Bilbo

I had never heard of them, despite having Fux's book on my book shelf! Best I read it then?

It is not that they are inately crap - it is that there are 53 million songs out there and everyone playes those 5. Punters like them because they are passive consumers not because these compositions are particularly good. There are literally thousands of tunes that have equal levels of immediacy and are easy to play but, because people can't be arsed to look for them or to transcribe them/prepare charts, they never get an airing. Re: your two graduates from Birmingham conservatoire jazz course and the trombone player on the classical music course - in my experience, this is no guarantee of anything. People who get qualifications as players can be superb but they can also be pretty average if they lack the passion. As a self-trained musician, I am sometimes stunned by the poor playing of conservatory trained musicians. Re: snobbery - it is not the elitist in me that makes me dislike most jam sessions, it is the unwillingness of the British musicians to say 'go away and practice some more' to the more dysfunctional attendees. If someone plays like Sanborn, I will play with them, even thought he is not my favourite player. It is when they play like Sanborn's dog that I get hacked off. I suspect the standard in London is higher than it is in Ipswich

Don't know NItti but have all the rest. All great works. Good call, Rayman. Isn't Don Byron great? Have your heard Bill Frissel's 'Have A Little Faith'? Superb.

Big Bands are a great place to start. You get to hear some great arrangements and play with some more experienced players. I think they are better because you can't even sit in unless you have a few basic skills under your hands. This cuts out the non-starters and makes for a more productive use of your time. I am not complaining about people being relatively new to jazz, I am complaining about people at jam sessions that can barely get a note out of their horn let alone phrase an idea.

AAAAAAAARGH! If you want to know about jazz, stay away from jam sessions that play Canteloupe Island, Watermelon Man, Chameleon, C Jam Blues and So What! Sorry, Spike, I know what you are saying is probably true but these jam sessions are, in my experience, rarely attended by anyone that can actually play any credible jazz. Its a tragedy but most good players would either be gigging or practising at home. These tunes are horrible (I actually refuse to play the first two - ever - and the others are rarely allowed out). They are seen by many as a great introduction to jazz but they are enough to put anyone off, particularly when played by people with bad time, no technique and no credible vocabulary. I too often see people at these sessions who have not yet dealt witht he fundamentals of their instruments and who are, to all intents and purposes, delusional. Just imagine. If you were interested in seeing what jazz was about and went to one of these sessions as your forst experience; you would be put off it for life. Find something more worthy of your time. As for suggestions of what to listen to: look for my GOD, I LOVE JAZZ thread here. There are 100s of suggestions, from me and others.

The problem I have with recommendations about jazz is that it is easy to put people off by sending them off in the wrong direction and confusing them with second-rate product. The 'its all music' perspective sounds perfectly reasonable and does prevent arguments but it also stops legitimate discussion (what's wrong with arguments, anyway? - its good to argue - its only bad to fight). It also means that nothing is bad, good, great or essential listening. Of course its subjective - we all get that but to suggest that the merits of Duke Ellington or Charles Mingus are no greater that those of Kenny G or Candy Dulfer is superficial. If you want to argue Sonny Rollins over Coltrane or Wynton Kelly over Erroll Garner, I'm listening but, when discussing what constitutes good jazz, to suggest The Crusaders are as meritorious as, say, the Bill Evans Trio is to deny the historical importance of each contributor. Its not all good. Its not ok to like everything - it lacks any form of critical thinking. An open mind is a great thing but an undiscerning mind is no more valuable than an closed one. By the way, the Crusaders are OK. They just ain't great jazz....

Depends whether it is a II chord in a Bb major scale or a VI chord in a Eb major scale. Or a I chord in a C minor key or a IV chord in the key of a G minor. It could be a II chord in a melodic minor mode....... I am being facetious. A C minor chord would ususally be a II chord in the major key of Bb so you could play a Bb major scale (Bb C D Eb F G A Bb) or a C dorian (C D Eb F G A Bb C - the same thing but starting on the second note). You could also play a minor pentatonic (C Eb F G Bb) but this is just the same thing again but with the D and A left out (weaker notes of the scale). Does that help?

Again, I would urge caution. The Crusaders are not what a lot of people would call jazz - maybe pop/funk/fuzak? Not sure where to put them but jazz? I wouldn't put them very deep into that category. Its not my call but bands like these can be a bit sugary for people brought up on edgier musics like rock and punk. As I said - look around.

On the floor underneath my PC, down the back of the sofa, in that little pocket inside the r/h pocket of my jeans (but not the pair I am wearing), in the top pocket of my suit jacket, in some of my guitar cases but never the one I have with me, on the floor of my car....

It is interesting to see people's definitions of what constitutes 'jazz', both good and bad. If you find Miles boring, you are missing a trick. Try Porgy & Bess, Sketches of Spain, Miles Ahead, Birth of the Cool, Kind of Blue, Nefertitti or Miles Smiles. If you still find him boring, go get a head transplant . The stuff people have listed here as jazz is controversial. David Sanborn is considered to be a bit lightweight and enough to put anyone off for the saxophone for life. Louis Arnstrong is one type of jazz, Duke Ellington a second, Herbiw Hancock and third and Mike Stern a fourth. You may hate one or two or, indeed, all four of these but like some other jazz forms. Stern, for instance, is widely regarded to be repetitive but he is a particularly sophisticated composer and his soloing is a lot deeper than a lot of people think (try and write some down, you'll be astonished). I think, for someone like yourself, I would recommend that you spend some time rooting around your local library's jazz section, scanning YouTube etc and looking at stuff. Look for all of the people listed above, get a book on jazz and find some names, follow them up, check them out - and don't trust what anyone writes about jazz. There is some great stuff out there but it is unlikely to come to you, you have to go find it. As for seeing it live, I would urge caution in that local scenes can be very inconsistent and there is some pretty poor jazz being played out there. Look for something involving big names where the standard is going to be high but, most of all, don't stop after a few bad experiences. Jazz is a broad church and, despite having spent nearly 30 years playing and listening to it, there is plenty of stuff out there that I hate. As for easy stuff to play (and read), look here for my Milt Hinton transcription of Branford Marsalis's 'Housed From Edward'. Simple straight quarter note walking at its best. I think you can get the track as an MP3.

