Bilbo

And different necks and different string spacing. All of which make a minimal difference to the final product - the music. All I am saying (and some of you are taking all of this far too seriously) is that the main motivation, from where I am sitting, is aestheic - i.e. having a lovely bespoke thing that you can point at and say 'mine'. If that is the case, fine (I studied Art at Diploma level too so pretty things matter to me to). I just think its a bit superficial and has little to do with the thing that matters to me, the music. And, with very few exceptiosn, I like the look of most basses so it matters not a lot

Andy's argument is credible but, in resposne, I would have to say that the difference between solidbody/hollowbody/steel strung/nylon strung/12-string guitars is quite marked. They are, to all intents and purposes, as different as, say, a piano and a harpsichord or a trumpet and flugelhorn. The difference between a fretted and fretless bass is also quite marked. But I struggle to hear any discernable difference between, say, a Fender Jazz and A Fender Precision THAT CANNOT BE RADICALLY CHANGED BY TWEAKING A KNOB OR TWO ON THE AMP. Now I can accept that there is a difference between Jaco's Jazz and Steve Harris' Precision sound bit, if they swapped basses, they would still sound like Jaco and Harris not Harris and Jaco. People like Jimmy Haslip change bass every six months but, bearing in mind I don't follow Haslip's career, his bass sound on cds is not massively altered by the change. Same with Chris Squire and his choices over the years. Yes there are subtle differences but nothing that really impacts significantly on the finsihed product i.e. the music. Its a bit like having Keith Jarrett insisting on having a Steinway replaced by a Bosendorfer before he can play. There may be a subtle difference that 2 people in the world can hear but, fundamentally, they both sound like pianos and the bits that are differenct are inconsequential to 99% of their audience.

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='626110' date='Oct 14 2009, 03:36 PM']Maybe this is not the case and it's entirely my distorted grasp of this thread but I believe the provocation has been quite deliberate and is coming from a slightly 'better than' stance. Many bass players have offered a valid alternative position that seems to me to be discounted.[/quote] Of course its deliberate, why would I start it accidently As for it coming from a 'better than' stance, trust me, its really not that important

Its all in his fingers. I have heard him on Warwicks and Wals and he always sounds like Percy Jones. Marvellous player. I heard that he did use an effect that increased the flange effect as you increased the pitch of a note. He built it himself I believe and it is not commercially available. What do I know.

[quote name='Sibob' post='625838' date='Oct 14 2009, 11:25 AM']I'd actually be very interested to know, and obviously I don't want this to happen, if your Wal suddenly became unavailable forever, what you would end up playing? . If you couldn't find another Wal, you wouldn't have a bass made to the same spec?![/quote] I'd go to somewhere like The Gallery, knob about for 2 or 3 hours and make a decision. My only 'must have' would be the fretless thing. But, yes, I would look for a Wal as a default position and start there. But, equally, if someone said here is another bass that sounds good, I would be cool with that. I would not go for a custom build because I couldn't be bothered with the wait and, to be blunt, wouldn't know what to ask for. If I lost my bass and had no money I would play whatever I could beg or borrow (I wouldn't steal one). I spoke to Martin 'Sei' Peterson at The Gallery once and he made reference to the 'old' technology used in the Wal pick-ups as opposed to the 'new' technology used in Sei's. Like I give a rat's... If it sounds good, it is (I would play a Sei if it sounded good). The technology is unimportant; its the sound that matters. Even the feel of the neck only matters to me for about 10 minutes

There's nothing wrong with any of this. I am just trying to save people a lot of hassle chasing things thay probably already have. 'The main problem with finding your own path is in recognising that you are already on it' - Mick Goodrick

[quote name='Sibob' post='625783' date='Oct 14 2009, 10:20 AM']My intellectual beef is till that you play a hand-built, (comparatively) fancy wood fretless, and you're asking why people bother with custom basses!? . You ordered a Wal surely for one of these reasons: 1) You couldn't find a bass that had the fit/feel from a production-line instrument 2) The Wal offered parts/features and a sound that wasn't available anywhere else.[/quote] I bought it because it was a professional standard instrument with a good reputation and I tried a couple of stock instruments and liked them. At that time I hadn't tried Alembics or Fenders or Gibsons or any other professional ranges. I had only played the local basses you find in local shops. Hondo, Aria Pro II etc. The Wals were probably the first proper grown up basses I had ever played. The points you list above had absolutely no part to play in my decision whatsoever. Remember, this was 1986 and I lived in Cwmbran in Gwent. There wasn't even a train to Cardiff then! The range of choices available to a 20 year old that couldn't drive at that time was very limited. [quote name='Sibob' post='625783' date='Oct 14 2009, 10:20 AM']And I'm still asking you what you believe to be 'Custom', because seeing as Wal and Alembic aren't, I'm assuming it also rules out Sei, ACG etc etc because they offer standard models!? [/quote] Absolutely. If someone goes into The Gallery and buys a Sei off the wall, even if the bass was originally put together as a complete custom job, the 'new' owner is buying 'off the peg' i.e. taking a credible professional instrument 'as is' and making it work for him/her. If its handbuilt, fine. If its machine built, fine. Its all academic. The aspect of all of this that I am 'challenging' is the practice of individuals specifying the minutiae of a new build to their own exacting standards vs just getting a great instrument and spending some quality time with it in order to make it sing. My Wal could have been built by magic gnomes from fairyland for all I care but the bass I bought in 1986 is the one I play today. The only changes are strings and batteries and one set up 8 years ago (the intonation had slipped). Its the practising that makes its play good, not the mahogany.

