there so the fretless wins every time. I find it delivers a better sound, warmer, fuller, more expressive, more wood and less metal (I know what that means). I am, of course, referring to the kinds of gigs I do so this is bound to be a completely subjective perspective. PS I played fretted only for the first 6 years. With a pick!