I was asking the same thing last night. I did a gig with a scratch band in which the keyboard player was from a nationally sucessful 80s/90s band. Hecounted every tune in at least 30&% faster than it shoudl have been and everything sounded rushed as a result. I believe that the two most important things in establishing a groove to die for are a, the SOUND (of the bass, the drums etc) and b, the tempo. If either of thise isn't right, the groove will only ever be a 'nearly but not quite'. SteveK's advice is sound.

I have a great VAO cd of arrangements of Strauss tunes - brilliantly mad. And I also really rate their guitarist Alegre Correa as a composer (his Terra Musica cd is a real favourite). I have not been able to hear a lot of Maria Schneider music as her cds are so hard to find (and v. expensive on Amazon). I really rate what she does (although I think her first teacher. Bob Brookmeyer, resonates in her arrangements more than Gil Evans)

Don't ever mention mindless noodling again! This is exquisite (the Maria Schneider Orchestra) [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJPFVF2j3ok&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJPFVF2j3ok...feature=related[/url]

Have seen Seb but not seen or heard Polar Bear. Will check them out. Just listening to Leafcup. Interesting grooves and textures - a kind of mix between Mingus and Medeski, Martin & Wood. I like it. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZwvH24lRSk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZwvH24lRSk[/url]

I always recommend Mark Levine's 'Jazz Theory Book'. It has a nice clear lay out and is easy to follow and is not just for jazz players so don't let the title put you off. Where are you? There may be someone near you on here who can help.

Me too. Have used it to help manage some hand and arm problems I have experienced. WHilst it did not cure, it certainly stopped it getting worse. Highly recommended.

Some marvellous recommendations for Big Band listening: Bob Mintzer – Camoflague Duke Ellington – And His Mother Called Him Bill Kenny Wheeler –Music For Large And Small Ensemble Dave Holland – Overtime Dave Murray Latin Big Band – Now Is Another Time Dave Grusin – West Side Story Loose Tubes – Delightful Precipice Miles Davis/Gil Evans – Miles Ahead Count Basie – w. Manhattan Transfer - Vocalese Mingus Big Band – Live In Time Michel Camilo – One More Once Anyone got any more?

Wouldn't that be 'Third Time Lucky'? Break a leg!

Being a musician attracts a wide variety of individuals and the agendas of each of them is different. Wayne Shorter took up the saxophone because it was shiny, others did it because it got them girls. Some people are attracted to the romantic idea that they are an 'artist' (I know I am) and, like the artist/musicians they read about, they like (need?) to think of themselves as 'uncompromising' and project themselves accordingly. Their self image is an essential part of who they are and they need to maintain that at all costs (its a common human trait). So, given the scenarios we are talking about, it is inevitable that some people are going to be in a 'bad space'. Some can't wait to gig because they want to be seen and so are out there before they are gig ready. Some never want to gig because they are so frightened of failure that the rehearsals are never good enough for them to acknowledge that the band is ready to take that next step. The glamour of this industry, in all its complex forms, is what keeps it going but it is also what creates the problems you are describing. It is people politics and it is not just confined to bands. You 'just want to play'. Others may want to play well; others to play to a level of excellence that is all but unattainable. Some just like the social aspect of being in a band and 'talk a good gig' others will always be there, on time and ready to play. Like all groups of people, the human dynamics are profound and need careful managing. Lots of egos in a room each pushing their own agendas will always lead to friction of some sort but this needs to be (and can be) managed if you are able to stand back and figure out what motivates people, individually and collectively (you would be amazed at how many people are afraid of success). Its about learning to compromise and about finding ways to disagree without being disagreeable. Politics, as it is being described here, is an inevitable part of working with groups of people. I think 'human dynamics' covers it better as 'politics' implies something machiavellian and none of this is about manipulation.

Sorry Bremen. All that power wen to my head....

I have a Status Energy 6 string and hate it - it sounds all electrical and stuff. But, basswise, it would appear that I am a one bass man so that Status just hangs there gathering dust. As for slapping it, the way it plays, I'm just as likely to kick its head in....

Good work, SteveO, although I would recommend people look at other Bach pieces - this one has been played to death by players the world over

Made me angry. Heard most of it before but the bit I got annoyed at was the fact that we had a long interview with Charlie Haden, stories about Eugene Wright (who?) and the usual 'wasn't Mingus angry' anecdotes but, again, no memtion of Paul Chambers. Same old, same old.

He used to go over to a young Paul Chambers' house and give him lessons. He da man!

Don't learn improvisation/soloing from bass players. Try other instruments; sax, trumpet, trombone (good for similar range) piano (guitar is another one to avoid becuase it is sometimes too pattern oritenated andsimilar to bass. As for jazz, don't try to learn it. Its for real men who can grow facial hair.