Bilbo

I think there is a lot of value in spending time practising what you are going to play (genius, eh?). A lot of jazzers turn up at gigs and do 'standards', some of which they know better than others, some of which they don't know at all and they are reading charts/dots. Whilst study will allow you to make huge progress in making the best of these 'opportunities', your ear will only really help you if you are at least superficially aware of the tunes structure and know the melody. Often, you will only know what mode to play after a little bit of trial and error. A couple of mashed choruses early on in a tune is not uncommon in small group jazz - you are nearer nailing it by the end but not always - I did a tune last night that I hadn't heard before and made a complete dog's breakfast out of it. Try 'jamming' a Wayne Shorter tune cold - ouch! The concept of a musician 'hearing' the changes and nailing it is shrouded in myth and it can feel sometimes as if those of us who can't nail 'Lush Life' by ear without hearing it first are, in some way, second rate. But the modes you use over specific chords are dependent on the logic of the composition. The logic of 'Giant Steps' is harder to 'hear' cold that that of, say, 'All Of Me' or 'Moanin' so, without practice and time spend with a piece, it is likely that you are going to make assumptions about the best choices and consequently flounder. The difference between a hard tune and an easy one is often little more than the amount of time you have spend with it. The choice of modes is no small part of that.

Is your transcription notes only or have you worked out the harmonies as well? Transcribing the notes a bass player plays only has limited value unless you are able to put it together with the composition's harmonic structure. I once transcribed Jeff Berlin's 'Bach ' solo off 'Pump It' but I didn't work out the harmony. I have always thought of that as a wasted opportunity on my part (I lost the transcription a long time ago and don't really want to do it again; you live & learn!)

Sorry if I have offended anyone (not really ) but I do think that playing music without knowledge and as a process of trial and error is a fools errand; like trying to learn a language just by going to cafes and ordering coffee. I work with lots of musicians, trained and untrained, and the educated ones are better; why would I believe any different. Anyway, dlloyd has got it covered but I just wanted to add another factor. If you know the modes, you can use them to create additional tension by using chromatic passing notes. If, however, you don't know the modes, the passing notes won't make sense and the logic of you lines will be fatally flawed. Horn players do this a lot; Coltrane's solo on 'Blue Trane' is a good example. There is a part where he plays a figure based on a Dorian minor but he uses leading notes that are not diatonic. Using the B as a lead in note; try this (played eighths or 16ths) against a Cmin7 B C Eb D Csharp D F Eb D Eb G F E(natural) F A G Fsharp G B A Gsharp A C B Asharp B D C etc. Half these notes are not in the Dorian mode but do help create a great sense of forward motion, of urgency and intensity. I will try and get this onto a pdf when I get a chance but have a go in the meantime and let me know how you get on. PS dlloyds altered dominant is one of the most useful scales for contemporary jazz. Marvelous!

[quote name='dlloyd' post='382785' date='Jan 16 2009, 08:19 PM']m7b5 surely?[/quote] Yup - edited accordingly

Yes, Alun. You are right. WIll amend! (trouble is I was doing it away from my bass)

Supplementary information: Chord scale for a Melodic minor scale in C C min/maj7 D m7 Eb Maj7sharp5 F 7sharp11 G 7 A m7b5 B m7b5 Chord scale for a Harmonic minor in C C min/Maj7 D m7b5 Eb Maj7sharp5 F min7 G 7b9 Ab Maj7sharp11 B dim This is off the top of my head so please correct me if I have got it wrong.

I have this. It is pretty much a must have for a developing jazzer and marvelous for advanced reading practice. RHythmically sophistiacted, interesting lines avoiding the comfort zones created by reading ordinary bass parts. Well worth the small change it costs to buy.

[quote name='jakesbass' post='380325' date='Jan 14 2009, 03:22 PM']Learning which notes from those scales serve bass playing and the music well is where the work lies in this subject.[/quote] Relatively easy to learn and a lifetime to master.

[quote name='Golchen' post='380004' date='Jan 14 2009, 09:43 AM']Bilbo: If you're still around - why do you use Mixo and Dorian? I assume that it's a case of Mixo for major chords and Dorian for minor, but how are you deciding that?[/quote] Mixolydian, I tend to use for dominant 7 chords (which has a major triad but NOT a major seventh - that woudl be the ). However, some dominant sevenths have extensions because they are not 5ths of a major scale but, say, 4th of a melodc minor (that would have a sharp 4/11). Broadly speaking, your core notes (chordal tones) define the name of a chord so F A C Eb would be F7 but the chords around it (i.e. its context) are what define your modal choices. So if the F7 resolves to a minor chord a 5th down, it would be more likely to have an alteration like a sharp 9 or flat 9 which would change your modal choice than if it resolved to a major. Dorian is just the most common minor mode in jazz (phrygian and aeolian less so). A good eample would be the opening 5 chords of 'All The Things You Are': Fm7 Bbm7 Eb7 Abmaj Dbmaj7 If you break down the modes; it can be interpreted as Aeolian minor, Dorian minor, Mixolydian, Ionian major, Lydian major. It is, however, just as easy t look at it as one key centre; Ab major. Its whatever makes you sound better, hipper, more edgy. Its all about choices - you could throw in blue notes, chrmoatics etc and make it sound really far out or you could stay with the Ab major and bore me rigid ; its those choices and the players intimacy with those options that makes for a creative and interesting improviser.