In spite of the various suggestions about my motives, my point has always been that the bass you buy off the shelf may feel or sound a little 'better' than another instrument, but, if you spend more than an quarter of an hour with any professional standard model, you will begin to learn how to get teh best out of it. In my simple universe, any one of the 8 tone controls on my Eden amp has the power to influence my sound far more than the wood that my bass is made of. And that is before you get into high ceilings, concrete floors, tiles vs carpets and crap cymbals. I am a great believer in working with the tools you have to make your sound as good as it can be and not in acquiring more tools in an effort to 'buy' the sound you want (unless, of course, its a specific effect like a chorus or delay etc). The 'why not buy a Squier' argument is as provocative as my original post. There is a bottom line here and the quality of a bass is bound to be affected by universally poor quality materials but, IMO, if the core of the instrument is of a certain standard, you should be able to make it work. There are hundreds of examples of great musicians making marvellous music with relatively cheap gear. And a small point to note. If an issue has been debated before, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be revisited. I have never discussed this issue before, as far as I can recall, so I reserve the right to raise it here and to engage in an identical debate to the ones which have already been rehearsed. If you have exhausted the debate in your own mind, then go start another thread on something you are currently mulling over and leave those that want to discuss this particular issue to do so in peace.

[quote name='BassBod' post='625190' date='Oct 13 2009, 04:38 PM']I never regarded Wals as custom basses -[/quote] I agree - nothing custom about them.

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='625189' date='Oct 13 2009, 04:38 PM']Add to that the fact that my basses are my hobby as well as my living. (Yes, I am a very boring man!) And yes, I do know what they're all made from. And it may not matter to Joe Public, but it does matter to me.[/quote] But all of your basses are stock, right? So there is no contradiction here?

[quote name='Sibob' post='625167' date='Oct 13 2009, 04:24 PM']Why did you order a Wal? [/quote] I played 3, liked them all because they were consistent and they had a good rep. Paid £740 (+£20 for a second-hand hard case). Now worth 4x that but not for sale.

[quote name='Sibob' post='625133' date='Oct 13 2009, 03:59 PM']So why don't you play a Squier Custom Vibe?? Apparently they're quite good! Si[/quote] Says who?

My actual belief is that many people who go for custom instruments do so, at least subconsiously, for vanity reasons, for some sense that, by having a custom instrument they are, in some way, superior. Or is it because they believe that the gold plated widget with their name on will make them play better? I am not sure but I don't hear many 'pre' and 'post-custom' changes in sound. Steve Swallow always sounds like Steve Swallow. Jeff Berlin always sounds like Jeff Berlin, whatever custom instrument they play. Its all a bit odd if you ask me (whcih you didn't so, please, forgive me).

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='625067' date='Oct 13 2009, 03:02 PM']I agree, I can't see the point. I mean I can spend my money buying an off the peg bass built from non carefully selected woods, produced on a CNC machine, using materials and in a manner to predominantly save money. A bass designed for Mr Average with in house electronics, again to save cost, a one piece neck for the joy of truss rod use, something the same as the next guy. Painted to cover up the flaws and joins in the wood. So what's the point in wasting the same money getting something crafted to your own personal taste, a stiffer laminated neck and fretboard/neck profile tailored to your preference, pickups and electronics to suit your taste, something unique that you personally had a part in creating, something different that suits your sense of self. Something out of the ordinary, not of the masses. Come on Mr Bilbo, you can do better than that surely [/quote] That's a flawed argument, GK. If a manufacturer is cutting costs by economies of scale, fine, that applies to all areas of any business. If an independent is not able to do that, you are being charged for every bit of the process (e.g. design, neck profiling etc) so, by definition, they will be making a disproportionately expensive or inferior product, surely. The cost/quality argument is a fragile link to rely on. Of course, a manufacturer will have its budget lines (re: paint covering bad quality wood etc) but, with minimal research, most of us can tell the difference between a Squier and a top fo the range Fender. For me, the quality of an instrument is determined only by what noises it makes. The rest is furniture. If I can't HEAR the quality, it is of no particular importance. And for most of these bespoke custom jobs, I hear nothing that makes me think 'its because its a custom job' or anything that I couldn't hear from a stock Fender etc.

[quote name='metaltime' post='625055' date='Oct 13 2009, 02:51 PM']So you have never needed to say I wish this pickup was nearer the bridge or i wish the strings were a touch closer at the bridge etc?[/quote] Nope. Nothing - not a single thing (other than 1 change of string brand v. early on).

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='625027' date='Oct 13 2009, 02:34 PM']Do you mean bespoke custom instruments, built to spec, or say an off-the-peg Roscoe like mine?[/quote] Custom jobs of the bespoke variety (My Wal Custon was, ironically, 'off the peg' and bought mail order . I just don't get all the fussing abut with ths wood vs. that.... Guitarist Eric Johnson is renowned for being able to tell what type of battery is in his pedals. Can anyone really tell what type of wood a bass is made if? Or what the nut is made of? Or whether there is a zero fret? Or if its a through neck or bolt on? They all just sound like basses to me.

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='625032' date='Oct 13 2009, 02:36 PM']Has something changed?[/quote] Moi?

I am not a particularly expert in the mysteries of bass design but, having played one of the damn things for nearly 30 years (literally one of them, the same bass for over 23 of them), I struggle to see the value of spending vast sums of money on expensive custom jobs. There are only two legitimate reasons for doing this, in my eyes, one is for cosmetic reasons (like Gene Simmons 'axe' basses or the bloke from Slade's 'gun' bass, for instance) or for specific technical reasons like needing an 11-string to explore your muse. I see some lovely looking basses on here being custom designed and have glanced superficially at long posts about how it all comes together. It is all very exciting but, fundamentally, I struggle to see the point. I have always struggled to understand why musicians can't be satisfied with 'off the peg' instruments. I get that this pick up is different from that one and a maple neck feels different to a rosewood one etc but, from where I am standing, none of these basses sound remarkable enough to have warranted the expense. Most of them sound like a bass. Brilliant. But why isn't a Jazz/Precision/Wal/Warwick/Alembic/whatever etc good enough? Double bass players tend to get a bass and stick to it (Paul Chambers, Ron Carter, Marc Johnson, Scott LaFaro, Mingus etc all played one bass through most of their careers and only replaced them if they were damaged or stolen). Same with sax players, trumpeters etc. Many pianists play a different instrument every night. So what's it all about, peeps? Is it just vanity

This is a problem on my version of Sibelius, too. My version is old, however, so newer updates may have resolved this.

Errrr.. first believe in God.... I wasn't aware that 'Gospel' had to be a style anymore. I thought it was about content not genres and that you can have Christian folk music, Christian Metal, Christian Funk, Christian Bale (oops! What is he doing in here).... I always think of 'Gospel' as an attitude not a genre. What do I know? Heathen bustard....

Bought my Wal Custon Fretless on 25th April 1986 and it is still my main squeeze. I have other basses for fretted/low B work but have not gigged with another bass since around 1990. It still sounds great and no other bass has turned by head since. If I had the wonga, I would order a fretless 5 today. Hear the bass here! [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=42836&st=20"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=42836&st=20[/url] And see it here! [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=42836&st=20"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=42836&st=20[/url]

Nice production. The singer is great. Some nice touches in the arrangements and a nice fretless sound. Its a good product.

I just put my fingers where the note is. Seriously, though, I recommend people play the bass with their ears and not their eyes. I know thw fretlines are where the note is supposed to be etc but I also wouldn't rely on it in place of my ears (same with the dots on the side of the neck). Its the notes that matter not the technology. If you are not fretting consistently on/behind/in front of the lines, to me, the lines are in the wrong place, surely? That's why I went for an unlined fretless. Its all academic if you are reading a chart or utilisiing eye contact as a means of cueing yourselves.

Suffolk is chock full of us! WElcome.

I did a gig once where this Polish guy (I knew him) starts having a go at his missus at the back of the bar and six Portuguese guys grabbed him three on each side, picked him up kicking and screaming, walked him through the crowd carrying him above their heads (I had to turn sideways to let them past - I was still playing) out into the street, laid him on the floor and walked back in, leaving the bouncer to prevent his re-entry into the venue. No anger, no grief, no blood and guts, just assertive removal. Noone got hurt, even the Polish guy. It was a lesson in mature crowd control. Beautiful. I like Portuguese people - they know how to have a good time without getting leary.