In an effort to be helpful, if any of you are experiencing difficulties with space or are considering going travelling etc, I would be perfectly willing to look after anyone's Wal Mk2 5-string Fretless free of charge for as long as you like. I would, of course, use it in order to ensure that the electronics don't seize up. Please PM me if I can be of any assitance .

If I play a 12 bar blues in F F///Bb///F////F/// Bb///Bb///F///D7/// Gm7///C7///F////F/// I would play F mixolydian for one bar followed by one bar of Bb mixolydian followed by 2 bars of F Mixolydian Then two bars of Bb Mixolydian, one bar of F mixolydian and on bar of D mixolydian Then one bar of G Dorian, one bar of C mixolydian and two bars of F mixolydian. Or if I was playing 'So What' by Miles Davis: 16 bars Dm, 8 bars Eb minor and 8 bars of Dm, I would base my lines and solos around 16 bars D Dorian, 8 bars Eb Dorian and 8 bars of D Dorian. That's abit of a simplifcatoion but its a good example.

'False Metal"????!!!! :lol: Who are the worst exponents of 'False Jazz'?: Kenny G? Van Morrison? Diana Krall?

I use them 100% of the time on everything thing I play and woudl consider anyone who doesn't know them to be floundering around in the dark, relatively speaking. A mode is simply a scale starting from a different point so a C major scale is CDEFGABC (also known as the Ionian mode) Its Dorian mode starts on the 2nd note of the major scale D = DEFGABCD Its Phrygian Mode on the 3rd/E = EFGABCDE Its Lydian mode on the 4th/F = FGABCDEF Mixolydian on the 5th/G = GABCDEFG Aeolian (relative minor) on the 6th/A = ABCDEFGBA Locrian on B/7th = BCDEFGAB And back to the C But its all still the C major scale. You can do this with every key centre so the Dorian mode of F is G, of B its Csharp and so on. You can do the same with the melodic minor scale etc and it works on the same principle. Its not as complicated as it sounds but very, very useful.

Its the music that matters, not the instruments. You play that guitar as much as you like, young Skywalker.... I used to hate Tele's but I played one recently that a guitar friend of mine had just bought and it played and sounded great. It has a rosewood fingerboard which would have made a difference for me as I have a preference for rosewood fingerboards on guitars. When I get around to buying a solidbody, I could be tempted.... PS Jazz is great!

Carol Kaye plays all my basslines.

[quote name='pete.young' post='373578' date='Jan 7 2009, 10:08 PM']Bilbo, are you still doing that job for Gione?[/quote] On paper but we've had no gigs for a while (that bar decided they couldn't afford us). On the look out for more but, more interestingly, I have convinced Gione to try an alternative line-up of him, bass and sax/flute - less thuggish! Would go down a blinder in restaraunts etc! Rob

I posted a few transcriptions recently and have just noticed that they have been downloaded 146 times by users of this forum. That's great because that was why I posted them. But, pertinent to this discussion, that's 146 people who have access to something many others here have not. I think that's a shame, that's all.

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='374856' date='Jan 9 2009, 10:16 AM']I'm wasting my life, aren't I?[/quote] Only you can answer that See, I can read and I gig all over East Anglia with musicians that are generally as poorly paid as I am. Truth is, I haven't done a proper reading gig in 4 years. It's not the gigs thing, WoT, its the learnin'. I go on the net and there are hundreds of thousands of transcriptions of great music that provide so much information that we can all use to make ourselves more informed, creative, expert etc. If you can read, you can access it and use it quickly. If you can't, you can't. Its just a shame, that's all. Also, musicians that read can communicate their ideas to other musicians that read much more quickly so you can more quickly get on with the business of making a noise. And its actually not that hard to do.

Nope, you're right, you don't need it. All you actually need is food, water and shelter. You can gig forever without it. Brillo pads. But what if you had it?

You gotta, mate. You really have. It opens up a world of possibilities. Do it!

I have been thinking about this a lot lately. You gotta read, guys, you just gotta. Do it. Now. Start learning today.

And where is the section on how to read music?

Grrrrrrrrrr!

I do envy you. I did some hand/arm damage playing a badly set up UB in the late 1990s and have never recovered (it still causes problems now - I have an adapted computer keyboard in front of me because of it). I wish I knew then what I know now but life lets us down sometimes. Oi Vey! Anyway, welcome to the world of jazz and good luck. Look up Paula Gardiner on the net. She has some great cds out there (a recent trio recording with Lee Goodall and Mark O'Connor is really special) and she can't be more than six stone soaking wet. Also Melissa Slocum with Ralph Peterson's Fo'tet; she's another great bass player. And, of course, Esperanza Spalding, who is the new kid on the block (not heard her yet, myself). Good luck.

Just don't get me on 'Mustang Sally'!! Oscar South - apologies if you find my perspectives to be absolute tripe but you made the cardinal error of taking me seriously. I do try to be reasonable and considered at all times and give a measured response to any serious debate. But, on this occasion, I thought I would have a little mischevious fun at the expense of one of the most objectional human beings in music. I guess the amount of money that 'Moondance' has brought him over the last 30 years will provide some comfort to 'Van' when he is faced with this unsolicited onslaught from the Suffolk quarter and I am sure he will cope. Keep safe!